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[smah]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

smah wrote...

So there's been some speculation about the whole 1M1 thing, and I'm really intrigued about that.

I don't know how to post pics, but if you watch this



at about 10 seconds you can see the 1m1 again, and again, it's reversed. Notice that' it's on the LEFT side, the side of the control option with the supposedly Paragon and TIM option. At 4:08 roughly, we see the 1m1 again, but this time, it's the not mirrored. Notice that it's on the RIGHT side with the supposedly Renegade and Anderson option.

I'm totally digging the indoctrination theory even though I doubt Bioware actually went that route. Nonetheless, it's pretty interesting.

Why is 1M1 up there in the first place?

That catalyst said no organic has ever been there.

Because Shepard is standing on the Crucible, which was built using Alliance - and other species' - materials. 

No, he's standing in the Citadel. At the beginning, Shep asks the Catalyst "Where am I?" and the Catalyst explicitly replies "the Citadel. It's my home."

[balance5050]

Read this carefully guys, its a description of indoctrination, notice anything familiar?

http://i.imgur.com/74Nka.jpg

[GOODKyle]

Candidate 88766 wrote...



So you think that Bioware would end the game before the actual end of the story?

Well the newer adaptation of Prince of Persia did and this is EA we're talking about. The people who started the online pass thing. 

[CollegeLad]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but all through the exposition with the catalyst, Shepard doesn't have a gun in his/her hand. The moment you gain control of Shepard, the gun appears. Don't know if that's just lazy programming or part of that dreamlike process. Also, doesn't the planet the Normandy crashes on look like Sur'Kesh?
For what it's worth, I'm completely on board with this idea. Makes it seem like Bioware may have actually planned this ending out. Not saying it's not a dick move, but for what it's worth I'd pay a little to see the 'true' ending, if this wasn't it.

[Candidate 88766]

GOODKyle wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...



So you think that Bioware would end the game before the actual end of the story?

Well the newer adaptation of Prince of Persia did and this is EA we're talking about. The people who started the online pass thing. 

Prince of Persia wasn't made by Bioware.

EA don't decide the story. 

[XIXmaximus]

Lol just some people who were butt hurt so bad from the initial shock that they don't want to renounce their insta-rage to actually make educated guesses instead of just assuming bioware would fail this badly after making a series that rivals most award winning movie epics.

[XIXmaximus]

CollegeLad wrote...

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but all through the exposition with the catalyst, Shepard doesn't have a gun in his/her hand. The moment you gain control of Shepard, the gun appears. Don't know if that's just lazy programming or part of that dreamlike process. Also, doesn't the planet the Normandy crashes on look like Sur'Kesh?
For what it's worth, I'm completely on board with this idea. Makes it seem like Bioware may have actually planned this ending out. Not saying it's not a dick move, but for what it's worth I'd pay a little to see the 'true' ending, if this wasn't it.

THIS

you're right....it is illogical to think that this company would overlook so many things, bug out in  so many instances, and completely butcher the ending to their flagship saga without some form plan.  They are amazing writers, they aren't perfect, but they aren't idiots.

[Candidate 88766]

The main argument that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that game explicitly tells you that Shepard's defeat of the Reapers has turned him into a legend. Thats about as blatant as Bioware could be in telling you that you defeated the Reapers.

I don't get why people are so adamant about this idea. Its worse than the current endings - it invalidates every choice by making it so Shepard fails no matter what - he falls under the Reapers' influence. At least with the current endings you actually beat the Reapers, despite them being poorly explained, essentially reliant on magic, and providing poor closure for the characters. Shepard being indoctrinated would mean that the Reapers win and the Cycle continues regardless of what you do.

[Worufu]

I know this was probably said a hundred times already, but...
The biggest support of Indoctrination Theory is in the game already. The 20 second clip in the Destruction ending. The concrete rubble is a big hint. And the way Shepard catches his/her breath? This is just personal opinion, but it's like someone is waking up. From a many kilometers long fall from Citadel to Earth, not burning in atmosphere reentry or suffocating and freezing in the vacuum of space? Uh, no.
It's more like someone who is waking up from a really, really bad dream. Nightmare, even. This sort of 'jumpstart' single breath doesn't give me the 'oh look, you survived, yay! ME4!' vibe.
And yes, I really want Indoctrination Theory to be true. I chose, after a long, long thinking process the 'Destruction' as my first (and canon for my Shep) choice. And lots, lots of points are very good. And valid. And things we could call 'hints' are here and there...just thinking about everything brings chills up my spine!

[Rawgrim]

Worufu wrote...

