50 réponses à ce sujet

[Kelanil]

Am I the only one wondering about this? Loghain is a paranoid Orlasis hater yet his right hand man is from a family that betrayed the King and sided with Orlasis. I understand Loghain needs a toady to do all the "dirty" work but from what I've seen of Loghain through my numerous playthroughs I just can't see him having a man like Howe in such a trusted and powerful position. 

[Pennoyer]

During the game I kept thinking Loghain was possessed by a demon. His actions just seemed irrational and crazy. At least Howe seemed to be motivated by the almighty Sovereign.

[Original182]

I think the "alliance" between Loghain and Howe is just a matter of convenience. Loghain doesn't have many allies left, so he has to make do with whomever he can get. It's more a case of beggars can't be choosers. Howe seems like someone who would do anything just to advance himself.

[Pennoyer]

I was still surprised Loghain wasn't possessed or something. His actions really made little sense. He didn't even seem like a power-hungry guy. I guess he was just that paranoid about Orlais.

[Original182]

Yeah that's it, he was paranoid of Orlais.

Also combined with the fact that Maric was all "Grey Warden this, Grey Warden that", choosing Grey Wardens over Loghain's opinion also drove him over the edge.

Ironically in the end, the main character didn't even need to bring in Orlais.

[Murdario]

he even told me at ostagar he was aware that cailan had promised to help me kill howe for what he had done and then what does he do? make howe the arl of denerim... if i was supposed to think loghain was anything more than a purely evil villain at any point in the story, like i suspect, it didnt work at all.

[Taerda]

It would have been really good to have a love scene between Loghain and Howe ... at least my first PC would have thought the two were in bed together.

[The Angry One]

Howe's grandfather sided with Orlais, Howe himself never did and fought with Bryce under Maric's banner. So that isn't really an issue.



But, why would a such a grand and glorious hero not only side with a crooked snake like Howe but help him murder a well respected noble family, elevate him in power and let him reign terror on whatever victims he chose? You know, along with the treason, regicide, poisoning, conspiring with blood mage demonologists and slavery?



Gee... could it be that the books are in fact not the 100% accurate first hand accounts Gaider claims they are? Oh no, can't possibly be *that* now..

[The Angry One]

Murdario wrote...

he even told me at ostagar he was aware that cailan had promised to help me kill howe for what he had done and then what does he do? make howe the arl of denerim... if i was supposed to think loghain was anything more than a purely evil villain at any point in the story, like i suspect, it didnt work at all.

Worse than that. Howe isn't stupid. He would've never pulled what he did if he didn't have a specific guarantee from Loghain that Cailan and his army would be.... unavailable to bring him to justice.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 novembre 2009 - 05:47 .

[ReubenLiew]

For a minute there I almost through this might be a shipping fan-fiction between Loghain and Howe...

[The Angry One]

Tim Curry can allure anyone he wants with his voice, well known fact.

[Herr Uhl]

He doesn't need the voice, a simple flicker of expression of his face has been known to drive people into a frenzy.

[Sarethus]

Kelanil wrote...

Am I the only one wondering about this? Loghain is a paranoid Orlasis hater yet his right hand man is from a family that betrayed the King and sided with Orlasis. I understand Loghain needs a toady to do all the "dirty" work but from what I've seen of Loghain through my numerous playthroughs I just can't see him having a man like Howe in such a trusted and powerful position. 

Um, I'm not that upto date with the books but from what I read from the Dragonage wiki, Howe fought in the rebellion alongside the Couslands. Did his family side with Orlais and Howe was the one who chose to side with Maric or something? 

Edit: The Angry One already answered this apparently while I was busy typing. Thanks

Modifié par Sarethus, 27 novembre 2009 - 06:10 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sarethus wrote...
Um, I'm not that upto date with the books but from what I read from the Dragonage wiki, Howe fought in the rebellion alongside the Couslands. Did his family side with Orlais and Howe was the one who chose to side with Maric or something? 

it was Howes granddad. Arl Rendon Howe fought with Maric.

[Murdario]

The Angry One wrote...

Murdario wrote...

he even told me at ostagar he was aware that cailan had promised to help me kill howe for what he had done and then what does he do? make howe the arl of denerim... if i was supposed to think loghain was anything more than a purely evil villain at any point in the story, like i suspect, it didnt work at all.

