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Proof Mass Effect 3 Endings Were Indoctrinations


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#76
GOODKyle

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SouperTrooper wrote...

the indoctrination thing sounds great an all except for the fact that you don't end a sixty dollar game like that and force people to download dlc (and probably pay for it) to get the true ending. I can understand if they want to extend the series due to the fact it's a monry mint. Fine but atleast make it clear to me that more is to come. Right now there might be people who uninstall their games, delete save files or go sell them back (console versions) out of spite. How pissed would they be once they find out they were tricked?


I know I hate all of this despite myself realizing this theory x.x'

#77
saga56

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has to be right - how the hell does shepard get hit in the face with a lazer that cuts open a battleship with ease.......and live.....

#78
eternalYouth304

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GOODKyle wrote...

ZodiEmish wrote...

Goodkyle.. I liked the vid.. but I would like to know your opinion on the green ending of the game...


lol I've been asked this tons of times. I proposed that maybe the reapers are willing to give a little for organics to be apart of synthetics. Or maybe when everyeone is partly synthetic they can take control of everyone?


it probably has something to do with the reapers being able to control synthetics more easily, and if organics are half synthetic, they could more easily be controlled. 

in any case, this is a solid theory, and i am starting to believe it more and more myself.  i found this thread after making my own explaining what one of the posters in here had already figured out, about the reaper artifacts and them being on the Normandy because Shepard brought them back to the shuttle, and about the walls of the Citadel moving and how Sovereign's interior "serves indoctrination.  the strange angles of the rooms are confusing and make you uncertain of yourself." 

nice video, btw.

#79
MatronAdena

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so glad you put the video together, it does offer hope, more over easier to illustrate in ways text alone cant do.

#80
Candidate 88766

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GOODKyle wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

TAll this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.


Well of course it's not just that and it is more critical thinking than visual. But it is weird that he stays a moment when you choose to control the reapers and gives that smirk. Not saying it 100% proves but it is suspicious. 

The smirk is simply because, by choosing control and capitulating to the Reapers, Shepard is admitting that the Reapers, and the Guardian, are right - that the only way to prevent a singularity is to periodically destroy organic life.

The Guardian is simply smug that Shepard believes it is right, not that it has indoctrinated Shepard.



Good video btw. I still think people who says Shepard is indoctrinated are simply reading too much into things. The achievements and the game itself tell you that you become a legend upon achieving victory - if Shepard was indoctrinated, then no matter what you do you don't defeat the Reapers. Shepard also exhibits none of the hallmarks or indoctrination during any of the games - complaining of humming/buzzing, hearing whispers etc. But an interesting video nonetheless.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 12 mars 2012 - 07:58 .


#81
Xenite

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Another point of contention that I thought of was these "endings" basically destroy pretty much all credibility for future games. The mass relays are kaput, gone, kablooey....

They made it fairly clear that the current races had little knowledge of the mass relays. Let alone have the ability to ever build new ones. Even with FTL drives it would take hundreds of years to travel between systems let alone the entire milky way.

So unless future ME games are all prequels they have basically sealed the fate of the MEverse unless they come up with some lame hackneyed excuse to explain how new ones magically appear.

#82
eternalYouth304

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Candidate 88766 wrote...

GOODKyle wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

TAll this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.


Well of course it's not just that and it is more critical thinking than visual. But it is weird that he stays a moment when you choose to control the reapers and gives that smirk. Not saying it 100% proves but it is suspicious. 

The smirk is simply because, by choosing control and capitulating to the Reapers, Shepard is admitting that the Reapers, and the Guardian, are right - that the only way to prevent a singularity is to periodically destroy organic life.

The Guardian is simply smug that Shepard believes it is right, not that it has indoctrinated Shepard.


what i don't get is the logic the guardian was using to try and persuade Shepard to pick something other than destroy.  he said that if the cycle isn't repeated that all synthetic life would destroy all organic life.  and that's different from what the repears are doing in the end how, exactly? 

this points to the guardian lying to Shepard, or at least telling him half-truths.  regardless of why he smirked, it doesn't seem his intentions were fully realized by Shepard, in part by the guardians deception.

Modifié par eternalYouth304, 12 mars 2012 - 08:05 .


