315 réponses à ce sujet

[WizenSlinky0]

Hrm. I can't say this would work unless it's actually meant to be an open ending. You'd have to survive the battle on earth with enough forces to engage the reapers across the galaxy. The ones on earth aren't the only ones. It's their main force but there's still tons of them out there.

Even if they could pull off a victory on Earth, the likelihood of them having enough firepower left to re-take the rest of the galaxy...seems slim.

[Aedan276]

 I do think that Shepard's refusal shouldhave an effect on the Star Child that somehow weakens or confuses the Reapers, since it would constitute one last personal contribution from him and give the fleets a possible edge to explain away the idea that conventional warfare can't work. 

Not necessary, though. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 12 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[joshuam168]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

joshuam168 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

joshuam168 wrote...

This fourth option has many holes in it based on previously established lore.

In the first game Sovreign states "We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." We could take this as Sovreign being arrogant. However this statement appears to be backed up by the last scene of ME2, where we see only a margin of the reaper fleet in intergalactic space, showing hundreds if not thousand of reapers. And this view was only a partial view of the fleet.

Also, if you go around and read descriptions of the planets in ME3 you will see it mentioned how there are numerous ships in each of the systems.

Now how could even the combined forces of all the species hope to defeat a, most likely, equal if not greater force of massively technologically superior ships. Even though they are spread out it could be assumed that since they are all connected the other Reapers would rally to the Sol system when it is realized that the small Reaper force at Earth is outnumbered and join the fight. Also keep in mind that the galaxies army is very lacking in dreadnoughts as pointed out in the treaty of Farixen, so the majority of that fleet would be made up of mostly smaller ships which would barely scathe reaper capital ships.Even in ME3 it is continually mentioned how the combined might of the galaxy could not overcome the reaper threat, otherwise why invest such a massive amount of resources in the crucible.

Therefore, established lore already greatly contradicts this alternate ending. There are way too many lore discrepancies. Also the endings we already have cannot be said to have "plot holes", as it gives hints as to what and why the reapers and cycle happen, leaving much to be inferred by the player. So the supposed "plot holes" are mostly the inference of players.

No, they're plotholes.

Thank you for that well stipulated argument that completely disproves me. Feel free to provide links or some such evidence...

Beyond the ass backwards motivation of the Star Child, based entirely in circular reasoning, lack of exposition regarding what the Star Child is, why he himself did not simply activate the Citadel to let the Reapers through dark sapce, lack of exposition regarding the nature of the crucible, lack of any exposition regarding how your squad-mates survived or how/why Joker was fleeing the battle, amongst a million other things.

Your argument regarding Sovereign's claims could also do with some work. He also told us that the Reapers have no beginning and have no end, which was ultimately just exaggeration. Aka, Sovereign's word is not law. The cutscene itself did not show thousands of Reapers, but simply implied that there were many moving through dark space. Even given the 37 million year age of the Reapers and 50k year cycle, that gives them at most 740 complete Reapers, not counting failures as per the Prothean situation. In addition, ME3 indicates the increasing ability of organics to counter-act the Reapers, as per Palaven where we do hear stories of success against Reaper capital ships. Is the rewrite perfect? No, but it builds off of everything the narrative has built up. And I have an easier time accepting that max galactic readiness will result in victory than in magic green light altering the distinction which turns everyone into hybrids.

I will give you that there isn't closure. Again your supposed "plot holes", ie why didn't he open citadel, merely YOUR conjecture, maybe he was inactive. Most likely the catalyst is an AI therefore the protheans disrupting the signal may have been HIS signal and he was unable to counteract it, but again thats conjecture.

If you read my entire post you can see that i said Sovreign is arrogant, I didn't use his word as law. I then back it up with the cut scene where i said HUNDREDS if not thousand and there is implication of many more. And again the entries on the planets support the fact that there are numerous reapers.

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers
Read under reaper variants there is not only one reaper made per cycle. Impossible to determine how many lesser, so to speak, species that were made into destroyers. Also no proof protheans were a failure merely conjecture in the second game. After all husks are made from humans doesn't mean a reaper could couldn't be made from humans.
 At palaven a suprise attack was taken, it was implied in codex entry that the dreadnoughts probably couldn't have won. And in any case the reapers countered immediately and much more devastatingly.

