524 réponses à ce sujet

[heathxxx]

Dr_Hello wrote...

One of the ME producers once stated that ME will have an equivalent twist to Star Wars' i.e. "Luke, I am your father".

Could the indoc. theory be it?

Not to mention that Emperor Palpetine tried to turn Luke to the "Dark Side" towards the end of Return of the Jedi.

Subtle nod to that situation, facing the protagonist of Mass Effect perhaps, but taken a step further?

Modifié par heathxxx, 23 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[GOODKyle]

heathxxx wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

One of the ME producers once stated that ME will have an equivalent twist to Star Wars' i.e. "Luke, I am your father".

Could the indoc. theory be it?

Not to mention that Emperor Palpetine tried to turn Luke to the "Dark Side" towards the end of Return of the Jedi.

Subtle nod to that situation, facing the protagonist of Mass Effect perhaps, but taken a step further?

That just screamed indoc to me

Modifié par GOODKyle, 23 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[_Arkayne_]

viperabyss wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

All this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. The video does point out some inconsistencies, but nothing out of the normal "human error" range.

I'd agree that it's possibly human error, but so many instances coming up in 5 minutes is unlikely

[Newtype Taichou]

GOODKyle wrote...

Newtype Taichou wrote...

Okay so just some questions, this is an interesting theory for sure.

1. If Shepard was indeed indoctrinated, why not just kill him? - Maybe they didn't have "enough" control?

2. So this theory states that the "destroy" ending is the actual real ending right? The one's that the Reapers don't want (hence why they made it seem like a bad decision)? - So what if you choose this ending? I assume you just continue on doing whatever in the DLC

If it was all an indoctrination; does that mean Shepard doesn't actually gain control of the Reapers (If you go that route)? If so where would DLC go from there? He doesn't control them, so doesn't that mean he lost?

If it was the synthesis option, where do you go from there? I guess you could just continue on in this case; seems like both Reapers and non-Reapers benefit.

Also just like someone else mentioned, what about the out-of-game cut-scenes and the scene on that world with Joker? Or the stargazer? That seems like it's the biggest loose end here, that's a really huge stretch to assume that even though it's being shown directly to the player it is still imaginary to Shepard.

EDIT: If he was under control the whole time, why not just force him to allow the Reapers to survive? Again, probably not full control?

Harbinger takes an interest in a Shepard and if they can indoc Shep (the one who the entire galaxy follows) than the war is over right quick. 

Hopefully this theory is correct and DLC will come out to finish the post-indoctrination game. Whether that is just defaulted to resisting indoc or relishing in it remains to be seen.  

All the other questions are answered in the vid's description. 

So you mean it  would be defaulted to the "Destroy" ending? I can see some real tension there. 

Also, for the out of game cutscenes I still believe that it where the biggest flaw is with this theory. It's way too easy to say that they were all further hallucinations. 

[GOODKyle]

_Arkayne_ wrote...

viperabyss wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

All this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. The video does point out some inconsistencies, but nothing out of the normal "human error" range.

I'd agree that it's possibly human error, but so many instances coming up in 5 minutes is unlikely

Exactly. We already addressed that post by saying that is just one out of the many things going for the indoc theory. 

[GOODKyle]

Newtype Taichou wrote...
]

So you mean it  would be defaulted to the "Destroy" ending? I can see some real tension there. 

Also, for the out of game cutscenes I still believe that it where the biggest flaw is with this theory. It's way too easy to say that they were all further hallucinations. 

Other people say hallucination in regards to indoctrination. The latter word is what to focus on. It's not "as easy" to pass that off as whimsical because it's relevance to ME and all the foreshadowing. 

[Newtype Taichou]

GOODKyle wrote...

Newtype Taichou wrote...
]

So you mean it  would be defaulted to the "Destroy" ending? I can see some real tension there. 

Also, for the out of game cutscenes I still believe that it where the biggest flaw is with this theory. It's way too easy to say that they were all further hallucinations. 

Other people say hallucination in regards to indoctrination. The latter word is what to focus on. It's not "as easy" to pass that off as whimsical because it's relevance to ME and all the foreshadowing. 