#83
TremulantOne

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Here's the inherent flaw in all of this reasoning. If they were indeed trying to push an indoctrination or hallucination ending then the whole point is to trick you. For this to work out well for them though they have to give you this ending and make you think it's real but just as you're going "wtf!!" they show you Shep breathing in rubble and THEN YOU GET TO THE REAL ENDING.

It doesn't MATTER if they give us DLC that gives us a true ending. If they do that then they literally are admitting withholding actual game content to turn into DLC which they have adamantly denied in the case of people finding Javik embedded into the code of the non DLC pc game.

Honestly this IS all about DLC. That's exactly what the Stargazer and his grandson with their incredibly bad voiceovers are for. "Okay, one more story!" This lets them reset parts of the game with DLC and potentially twist the ending. This is exactly the lazy arse writing/plot twist they came up with for Dragon Age 2. Have the "story" told from the perspective of someone else so "maaaaaybeeee" it's how it really happened, maybe it's not!!!

BUY THIS DLC AND RELIVE THE ADVENTURES OF THE FANTASTIC COMMANDER SHEPHERD AS TOLD BY AN OLD DUDE TO HIS GRANDSON!!

New ending DLC installed: "I wasn't entirely truthful my grandson, about what happened that day to the Shepherd...... ( new DLC content fades in )"

It's a lazy ass story twist that lets them be incredibly vague about what really happened. It also let's them tell more stories in the universe of Mass Effect. Precisely because it's an old dude retelling them from his point of view, they can tell stories in ANY part of Mass Effect history. Past, present, and future. Keep your saves though! The choices you made that didn't matter in the end will transfer over to our new game/dlc and potentially NOT MATTER AT ALL here!

Honestly Bioware is screwed, they either have to admit they wrote terrible endings to the game and take that hit, admit they left the actual endings out and give them to us for free, or admit they left them out because they wanted to sell them to us.

This is DA2 all over, minus the fact that the entirety of DA2 was crap ( in my opinion ) and ME3 despite its flaws was solid until they took the cop out at the end.

Indoctrination theories don't matter ... honestly I wouldn't be too surprised if they were scouring the forums and reading all the possible theories people have about what went on.... expect to see an ending or resolution implemented that someone has already guessed or written.

I lament for the BioWare of old. Tis a shame old friend, I feel like I hardly knew ye.

#84
Candidate 88766

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eternalYouth304 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

GOODKyle wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

TAll this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.


Well of course it's not just that and it is more critical thinking than visual. But it is weird that he stays a moment when you choose to control the reapers and gives that smirk. Not saying it 100% proves but it is suspicious. 

The smirk is simply because, by choosing control and capitulating to the Reapers, Shepard is admitting that the Reapers, and the Guardian, are right - that the only way to prevent a singularity is to periodically destroy organic life.

The Guardian is simply smug that Shepard believes it is right, not that it has indoctrinated Shepard.


what i don't get is the logic the guardian was using to try and persuade Shepard to pick something other than destroy.  he said that if the cycle isn't repeated that all synthetic life would destroy all organic life.  and that's different from what the repears are doing in the end how, exactly? 

this points to the guardian lying to Shepard, or at least telling him half-truths.  regardless of why he smirked, it doesn't seem his intentions were fully realized by Shepard, in party by the guardians deception.

The Reapers don't wipe out all organic life - only those of a certain technological level. Their fear is that organic will make a powerful AI, that war will somehow break out between them, and the AI will eventually beat organics and wipe out all organic life in the galaxy to completely eliminate the threat. The Reapers periodically wipe out some organic life to prevent all organic life being lost. 

Destroy is the Guardian admitting that they might be wrong about a singularity's inevitability - all synthetic life is wiped out to give organics a chance to exist free from synthetics.

Control is Shepard admitting that not only are the Reapers right about a singularity being inevitable, but that the Cycle is the best way to prevent it. Seeing as this is what the Guardian was set up for, it seems logical that it would be smug when Shepard understands and agrees with its reasons.

Synthesis is the only way for peace to truly occur. It seems to rely on magic though.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 12 mars 2012 - 08:10 .