Worse than that. Howe isn't stupid. He would've never pulled what he did if he didn't have a specific guarantee from Loghain that Cailan and his army would be.... unavailable to bring him to justice.

you are right, i didnt even think about that. loghain is far more evil than any darkspawn horde or achdemon that just acts on instinct. the dude consciously makes the most evil choice out any option available in any given situation.

[Flamin Jesus]

The Angry One wrote...

Gee... could it be that the books are in fact not the 100% accurate first hand accounts Gaider claims they are? Oh no, can't possibly be *that* now..

You may not like it, but the books are as much canon as any part of the game (Even more so than the game in case of Codex-related issues, considering many of the Codex entries are indeed deliberately contradicting). They're also largely written from the view of the respective characters, not a recounting of events or a stunt like "found diaries" or anything, even *if* you choose to deny that, the opinions and stances of every single NPC who knew Loghain before the game are completely in line with the books.

His actions are those of a sick, insane man, and like many sick, insane men (Especially those in power), the vast majority of his victims live in denial until they're forced to see the facts.
On the other hand, given that he doesn't know the whole story, many of his views aren't entirely unjustified. Cailan is a fool, the Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for a reason (Though the Wardens Keep gives certain insights on their reasons history doesn't exactly remember), and allowing Orlesian troops inside Fereldan borders wouldn't sit well with anyone who vividly remembers the occupation. Take the crippling paranoia away and he'd still have more than enough reasons not to hold any of his opponents in very high regard.
The mere fact that he's wrong about most things doesn't mean anything up until the point when you actually prove him wrong. Many people spend their entire lives grievously wrong about important things and are even willing to kill or sometimes die in defense of their misconceptions.

That said, I believe Loghain didn't know everything about Howe's depravity, the rest I'm willing to chalk up to his paranoia, all of his defenses in the Landsmeet are valid points, though none are in my eyes justification of his actions, but that's because I spent a few dozen hours looking at the issue (And Howe) from the other side, as opposed to his.

[The Angry One]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Gee... could it be that the books are in fact not the 100% accurate first hand accounts Gaider claims they are? Oh no, can't possibly be *that* now..

You may not like it, but the books are as much canon as any part of the game (Even more so than the game in case of Codex-related issues, considering many of the Codex entries are indeed deliberately contradicting). They're also largely written from the view of the respective characters, not a recounting of events or a stunt like "found diaries" or anything, even *if* you choose to deny that, the opinions and stances of every single NPC who knew Loghain before the game are completely in line with the books.

The books can be canon without being 100% right. That's a point I've tried to argue before.
Treating the books like the gospel truth serves no one, not even Gaider. People know Loghain as a war hero, and no doubt he was.
He's also a demented egotist who clearly cares only about himself. Whatever the books may paint him as, the true Loghain is shown here, and it isn't pretty.

On the other hand, given that he doesn't know the whole story, many of his views aren't entirely unjustified. Cailan is a fool,

Is he? He was a somewhat irresponsible leader (his ignorance of internal affairs and Anora's tyranny point to that well enough) with his head in the glory of old. But he wasn't a *bad* war leader either. He fought with his men to inspire them, and despite his bravado he was inclined to wait for support from Orlais, which Loghain was dead against, because he's a paranoid moron and it'd get in the way of his plans for national domination anyway.

the Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for a reason (Though the Wardens Keep gives certain insights on their reasons history doesn't exactly remember),

So? Maric brought them back. He doesn't even respect the decision of his supposed best friend and King because, again, they threaten his power.

and allowing Orlesian troops inside Fereldan borders wouldn't sit well with anyone who vividly remembers the occupation. Take the crippling paranoia away and he'd still have more than enough reasons not to hold any of his opponents in very high regard.

Yes.. of course, letting the darkspawn in instead was sooooo much more preferable to the people they ate, I'm sure.

The mere fact that he's wrong about most things doesn't mean anything up until the point when you actually prove him wrong. Many people spend their entire lives grievously wrong about important things and are even willing to kill or sometimes die in defense of their misconceptions.

He's wrong about blindingly obvious things - like the darkspawn. Blight or no they were wrecking all of southern Ferelden while he was sitting on his throne with his fingers in his ears going "la la la".