I was just using that word because it'd be a symptom of the alleged indoc, plus I was getting tired of using the word indoc all the time lol

That foreshadowing is plausible for everything up to the out-of-game cutscenes, I just too firmly believe that the out of game scenes are real, if not then it's just too easy and uncreative for BW to deceive fans (if that's their intent). 

Modifié par Newtype Taichou, 24 mars 2012 - 02:11 .

[MrPuschel]

"Hey look i have a total proof for that. Here's a youtube video and a link to a text i just read half the way"

[GOODKyle]

MrPuschel wrote...


"Hey look i have a total proof for that. Here's a youtube video and a link to a text i just read half the way"

dun dun dun dun

[Wynne]

GOODKyle wrote...

robertm407 wrote...

You can’t create such an incredible game and story to destroy it in the end with ten minutes of crap, please tell me this isn't true Bioware. And if that was your plan then play along and say you did it on purpose; then cover it up with the indoctrination theory , and do it sooner rather then later everyone will be happier....... 

That's the point that first got me on this theory and what other people were saying about it. This is probably one of the best games this generation and Bioware's million dollar baby. So why would it end in such a crappy way?

This is the one thing that keeps me believing--errors tend to be spread out. How could they all collect in one place? Plotholes, bad writing, bad decisions... that's what it looks like. I could believe, you know, they're human and they make mistakes, everyone does--but if this is in that category, then why does it all collect in one place? 

GOODKyle, after some careful thought, I don't know if I believe this theory is the only possibility (though to me it makes 100% more sense than the ending being something Bioware thought was cool by itself--if they did, then they clearly cracked under the enormous pressure) but I do agree with you and all those who are saying this game was so awesome that there's no way the same people would let this be what it seems to be. 

It did occur to me that this mental journey might be a test by the Crucible itself . Meaning, the technology tests Shepard's resolve before it activates, and it would refuse to be activated by anyone who isn't committed to the course, regardless of the cost (assuming the original makers of the weapon were Space Romans like the Protheans). But it's not as cool, interesting, or dramatic as the idea that the Illusive Man or the Reapers were trying to indocrinate Shepard. (I would say, preferably the former, as the echo of Saren is then a perfect ploy by TIM rather than a repetition of past drama by the writers.) 

I'm still only about 75% there, though. Because, the endings... the mass relays exploding, the random Normandy/Joker scenes... why would that be part of an attempt to control Shepard's mind? That part still perplexes me. 

Modifié par Wynne, 28 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[GOODKyle]

Wynne wrote...


I'm still only about 75% there, though. Because, the endings... the mass relays exploding, the random Normandy/Joker scenes... why would that be part of an attempt to control Shepard's mind? That part still perplexes me. 

I personally believe (because it's just a s*!$ storm right now) that those were just thrown in there to meet a deadline or they were Shepard's thoughts on what would happen if what he chose really did happen. Because if the relays really did explode then Shep wouldn't be shown breathing in the Sol system. 

[Unlimited69x]

Bumping this.

[malamor]

I have always thought the game was shipped missing the ending..it is a planned DLC that has been completed before the game release. All the talk over the ending..the hype building ect ect has played perfectly into Bioware's plan. The way games are being marketed now is to make more money through DLC. The ending of the game you played was intended to get this reaction (not as extreme as they expected) but still...speculation of the ending... the theories of what it means...the meanings..anyone who thinks Bioware is making a ending now to make the fans happy is just a fool. Yes you all have been indoctrinated..welcome to the future of how AAA games will be released.

[GOODKyle]

All started with EA and Ubisoft

[LivingHitokiri]

You actually contradict with the theory BIG time when you said.
" The control ending showing the kid smirking proves that reapers succeeded into controlling Shepard thus STOPPING HIM FROM DESTROYING THEM"
So if all was a hallucination means that Shepard was on EARTH lying down after Sovereigns beam, means HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM, So how exactly he is a threat at this point when he already LOST ?
Sometimes over-analyzing a bad story leads to hallucination not reapers.


There are many many other points that i could throw in as proof that this is not indoctrination attempt at ending, EVEN if magically it was it doesn't change that the game got no closure, indoctrination theory makes the closure even more non existent

[GOODKyle]

LivingHitokiri wrote...