I know this was probably said a hundred times already, but...
The biggest support of Indoctrination Theory is in the game already. The 20 second clip in the Destruction ending. The concrete rubble is a big hint. And the way Shepard catches his/her breath? This is just personal opinion, but it's like someone is waking up. From a many kilometers long fall from Citadel to Earth, not burning in atmosphere reentry or suffocating and freezing in the vacuum of space? Uh, no.
It's more like someone who is waking up from a really, really bad dream. Nightmare, even. This sort of 'jumpstart' single breath doesn't give me the 'oh look, you survived, yay! ME4!' vibe.
And yes, I really want Indoctrination Theory to be true. I chose, after a long, long thinking process the 'Destruction' as my first (and canon for my Shep) choice. And lots, lots of points are very good. And valid. And things we could call 'hints' are here and there...just thinking about everything brings chills up my spine!

It would also explain why your military strength would influence Shep`s death or not. Why would that be a factor if he gets blown up on the Citadel. It would, however, make sense if Shep is laying on the streets of London.

[segfaulthunter]

Rawgrim wrote...

It would also explain why your military strength would influence Shep`s death or not. Why would that be a factor if he gets blown up on the Citadel. It would, however, make sense if Shep is laying on the streets of London.

QFT

[Candidate 88766]

Rawgrim wrote...

Worufu wrote...

I know this was probably said a hundred times already, but...
The biggest support of Indoctrination Theory is in the game already. The 20 second clip in the Destruction ending. The concrete rubble is a big hint. And the way Shepard catches his/her breath? This is just personal opinion, but it's like someone is waking up. From a many kilometers long fall from Citadel to Earth, not burning in atmosphere reentry or suffocating and freezing in the vacuum of space? Uh, no.
It's more like someone who is waking up from a really, really bad dream. Nightmare, even. This sort of 'jumpstart' single breath doesn't give me the 'oh look, you survived, yay! ME4!' vibe.
And yes, I really want Indoctrination Theory to be true. I chose, after a long, long thinking process the 'Destruction' as my first (and canon for my Shep) choice. And lots, lots of points are very good. And valid. And things we could call 'hints' are here and there...just thinking about everything brings chills up my spine!

It would also explain why your military strength would influence Shep`s death or not. Why would that be a factor if he gets blown up on the Citadel. It would, however, make sense if Shep is laying on the streets of London.

It would be a terrible way to end the series though. Cutting off whilst the Reaper war is still going on, the Crucible is yet to arrive and the Citadel is still sealed.

[GOODKyle]

Also, thanks to a commentee on my video...if you don't have enough EMS, the only option that appears in the ending is the Control one. So maybe war assets make Shepard stronger as well and give him the ability to choose the Destroy ending (break the indoctrination)?

[XIXmaximus]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The main argument that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that game explicitly tells you that Shepard's defeat of the Reapers has turned him into a legend. Thats about as blatant as Bioware could be in telling you that you defeated the Reapers.

I don't get why people are so adamant about this idea. Its worse than the current endings - it invalidates every choice by making it so Shepard fails no matter what - he falls under the Reapers' influence. At least with the current endings you actually beat the Reapers, despite them being poorly explained, essentially reliant on magic, and providing poor closure for the characters. Shepard being indoctrinated would mean that the Reapers win and the Cycle continues regardless of what you do.

You're right...in only one way.  Yes, the stargazer says that he's a legend.  But its also blatently proven that this scene is a seperate segment in the ending. And that it is FAR in the future....which means that there is a gap that needs to be filled, which obviously will hold Shep beating the reapers anyway (which is supported by the stargazer agreeing to tell "one more story")  The TRUE fans are adament about this idea because they don't want to just sit around holding their butt hole and crying about crappy endings when there is empirical and physical evidence that proves otherwise.

[Rawgrim]

GOODKyle wrote...

Also, thanks to a commentee on my video...if you don't have enough EMS, the only option that appears in the ending is the Control one. So maybe war assets make Shepard stronger as well and give him the ability to choose the Destroy ending (break the indoctrination)?

It would add confidence.

[spartain999]

sorry this doesn't make complete sense its a good vid and has some good points but i have one reason why it doesn't make sense.

if this entire thing is you indoctrinated what is the point of taking over the reapers. it serves no purpose for the reaper to let them do that. also u said that that he never left earth when you chose to destroy the reapers. how do u destroy them if you never went to the Citadel also if you never went to the Citadel how do you achieve the control or synthesis. lastly Indoctrination would be him just dreaming dieing on the ground he would have to have actually had to go to the citadel and done something for the Indoctrination theory to make sense.

sorry its a good idea but there are way to many holes in your theory im still trying to figure out the true ideas of this ending currently i believe it to be that because of all the destruction of this cycles civilization and the destruction of the mass relays that the stargazer from after the credit are the next generation of galactic civilization who believe Shepard to be there god( as the kid calls him the Shepard and we refer to god as the shepard as well) because he freed them from reaper and the synthesis or whatever you chose to do. the reference to more stories of the shepard can be dlc or prequels to the game. he also the star gazer says that the story happen a long long time go and that some of the information has been lost/change /misinterpreted.