#85
eternalYouth304

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Candidate 88766 wrote...

eternalYouth304 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

GOODKyle wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

TAll this "indoctrination" conspiracy theories are nothing but desperate wishful thinking. I mean come on how the fact that "kid disappeared the second u shoot that thing" proves this is a dream. Come on.


Well of course it's not just that and it is more critical thinking than visual. But it is weird that he stays a moment when you choose to control the reapers and gives that smirk. Not saying it 100% proves but it is suspicious. 

The smirk is simply because, by choosing control and capitulating to the Reapers, Shepard is admitting that the Reapers, and the Guardian, are right - that the only way to prevent a singularity is to periodically destroy organic life.

The Guardian is simply smug that Shepard believes it is right, not that it has indoctrinated Shepard.


what i don't get is the logic the guardian was using to try and persuade Shepard to pick something other than destroy.  he said that if the cycle isn't repeated that all synthetic life would destroy all organic life.  and that's different from what the repears are doing in the end how, exactly? 

this points to the guardian lying to Shepard, or at least telling him half-truths.  regardless of why he smirked, it doesn't seem his intentions were fully realized by Shepard, in party by the guardians deception.

The Reapers don't wipe out all organic life - only those of a certain technological level. Their fear is that organic will make a powerful AI, that war will somehow break out between them, and the AI will eventually beat organics and wipe out all organic life in the galaxy to completely eliminate the threat. The Reapers periodically wipe out some organic life to prevent all organic life being lost. 

Destroy is the Guardian admitting that they might be wrong about a singularity's inevitability - all synthetic life is wiped out to give organics a chance to exist free from synthetics.

Control is Shepard admitting that not only are the Reapers right about a singularity being inevitable, but that the Cycle is the best way to prevent it. Seeing as this is what the Guardian was set up for, it seems logical that it would be smug when Shepard understands and agrees with its reasons. 

Synthesis is the only way for peace to truly occur. It seems to rely on magic though.


so according to the guardian it's either be destroyed by synthetics eventually or be harvested by the reapers now.  (this is all assuming the destroy option is chosen, in regards to the thread)  again, i'm not sure there's much of a difference there.  even if the reaper's intentions were noble, which they're not, it ultimately ends with organic life's demise. 

Shepard said so himself, if there's no hope, they might as well be synthetics. 

#86
JamesYHT

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well, it might be true, but more likely i think it's just self-consolation and u know what, it makes u feel better. Still a shame ending.

#87
martiancake

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The third choice--green--is Saren's choice. Cooperation. And remember how well that turned out for him.

#88
GOODKyle

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JamesYHT wrote...

well, it might be true, but more likely i think it's just self-consolation and u know what, it makes u feel better. Still a shame ending.


I would just love an answer either way. 

#89
hunterday

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From Ray Muzyka in an interview with Eurogamer published 15 Nov 2011

"We listen to our fans all of the time," Muzyka continued. "We listen to them on the forums, their feedback from stories. We're reading it all. If we can get ideas out of it that will make the game better, sure. We're not adverse to taking feedback. That's part of our core values, is humility. Any time we get a good idea from fans... they're our audience. They keep us in business."

So i guess we can take from this that they will 'FIX' the stupidly bad end/endings to the game or were they just words told to the fans? Even if this was all a ruse and they were all Indoctrination endings theirs been so much bad fan feed back its hard to justify anything else happening?

Modifié par hunterday, 12 mars 2012 - 09:29 .


#90
crapmonster13

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I went into the OP's video thinking it was a load of crap but surprisingly, it made alot of sense. Especially the parallels drawn between how control is presented as paragon (blue) but with TIM, and with destroy being presented as renegade (red) but with Anderson. Its something I completely looked over and is one of the few things that can't be written off as simply an unintended inconsistency.

That was most definitely deliberate and falls in line with the theory presented. Now accepting that as deliberate the dozens of things people have already pointed out that simply make no realistic sense (even in the realm of cinema/games), the indoctrination/dream theory is definitely looking more and more plausible, and not simply grasping at straws.

#91
JamesYHT

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GOODKyle wrote...

JamesYHT wrote...

well, it might be true, but more likely i think it's just self-consolation and u know what, it makes u feel better. Still a shame ending.