You actually contradict with the theory BIG time when you said.
" The control ending showing the kid smirking proves that reapers succeeded into controlling Shepard thus STOPPING HIM FROM DESTROYING THEM"
So if all was a hallucination means that Shepard was on EARTH lying down after Sovereigns beam, means HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM, So how exactly he is a threat at this point when he already LOST ?
Sometimes over-analyzing a bad story leads to hallucination not reapers.


There are many many other points that i could throw in as proof that this is not indoctrination attempt at ending, EVEN if magically it was it doesn't change that the game got no closure, indoctrination theory makes the closure even more non existent

So many things wrong with this post. Your critical thinking skills just gave me an aneurysm.

[KenanJabr]

Here are some quotes I find very interesting when viewed in context of the final (Indoctrination) scene.

Prothean VI: *In regards to the Crucible not being deployed in time* "We were sabotaged from within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them. It fractured our order of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinated." (Explains why the Reapers would want to control Shepard's mind)

Eve: "Take it as a reminder, Commander. In the darkest hour, there is always a way out."

and

Eve: "It only takes one candle to light a fire. And then the darkness is no more." (These two quotes foreshadows Shepard's righteous decision to destroy the Reapers even in an indoctrinated state)

Some interesting Harbinger quotes:
"You do not yet comprehend your place in things."
"Preserve Shepard's body if possible."
"Your form is fragile."
"We are your genetic destiny."

[SoloNerfherder]

Wow, I finally finished reading this thread in its entirety! It took ages, but I was desperate for answers as to WTH was up with the ending when I finished the game a few days ago.
Whether this is just an ending that makes no sense or actually a test of Shep's will vs. Harbinger's attempted indoctrination (and having seen all the evidence presented in this thread, as well as several other YouTube videos and online articles, this theory makes the most sense), Bioware f'ed up big time.
It's not that tricking your audience with a twist is a bad thing, it's that it wasn't made clear that that is what is happening is my problem. I'm sure someone will pull out examples to contradict me, but if a magician performs an illusion, do they walk off stage once the trick is done without telling something just happened?
How about in movies? The 6th Sense, The Prestige, Shutter Island... I'm pretty sure they all revealed the trick/twist at the end, so everyone watching could say, "Oh, OK, nice one, you got me." IIRC, they would even show a montage of scenes from earlier in the movies, that should have clued you in on what was going on. Forgive me for being one of the "simple ones" who would like to be in on the trick by having it revealed to me, but there it is.
I found the ending as it is to be very unsatisfactory. And even if DLC is coming to continue the story, what happens to the people who don't have internet access? If there is more to come, it should have been in the game I bought, or at the very least there should have been a Critical Mission Failure if you choose Control or Synthesis and a "To Be Continued..." after Shep takes a breath in the Destroy ending to clearly indicate that there is more to it than what is shown.
I don't see how, even if BW have the best ending ever (I'm not talking a fairies and unicorns ending, just something that is narratively satisfying to everybody) in a DLC pack hidden up their collective sleeves, that they thought it was fair to not finish the story with what's on the discs themselves, or at the most, as day one DLC. Much as I like the constantly hand-washing germophobe Javik, I'd take a decent ending over the From Ashes pack any day of the week! BW appear to have misread how fans would react to the current ending in a big way.
I really hope whatever they have planned next for ME solves the current problems with the ending big time. I just don't know how they're going to do it.

[Jexx21]

if this is true, then why is it that if you have a low amount of war supplies you can only choose the destroy ending? that doesn't make sense with this theory.

It does make sense if the endings are real however. Possibly the Crucible wasn't built well enough or parts of it were destroyed so that the choices that opened up to the Catalyst wasn't actual choices, and just another choice besides his initial solution.

[Erethrian]

GOODKyle wrote...

heathxxx wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

One of the ME producers once stated that ME will have an equivalent twist to Star Wars' i.e. "Luke, I am your father".

Could the indoc. theory be it?

Not to mention that Emperor Palpetine tried to turn Luke to the "Dark Side" towards the end of Return of the Jedi.

Subtle nod to that situation, facing the protagonist of Mass Effect perhaps, but taken a step further?

That just screamed indoc to me

I agree ^^

[SoloNerfherder]

Jexx21 wrote...

if this is true, then why is it that if you have a low amount of war supplies you can only choose the destroy ending?