That said, I believe Loghain didn't know everything about Howe's depravity, the rest I'm willing to chalk up to his paranoia, all of his defenses in the Landsmeet are valid points, though none are in my eyes justification of his actions, but that's because I spent a few dozen hours looking at the issue (And Howe) from the other side, as opposed to his.

There is no possible way he could be that closely associated with Howe and not know what he was up to, especially as some of Howe's actions required Loghain's support.

[Dark83]

"He disagrees with me! Kill him!"
"He might disagree with me! Kill him!"
"He's listening to somebody other than me! Kill him!"

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

The books can be canon without being 100% right. That's a point I've tried to argue before.
Treating the books like the gospel truth serves no one, not even Gaider. People know Loghain as a war hero, and no doubt he was.
He's also a demented egotist who clearly cares only about himself. Whatever the books may paint him as, the true Loghain is shown here, and it isn't pretty.

The game doesn't show much about Loghain really.  You know what he did and the main reason why (Orleasian bad, Blight is false).  And amongst the things it does show, one of the few times it shows him actually making a decision on something, he's being manipulated by Howe, accepting Howe's idea of what should be done.

I see Loghain as a hard man, one willing to make a decision and then stick it through.  But not really suited for politics.  That was left to his friend, the former king.  And when he felt the need to deal with the Orleasian threat, he unfortunately turned to Howe to help with the policitical aspects.

Overall, the books will be more canon than the game though, since ultimately, only one of the paths we can take through the game actually happened.

Is he? He was a somewhat irresponsible leader (his ignorance of internal affairs and Anora's tyranny point to that well enough) with his head in the glory of old. But he wasn't a *bad* war leader either. He fought with his men to inspire them, and despite his bravado he was inclined to wait for support from Orlais, which Loghain was dead against, because he's a paranoid moron and it'd get in the way of his plans for national domination anyway.

He was a good leader, not the best ruler though.  Anora plus him made a good pair though.  She is a good ruler, and combined with Maric's charm and idealism, you end up with a pair that would have been remembered, especially since they did seem to love each other.

Yes.. of course, letting the darkspawn in instead was sooooo much more preferable to the people they ate, I'm sure.

Eaten or else raped, beaten, tortured, starved, made sport of, and then killed.  They've got good reasons to hate the Orleasians.  Paramount to Loghain's thinking was that this was a false Blight.  Not a wise thing to do, better safe than sorry, but then, that's why he did what he did, didn't want Orleasians in, better safe than sorry.

He's wrong about blindingly obvious things - like the darkspawn. Blight or no they were wrecking all of southern Ferelden while he was sitting on his throne with his fingers in his ears going "la la la".

He'd have dealt with it sooner if certain nobles hadn't started a civil war though.  When that happened, he felt he had to unify the country, to have the full support of it to deal with the Blight.  Civil war was a possibility, but not part of the original plan.

There is no possible way he could be that closely associated with Howe and not know what he was up to, especially as some of Howe's actions required Loghain's support.

Agree with that.  

I think a lot of the more dastardly parts were most likely Howe's ideas, things Loghain went along with because he felt painted into a corner, but still felt he was the best, probably the only, choice to save the land, and he needed things to come together quickly.

Hate and Pride, the two things that led Loghain down the path he went.

[Flamin Jesus]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...
He's also a demented egotist who clearly cares only about himself. Whatever the books may paint him as, the true Loghain is shown here, and it isn't pretty.
[/quote]
All his actions *can* be construed as selfish, none of them *have* to, if he had been right (that is, if there hadn't been a Blight or if the Wardens weren't necessary, and if there had been an Orlesian ploy to usurp Ferelden once more), all of his actions would have been justified, he tried to defend/fight on two fronts because he perceived an enemy that wasn't there (Which is, well, textbook paranoia). We know that the Wardens have no intention of conquering Ferelden, how should he?
[quote]
[quote]On the other hand, given that he doesn't know the whole story, many of his views aren't entirely unjustified. Cailan is a fool,[/quote]