I would just love an answer either way. 


Fair enough

#92
CROAT_56

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also the standard armor is magically being worn by shep even if you are wearing something completely different. I'm under the assumption we havent seen the end yet.

#93
Tazzmission

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very interesting video!

i like the theory on the shepard lives part

#94
TRISTAN WERBE

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this makes perfect sense get shepard to believe in saving the reapers in a dream but if he destroys them then he can wake up but sythncy dosnt really matter I suppose

#95
Doctor Quinn

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Good read, here's my own personal take on the ending:

I think our last fight was fighting the indoctrination process. If Shepherd raises a credible threat thus proving his mettle against the Reaper's machinations the other pro Reaper options are opened in an attempt to bring Shepherd into their fold. He proves usefulness as an intelligence for them to leverage rather than as mere puddle of DNA. Throughout the journey Shepherd is haunted by the kid from earth whom only he has acknowledged as real. He wakes from these dreams seemingly with headache pain. The dreams play on his greatest fears of failure slowly narrowing his perspective. This narrows his resolve, but it also makes him more predictable and therefore more easily manipulated. The final scene plays out with him dazed listening to the king of Reapers with little question or protest. In fact his questions and protest dwindle all the way to the third option of synthesis where a seemingly bewildered Shepherd mutters a weak I don't know. The only option where shepherd can possibly live is the destroy option. The Reaper god presents it as the most pyhrhic. It will destroy the geth and your friend EDI, which will be very disappointing to Joker, and it will not end the cycle. And if your EMS score is too low it is for not. Earth will be destroyed. The other two are much more favored in the Reaper's presentation and smack of ruthless temptation that speaks to shepherd's renegade or paragon nature. To be honest although there is the possibility of three choices there is in this reading only two. Two are Reaper arguments and one is to stand against them. If Shepherd chooses Synthesis or Control he is following the Illusive Man and Saren into the same logical traps that the Reapers caught them in. The desire to be powerful, the desire to cooperate and prove your right to exist before the unsympathetic intelligence of an amoral machine god. An exercise in futility.

As for the rest of the magic show in this case is how the indoctrination process resolves itself in Shepherd's mind. In the case of indoctrination Shepherd is incorporated into the machinery of the Reapers and is kept contented that his act has brought peace to his friends while his will and body are co-opted. In the choice to fight Shepherd find's a safe place in his mind, his hopes, to shield himself from the tortures of the Reapers. Much in the way that the main character from Brazil goes off into that flight of fancy when he is being tortured.

If Shepherd has enough EMS he wakes up to continue the fight to the end. If he's indoctrinated the whole galaxy tells his tale of how he led them to ascension in the belly of a reaper living out a reality beyond our comprehension. They are each a nation unto themselves afterall. Either way he is a legend.

Reaper Motivations

Much has been made about the Catalyst's revelations. And frankly I find his reasons to be not credible nor do I are we intended to think so. The Reapers have no reason to explain themselves to us, nor any investment to be honest with Shepherd. Instead the Catalyst offers up something the Reapers think Shepherd wants to hear. Shepherd at this point is tired of war. He has lost his friends, his homeworld, and sacrificed bits of his own humanity to get here. The Reapers offer him an easy out. They make the case that they want what he wants: peace and galactic safety and order. And if he plays there game they will trouble the galaxy no more. Since he is a soldier he understands conflict best of all. So the argument is centered around the eventuality of conflict. In this case between organics and inorganics to types of consciousness that are as alien from one another as is possible. Through that the Reapers pose themselves as a solution to conflict as he has been a solution in his own galaxy. This is all to bolster their credibility with Shepherd. To speak to his sympathies and better nature as a character who understands war, sacrifice, and survival. It's a load of horse**** but Shepherd is too weighed down by his survivor's guilt and fears to see anything other than the possibility of hope being dangled before him.

The Reaper's actions show the opposite of sympathy for organics, though. As Mordin points out Reaper tech design for their organic components and collectors show utter disdain for organic needs. They are cultureless, unimaginitive, and sadistic. Sovereign refers to organic life as a virus. A virus to them that is necessary to cultivate, but more ever, neccessary to control. They had painstakingly stocked the universe with a path of technology that would manage growth and lead spacefaring peoples to the their Citadel. From there the voice of indoctrination can subtly guide the decision makers of the galaxy toward acts they see desirable for their next harvest. They indulge no sympathy, tolerate no dissent, and give no quarter.