No idea:?
I'd love to see a video where someone with low war assets plays the end of the game, just to see how that changes what Catalyst the Friendly Ghost presents to you at the end.

I had a full bar of war assets - I don't remember the point value, but I'm fairly sure it was way over 5,000 (not 9,000!) so I was given all 3 choices.

[brickheart]

SoloNerfherder wrote...

Jexx21 wrote...

if this is true, then why is it that if you have a low amount of war supplies you can only choose the destroy ending?

No idea:?
I'd love to see a video where someone with low war assets plays the end of the game, just to see how that changes what Catalyst the Friendly Ghost presents to you at the end.

I had a full bar of war assets - I don't remember the point value, but I'm fairly sure it was way over 5,000 (not 9,000!) so I was given all 3 choices.

You can only choose destroy. No other options are present. Also, the red wave thing kills humans and Reapers for some reason. The only other difference is that Shepard isn't shown breathing at the end. How does EMS change the magic wave (ie doesn't kill humans just Reapers) is just a silly large plot hole.

[SoloNerfherder]

I see. Well, I'd still like to see it in video form.

I still think the indoctrination theory fits the best. As you point out, it's not perfect, but then every writer is only human I'm sure every story in existence can be picked apart for plot holes if you try hard enough. And I haven't seen a better theory to explain the seeming mess of an ending we currently have.

Either way, the execution on ME3's ending is totally borked. If they haven't finished even making the ending yet, they shouldn't have released the game period. I could have continued playing Xenoblade Chronicles and the rest of my Pile O' Shame of unplayed games while I waited for a properly finished ME3

BTW, I forgot to say to everyone who contributed to this thread thanks for the interesting read (and great videos!). The indoc theory, if true, is mindblowing. Just badly executed 
Bioware also deserve kudos for everything in this series but the ending 

Modifié par SoloNerfherder, 05 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[SoloNerfherder]

Aaaaand as if by magic, we get this:

http://www.g4tv.com/...nding-for-free/

Sucks that we have to wait, but let's hope it answers all our questions!

Modifié par SoloNerfherder, 06 avril 2012 - 04:44 .

[GOODKyle]

SoloNerfherder wrote...

Wow, I finally finished reading this thread in its entirety! It took ages, but I was desperate for answers as to WTH was up with the ending when I finished the game a few days ago.
Whether this is just an ending that makes no sense or actually a test of Shep's will vs. Harbinger's attempted indoctrination (and having seen all the evidence presented in this thread, as well as several other YouTube videos and online articles, this theory makes the most sense), Bioware f'ed up big time.
It's not that tricking your audience with a twist is a bad thing, it's that it wasn't made clear that that is what is happening is my problem. I'm sure someone will pull out examples to contradict me, but if a magician performs an illusion, do they walk off stage once the trick is done without telling something just happened?
How about in movies? The 6th Sense, The Prestige, Shutter Island... I'm pretty sure they all revealed the trick/twist at the end, so everyone watching could say, "Oh, OK, nice one, you got me." IIRC, they would even show a montage of scenes from earlier in the movies, that should have clued you in on what was going on. Forgive me for being one of the "simple ones" who would like to be in on the trick by having it revealed to me, but there it is.
I found the ending as it is to be very unsatisfactory. And even if DLC is coming to continue the story, what happens to the people who don't have internet access? If there is more to come, it should have been in the game I bought, or at the very least there should have been a Critical Mission Failure if you choose Control or Synthesis and a "To Be Continued..." after Shep takes a breath in the Destroy ending to clearly indicate that there is more to it than what is shown.
I don't see how, even if BW have the best ending ever (I'm not talking a fairies and unicorns ending, just something that is narratively satisfying to everybody) in a DLC pack hidden up their collective sleeves, that they thought it was fair to not finish the story with what's on the discs themselves, or at the most, as day one DLC. Much as I like the constantly hand-washing germophobe Javik, I'd take a decent ending over the From Ashes pack any day of the week! BW appear to have misread how fans would react to the current ending in a big way.
I really hope whatever they have planned next for ME solves the current problems with the ending big time. I just don't know how they're going to do it.

geez the amount of win you pulled off reading this entire thread is astronomical! I agree with you on the endings though.