Modifié par joshuam168, 12 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[recentio]

D***. I thought several of the same things: child morph between characters Shep actually knows and cares about during his nightmares and at the end and Harbinger is the final boss last night, too. You wrote much more than that and very well. Though, I do think the conversation with god needs to be shorter. Talking heads can only hold attention for a short amount of time...

One thing hurting the game, I think, is the lack of development for a single, central antagonist over the course of the game. It has no clear villain.

I'd love it if the Catalyst was a trick. Harbinger trying to get Shepard to foolishly destroy his own galaxy. If Harbinger would "ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL" of Anderson, TIM, LI (if in final squad, which should be with him), or best friend (again if in final squad). And that was the pre-final boss fight. Who Harbinger controls could depend on how you played. Paragon: Harbinger takes over TIM. Mixed reputation: Anderson. Renegade: LI/bff. Then you think you've beaten Harbinger and enter the Crucible. The godkid gives you his crazy spiel. Shepard sees through it and resists. Harbinger reveals himself in his true form. Final battle. Victory. Shep approaches the Crucible controls and with his remaining squaddie(s)/Anderson figures out how to:

• trick the reapers into thinking they succeeded and retreat for another 50k (perfect ending)
• turn the reapers against each other (mixed consequences ending)
• summons the reapers to rendezvous at some location, drawing them to their respective mass relays, which then propel them out beyond the edges of the galaxy into deep-deep space where it will take 100 years to fly back (good ending)
• fail at the above due to low EMS and the reapers:

• (1.2) destroy the mass relays themselves, giving the fleets enough opportunity to defeat them in Sol (mixed ending 2)
• (2.2) destroy the crucible for being the source of the signal trying to trick them (bad ending)
• (3.2) summons all of the slumbering reapers lurking at the center of the galaxy to join their fellows and lead to the rapid and immediate destruction of all civilizations (worst ending)

Modifié par recentio, 12 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[MedhiaNox]

Johannes1212: Well done sir - I think I would have enjoyed that ending.

Especially the outcome of all your decisions. Wrex actually showing emotion over his children was a particular spark of brilliance on your part. Not only is he a bad ass violent Krogan king... but he's a loving dad. Quite awesome.

Quarians sacrificing for the promise of the homeworld they just regained...

The Destiny Ascension being protected by the army that once tried to obliterate it...

All very well placed strokes. I commend you on your efforts.

[LostHero2k9]

This is how the end should have look like.
Not more, not less.

Screw you Bioware!!

[pika9519]

This is actually pretty damn amazing.
Excellent job!

[Joyceee]

wookieboy15 wrote...

This is fantastic. One minor detail, I would still like to see my Shepard survive IF he achieved the perfect ending. I know some people won't like it but i don't give a rats ass, I want my shepard/tali babies!

Agreed. Whatever the ending, some people just want to see Shepard alive. Losing a character like Shepard - so strong, heroic, three dimensional - would be heartbreaking. Please! Some of us want our Shepards to live!

Modifié par Joyceee, 12 mars 2012 - 04:45 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

joshuam168 wrote...

I will give you that there isn't closure. Again your supposed "plot holes", ie why didn't he open citadel, merely YOUR conjecture, maybe he was inactive. Most likely the catalyst is an AI therefore the protheans disrupting the signal may have been HIS signal and he was unable to counteract it, but again thats conjecture.

Lack of exposition on anything critical to the existence of the story is a plothole. You're imagining reasons which we are not given, otherwise we start making everything up. Here's the facts:

1)the Reapers use the Citadel to cut off galactic civilizations, to make their "harvesting" substantially easier.
2)Sovereign's purpose as the vanguard is to usher in the galactic extinction, through the trap.
3) the God child is an entity which exists in or as part of the Citadel.

Why did the Reapers bother to build a separate entity to deliver the genocide when the one controlling them, literally as part of the galactic trap, is sitting right there.

If you read my entire post you can see that i said Sovreign is arrogant, I didn't use his word as law. I then back it up with the cut scene where i said HUNDREDS if not thousand and there is implication of many more.