Yet within the design of Reapers there is a paradox. What is a Reaper but a the indoctrinated corpse of a nation of people? How can such a thing be independent? Answer, they aren't. Reapers are the essence of amoral determinsm. They are the mad gods of Lovecraft. Inexplicable. The only thing they stand for is the neccessity of the cycle. The neccessity to continue existence. The neccessity to manifest it's order for the order's sake. Justification is unimportant to them. They are the pinnacle of sycophancy. They stand for nothing but the order they serve as an ideal unto itself. An order imposed so long ago that it's purpose and spirit is lost. They are the police state that cannibalizes it's own citizens for the sake of self preservation.

Life however is always a threat. Because life is a struggle to manifest itself with freedom and independence. Throughout the game Shepherd champions this struggle whether it's helping the geth be free to self determinate or it's handing the krogan back their right to flourish as a race. Shepherd's main contention about the reapers is the fact that they wish to impose their judgement on all races. That their will is to be forced on ours. Shepherd desires a universe with a valid choice. Reapers desire a universe that only consists of their choice.

#96
GOODKyle

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CROAT_56 wrote...

also the standard armor is magically being worn by shep even if you are wearing something completely different. I'm under the assumption we havent seen the end yet.


I think that this was the fact that Bioware didn't want to make multiple destroyed armor suits to tailor to each outfit. But then again who knows for sure x.x

#97
GOODKyle

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Doctor Quinn wrote...

Good read, here's my own personal take on the ending:

I think our last fight was fighting the indoctrination process. If Shepherd raises a credible threat thus proving his mettle against the Reaper's machinations the other pro Reaper options are opened in an attempt to bring Shepherd into their fold. He proves usefulness as an intelligence for them to leverage rather than as mere puddle of DNA. Throughout the journey Shepherd is haunted by the kid from earth whom only he has acknowledged as real. He wakes from these dreams seemingly with headache pain. The dreams play on his greatest fears of failure slowly narrowing his perspective. This narrows his resolve, but it also makes him more predictable and therefore more easily manipulated. The final scene plays out with him dazed listening to the king of Reapers with little question or protest. In fact his questions and protest dwindle all the way to the third option of synthesis where a seemingly bewildered Shepherd mutters a weak I don't know. The only option where shepherd can possibly live is the destroy option. The Reaper god presents it as the most pyhrhic. It will destroy the geth and your friend EDI, which will be very disappointing to Joker, and it will not end the cycle. And if your EMS score is too low it is for not. Earth will be destroyed. The other two are much more favored in the Reaper's presentation and smack of ruthless temptation that speaks to shepherd's renegade or paragon nature. To be honest although there is the possibility of three choices there is in this reading only two. Two are Reaper arguments and one is to stand against them. If Shepherd chooses Synthesis or Control he is following the Illusive Man and Saren into the same logical traps that the Reapers caught them in. The desire to be powerful, the desire to cooperate and prove your right to exist before the unsympathetic intelligence of an amoral machine god. An exercise in futility.

As for the rest of the magic show in this case is how the indoctrination process resolves itself in Shepherd's mind. In the case of indoctrination Shepherd is incorporated into the machinery of the Reapers and is kept contented that his act has brought peace to his friends while his will and body are co-opted. In the choice to fight Shepherd find's a safe place in his mind, his hopes, to shield himself from the tortures of the Reapers. Much in the way that the main character from Brazil goes off into that flight of fancy when he is being tortured.

If Shepherd has enough EMS he wakes up to continue the fight to the end. If he's indoctrinated the whole galaxy tells his tale of how he led them to ascension in the belly of a reaper living out a reality beyond our comprehension. They are each a nation unto themselves afterall. Either way he is a legend.