[Candidate 88766]

So according to ME3's official Twitter account, the endings are open for interpretation.

I still don't buy the idea that Shepard is indoctrinated, and if he was I think its an even worse ending that what we have, but if the people that made the story are saying its up for interpretation I don't think there will ever be agreement over what the actual ending is.

I've already decided to ignore the Normandy crashing on a random planet. That didn't happen.

[XIXmaximus]

GOODKyle wrote...

Also, thanks to a commentee on my video...if you don't have enough EMS, the only option that appears in the ending is the Control one. So maybe war assets make Shepard stronger as well and give him the ability to choose the Destroy ending (break the indoctrination)?

yup...the same concept applied in me2....make sure the crew is ready enough or people will die.

[Rawgrim]

spartain999 wrote...

sorry this doesn't make complete sense its a good vid and has some good points but i have one reason why it doesn't make sense.

if this entire thing is you indoctrinated what is the point of taking over the reapers. it serves no purpose for the reaper to let them do that. also u said that that he never left earth when you chose to destroy the reapers. how do u destroy them if you never went to the Citadel also if you never went to the Citadel how do you achieve the control or synthesis. lastly Indoctrination would be him just dreaming dieing on the ground he would have to have actually had to go to the citadel and done something for the Indoctrination theory to make sense.

sorry its a good idea but there are way to many holes in your theory im still trying to figure out the true ideas of this ending currently i believe it to be that because of all the destruction of this cycles civilization and the destruction of the mass relays that the stargazer from after the credit are the next generation of galactic civilization who believe Shepard to be there god( as the kid calls him the Shepard and we refer to god as the shepard as well) because he freed them from reaper and the synthesis or whatever you chose to do. the reference to more stories of the shepard can be dlc or prequels to the game. he also the star gazer says that the story happen a long long time go and that some of the information has been lost/change /misinterpreted.

Thats the thing. You don`t get controll over the reapers. Its a lie. What it does is it kills Shep.

[Candidate 88766]

XIXmaximus wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The main argument that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that game explicitly tells you that Shepard's defeat of the Reapers has turned him into a legend. Thats about as blatant as Bioware could be in telling you that you defeated the Reapers.

I don't get why people are so adamant about this idea. Its worse than the current endings - it invalidates every choice by making it so Shepard fails no matter what - he falls under the Reapers' influence. At least with the current endings you actually beat the Reapers, despite them being poorly explained, essentially reliant on magic, and providing poor closure for the characters. Shepard being indoctrinated would mean that the Reapers win and the Cycle continues regardless of what you do.

You're right...in only one way.  Yes, the stargazer says that he's a legend.  But its also blatently proven that this scene is a seperate segment in the ending. And that it is FAR in the future....which means that there is a gap that needs to be filled, which obviously will hold Shep beating the reapers anyway (which is supported by the stargazer agreeing to tell "one more story")  The TRUE fans are adament about this idea because they don't want to just sit around holding their butt hole and crying about crappy endings when there is empirical and physical evidence that proves otherwise.

No, I mean when the game pops up a little dialogue box after the credits telling the player that Shepard has defeated the Reapers and passed into legend, and that you can continue to play through NG+ and DLC. The achievement/trophy for beating the Reapers is also called 'Legend'. Unless this indoctrination thing brekas the fourth wall, it doesn't make sense.

And me not believing in this far-fetched theory, which the game directly and explicitly contradicts when finished, somehow makes me not a 'true' fan? Right...

And surely Shepard being indocrinated is worse than the current endings as it either means that Shepard fails no matter what, or the story cuts out before the real end, both of which are awful.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 13 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[Kitten Tactics]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

So according to ME3's official Twitter account, the endings are open for interpretation.

The problem is, they promised closure.  They can't cop out and tell us the endings are whatever we want.  For over a year they said they will not pull a LOST and leave us with more questions than answers.

[fropas]

XIXmaximus wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The main argument that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that game explicitly tells you that Shepard's defeat of the Reapers has turned him into a legend. Thats about as blatant as Bioware could be in telling you that you defeated the Reapers.

I don't get why people are so adamant about this idea. Its worse than the current endings - it invalidates every choice by making it so Shepard fails no matter what - he falls under the Reapers' influence. At least with the current endings you actually beat the Reapers, despite them being poorly explained, essentially reliant on magic, and providing poor closure for the characters. Shepard being indoctrinated would mean that the Reapers win and the Cycle continues regardless of what you do.