Is he? He was a somewhat irresponsible leader (his ignorance of internal affairs and Anora's tyranny point to that well enough) with his head in the glory of old. But he wasn't a *bad* war leader either. He fought with his men to inspire them, and despite his bravado he was inclined to wait for support from Orlais, which Loghain was dead against, because he's a paranoid moron and it'd get in the way of his plans for national domination anyway.
[/quote]
Well, Cailan is not the brightest bulb in the bunch, I think we can at least agree on that (I don't really see anything mentioned anywhere about Anora's tyranny, she's just fulfilling the administrative role he fails to fulfill). And again, if we look at it from Loghain's point (That is, if we assume for a moment that he is indeed worried about Ferelden more than about his personal gain) it makes sense to keep the Orlesians out of the country, nobody except the Wardens is convinced they're actually facing a Blight, and abandoning a king who (in his eyes) is about to give away the throne to the nation's sworn enemies to fight against a nonexistant threat, while at the same time preserving his troops to fight them somewhere else without royal interference isn't necessarily a strategic failure.
[quote]
[quote]the Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for a reason (Though the Wardens Keep gives certain insights on their reasons history doesn't exactly remember), [/quote]

So? Maric brought them back. He doesn't even respect the decision of his supposed best friend and King because, again, they threaten his power.
[/quote]
Or his country, if they're indeed in bed with the Orlesians. Respecting the decision of your best friend if you know he's wrong (Which he believes) may be loyal, but it's not particularly smart, especially if a lot of lives hinge on that wrong decision.
[quote]
[quote]and allowing Orlesian troops inside Fereldan borders wouldn't sit well with anyone who vividly remembers the occupation. Take the crippling paranoia away and he'd still have more than enough reasons not to hold any of his opponents in very high regard.[/quote]

Yes.. of course, letting the darkspawn in instead was sooooo much more preferable to the people they ate, I'm sure.
[/quote]
Nobody was convinved there was a Blight, allowing a few hundred people to get eaten to strengthen his powerbase and keep his armies alive in preparation for an imminent invasion would make sense from his point of view.
[quote]
[quote]The mere fact that he's wrong about most things doesn't mean anything up until the point when you actually prove him wrong. Many people spend their entire lives grievously wrong about important things and are even willing to kill or sometimes die in defense of their misconceptions.[/quote]

He's wrong about blindingly obvious things - like the darkspawn. Blight or no they were wrecking all of southern Ferelden while he was sitting on his throne with his fingers in his ears going "la la la".
[/quote]
Here we come back full circle to the two fronts he's fighting on, one real, one imaginary. He hardly has the option to fight the darkspawn with only part of the country, either he wins but is defeated immediately afterwards by the rebels and their Orlesian taskmasters, or he loses, in which case the nation is even weaker to overcome the Darkspawn and falls to Orlais one way or another.
[quote]
[quote]That said, I believe Loghain didn't know everything about Howe's depravity, the rest I'm willing to chalk up to his paranoia, all of his defenses in the Landsmeet are valid points, though none are in my eyes justification of his actions, but that's because I spent a few dozen hours looking at the issue (And Howe) from the other side, as opposed to his.
[/quote]

There is no possible way he could be that closely associated with Howe and not know what he was up to, especially as some of Howe's actions required Loghain's support.

[/quote]
Maybe, but then again, he serves a function. It's certainly not nice to tortue prisoners, sell slaves and what have you, but if it's a necessary step to save everyone else, it's more of an "ends justify the means" attitude than a truly selfish act.
To put it another way, if you'd have to kill (or allow someone else to kill) a few people to defend everyone else (Which he believed he did by staying in power, thanks to his delusions), would you refuse to do so?

[Murdario]

you people have convinced me. hitler... errr, i mean loghain wasnt such a bad guy after all. he was just doing what he thought was right for his people. you know, stuff like uniting the nation by getting rid of "undesirables", poisoning his political enemies who would seek to destabilize the nation and allowing his supporters to rape and pillage as they pleased. surely that doesnt make hitl... i mean loghain evil? he was just a little bit paranoid. thats all.

[its_you]

In short it is not black and white and it will be easier to understand things if you stop looking at it as such

[ReubenLiew]

Damn you Godwin!!

[Dark83]

Yeah, clearly the evil Jews Orlesians were coming! That justifies everything!

[Herr Uhl]

Why must ha be be compared with Hitler, Nero is way more fun as a paranoid ruler.



Burn Rome, BURN!