Reaper Motivations

Much has been made about the Catalyst's revelations. And frankly I find his reasons to be not credible nor do I are we intended to think so. The Reapers have no reason to explain themselves to us, nor any investment to be honest with Shepherd. Instead the Catalyst offers up something the Reapers think Shepherd wants to hear. Shepherd at this point is tired of war. He has lost his friends, his homeworld, and sacrificed bits of his own humanity to get here. The Reapers offer him an easy out. They make the case that they want what he wants: peace and galactic safety and order. And if he plays there game they will trouble the galaxy no more. Since he is a soldier he understands conflict best of all. So the argument is centered around the eventuality of conflict. In this case between organics and inorganics to types of consciousness that are as alien from one another as is possible. Through that the Reapers pose themselves as a solution to conflict as he has been a solution in his own galaxy. This is all to bolster their credibility with Shepherd. To speak to his sympathies and better nature as a character who understands war, sacrifice, and survival. It's a load of horse**** but Shepherd is too weighed down by his survivor's guilt and fears to see anything other than the possibility of hope being dangled before him.

The Reaper's actions show the opposite of sympathy for organics, though. As Mordin points out Reaper tech design for their organic components and collectors show utter disdain for organic needs. They are cultureless, unimaginitive, and sadistic. Sovereign refers to organic life as a virus. A virus to them that is necessary to cultivate, but more ever, neccessary to control. They had painstakingly stocked the universe with a path of technology that would manage growth and lead spacefaring peoples to the their Citadel. From there the voice of indoctrination can subtly guide the decision makers of the galaxy toward acts they see desirable for their next harvest. They indulge no sympathy, tolerate no dissent, and give no quarter.

Yet within the design of Reapers there is a paradox. What is a Reaper but a the indoctrinated corpse of a nation of people? How can such a thing be independent? Answer, they aren't. Reapers are the essence of amoral determinsm. They are the mad gods of Lovecraft. Inexplicable. The only thing they stand for is the neccessity of the cycle. The neccessity to continue existence. The neccessity to manifest it's order for the order's sake. Justification is unimportant to them. They are the pinnacle of sycophancy. They stand for nothing but the order they serve as an ideal unto itself. An order imposed so long ago that it's purpose and spirit is lost. They are the police state that cannibalizes it's own citizens for the sake of self preservation.

Life however is always a threat. Because life is a struggle to manifest itself with freedom and independence. Throughout the game Shepherd champions this struggle whether it's helping the geth be free to self determinate or it's handing the krogan back their right to flourish as a race. Shepherd's main contention about the reapers is the fact that they wish to impose their judgement on all races. That their will is to be forced on ours. Shepherd desires a universe with a valid choice. Reapers desire a universe that only consists of their choice.


Very interesting read. I agree that the "king of all reapers" has no intention of telling Shepard the truth about anything let alone explain themselves. 

#98
GOODKyle

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JamesYHT wrote...

GOODKyle wrote...

JamesYHT wrote...

well, it might be true, but more likely i think it's just self-consolation and u know what, it makes u feel better. Still a shame ending.


I would just love an answer either way. 


Fair enough


So let's say that I'm wrong and it was all just unconscious wistful thinking. What do you make of the endings?

#99
GOODKyle

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This just in! Bioware was asked about Shepard being indoctrinated

Westley Hayes ‏ @WestleyHayes
@masseffect Do you think Shepard can become indoctrinated by the Reapers?

57m Mass Effect ‏ @masseffect
@westleyhayes Anything is possible

#100
Adeph

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SouperTrooper wrote...

the indoctrination thing sounds great an all except for the fact that you don't end a sixty dollar game like that and force people to download dlc (and probably pay for it) to get the true ending. I can understand if they want to extend the series due to the fact it's a monry mint. Fine but atleast make it clear to me that more is to come. Right now there might be people who uninstall their games, delete save files or go sell them back (console versions) out of spite. How pissed would they be once they find out they were tricked?


This

The hammering Bioware is taking over this ending issue, if this theory was true then something would have been said to appease the fans. I personally know people who have already traded in their console versions of the game so I can imagine what their reaction will be if Bioware tells them they need to rebuy the game to see the ending.

Plus I'll be mighily f-ed off if they charge me extra to see the ending of a PC game I paid £35 for.

I can kinda see the theory but if it's true this will be the biggest PR own goal in gaming history