You're right...in only one way.  Yes, the stargazer says that he's a legend.  But its also blatently proven that this scene is a seperate segment in the ending. And that it is FAR in the future....which means that there is a gap that needs to be filled, which obviously will hold Shep beating the reapers anyway (which is supported by the stargazer agreeing to tell "one more story")  The TRUE fans are adament about this idea because they don't want to just sit around holding their butt hole and crying about crappy endings when there is empirical and physical evidence that proves otherwise.

Wait, so I can be indoctrinated and still become a Legend?

OH snap! Husk Shep DLC FTW!

[GOODKyle]

spartain999 wrote...

sorry this doesn't make complete sense its a good vid and has some good points but i have one reason why it doesn't make sense.

if this entire thing is you indoctrinated what is the point of taking over the reapers. it serves no purpose for the reaper to let them do that. also u said that that he never left earth when you chose to destroy the reapers. how do u destroy them if you never went to the Citadel also if you never went to the Citadel how do you achieve the control or synthesis. lastly Indoctrination would be him just dreaming dieing on the ground he would have to have actually had to go to the citadel and done something for the Indoctrination theory to make sense.

sorry its a good idea but there are way to many holes in your theory im still trying to figure out the true ideas of this ending currently i believe it to be that because of all the destruction of this cycles civilization and the destruction of the mass relays that the stargazer from after the credit are the next generation of galactic civilization who believe Shepard to be there god( as the kid calls him the Shepard and we refer to god as the shepard as well) because he freed them from reaper and the synthesis or whatever you chose to do. the reference to more stories of the shepard can be dlc or prequels to the game. he also the star gazer says that the story happen a long long time go and that some of the information has been lost/change /misinterpreted.

ugh x.x I'm getting sick of repeating myself. All of this is a test for indoctrination. So if you choose control you are indoctrinated. You choose destroy you break free from the indoctrination and wake back up on earth where the indoctrination began. You never do anything to the reapers themselves. 

[GOODKyle]

Kitten Tactics wrote...
]The problem is, they promised closure.  They can't cop out and tell us the endings are whatever we want.  For over a year they said they will not pull a LOST and leave us with more questions than answers.

Need to shove this down their throats

[Worufu]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The main argument that Shepard is not indoctrinated is that game explicitly tells you that Shepard's defeat of the Reapers has turned him into a legend. Thats about as blatant as Bioware could be in telling you that you defeated the Reapers.

I don't get why people are so adamant about this idea. Its worse than the current endings - it invalidates every choice by making it so Shepard fails no matter what - he falls under the Reapers' influence. At least with the current endings you actually beat the Reapers, despite them being poorly explained, essentially reliant on magic, and providing poor closure for the characters. Shepard being indoctrinated would mean that the Reapers win and the Cycle continues regardless of what you do.

It does not invalidate EVERY choice. We can see something resembling complete change of Shepard into Husk. The thing I saw as the first thing when I was watching Control/Synthesis endings were the eyes.
They are EXACTLY like The Illusive Man's eyes and it's a very noticeable feature that shows an early, but already invasive stage of indoctrination.
I see it as Control means that it's actually the Reapers that control Shepard. He loses. He becomes just like TIM - a puppet. He becomes a simple husk, no longer able to control (eh) his actions. His personality, everything that makes Shepard, uh, Shepard, dies. All is left is a husk.
In Synthesis Shepard, a being mostly organic, yet partly synthetic joins the energy of the Crucible to join organics and synthetics forever. Only, you know, THE REAPERS ARE THE APEX OF SYNTHESIS. They harvest organics in order to create synthetic life. Their core, though, remains organic. Of sorts. Gel, liquid, you know. That means either you simply will be processed and just as thousands of others you will be used in creating a new Reaper, OR Shepard will become a new Reaper's main mind. Like, some resemblance of personality, it's 'voice'. Of course your indoctrinated body will drag itself to the closest processing device/facility and well, there you go.
The Destruction, presented by The Catalyst in a very negative way, is actually Shepard's mind REJECTING the indoctrination. He will wake up right there in the rubble, among bodies and burning Mako's. He didn't move previously and it looked like he was dead (while in truth he was dreaming), so the voice at the beginning of the 'walk to the beam in slo-mo' sequence says that there's nobody alive, 'they', your team, didn't make it. You wake up, free of Reaper's control, shrugging off the indoctrination like it's a flesh wound, retaining your personality and mind, defeating the Reapers at their own game through your willpower and determination, not swaying and deciding to end this the way you always thought was right - by destroying the Reapers.