There are no implications. There is only what we were shown. Point where we are shown that there are thousands of Reapers in existence.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers
Read under reaper variants there is not only one reaper made per cycle. Impossible to determine how many lesser, so to speak, species that were made into destroyers. Also no proof protheans were a failure merely conjecture in the second game. After all husks are made from humans doesn't mean a reaper could couldn't be made from humans.
 At palaven a suprise attack was taken, it was implied in codex entry that the dreadnoughts probably couldn't have won. And in any case the reapers countered immediately and much more devastatingly.

And the lesser can be destroyed, even more easily than the capital ships. The point of the best ending giving victory is that the Reapers at this point have never faced a united galactic society in direct combat, far as the story can tell us. Hell, as far as the child can tell us, with Shepard having come farther than any other character in reaching him. The primary point: you are suggesting victory is impossible, when success on this scale had never even been accomplished before.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 12 mars 2012 - 04:44 .

[xeNNN]

very very very impressive now THAT is an ending that i could live with.

[anexanhume]

I disagree that they could have killed the reapers by force. They simply lacked the military might. The Protheans, arguably greater than this cycle, took centuries to die out, but still ultimately lost. Everything in the game tells you that a direct military conflict is not possible, not realistic. Here's my idea for an ending that changes less but doesn't have unexplainable aspects to it:

[blast knocks Shepard back, fade to black]

[cut to field near beam, panning over desolation, finally focusing on two forms lying on the ground]

Squadmate 1: "Norma... Joker... did Shep... Shepard do it?"
Traynor: "Squadmate 1? Where are you?"
[squadmate 2 begins to come to]
Squadmate 1: "We're near the beam... reapers... gone..."
Traynor: "I've got your signal. Coming to get you."

[Normandy leaves space, fighting through debris field to get down to location. Crewmembers jump off, including Traynor, to assist 2 squadmates]

Squadmate 1 [hobbling]: "Where's Joker?"
Traynor: "...EDI is dead."
Squadmate 1: "...and Shepard?"
[Traynor shakes head]

[Squadmate 1 (also LI if you did that), back on normandy goes to comm system to try and contact Shepard]
Squadmate 1: "Shepard, are you out there?"
Squadmate 1: "Shepard... please..."
[Squadmate 1, struggling to hear, hears faint crackle and static in response]

Squadmate 1: "I heard something. I've got to go find Shepard."
Traynor: "The Citadel is exploding. Squadmate 1, I'm sorry, but there's no way..."

[Squadmate 1 goes to Shuttle anyway, ignoring Traynor]

Traynor: "If you go, you're going to die."
Squadmate 1: "Try and stop me and lose that pretty little arm."
[Traynor, shocked, steps backward]
Squadmate 2: "I'm going with."

[cut to shuttle coming into wreckage in the slow process of blowing up, squadmate 1 and 2 search the rubble and find Shepard, pushing rubble off him. Squadmate 1 shakes him, his eyes faintly flutter open and he musters a smile. His body broken, squadmate 1 picks him up and struggles back to the shuttle (already injured him or herself). Squadmate 2 helps Anderson if he is alive. As the squadmates bring Shepard on board, the crew gathers to see him walk by. As they carry him by, Shepard is visibly crying, lamenting about the people he couldn't save, the geth, and the fact that the relays are destroyed. Many squadmates hear this and realize they'll never see home again. Shepard is brought into medical room as he is still rambling about what he couldn't do. Chakwas and Squadmate 1 stand over him as squadmate 1 consoles him and Chakwas puts him under to repair his broken body]

[Final scene is Shepard, surrounded by his crew at a makeshift celebration ceremony amongst the rubble. They acknowledge that the result is not fully to their satisfaction but understand Shepard did what he must and regard him as a hero. The end. You don't even need the stargazer epilogue.]


The ending where something crucial is lost makes sense because we know the reapers way outmatched organic civilization. There logically had to be some suboptimal outcome that resulted in the reapers being gone. To say that the forces could beat the reapers in a straight up armed conflict is ingenuous and insults the intelligence of the player.

Modifié par anexanhume, 12 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[drfox96]

THat's it ... i need to see my effort through the game , i need to see all the war assets i collected play its part ... whether sheperd lives or dies

[Heretic19]

The only problem is that basically.... with the child turning into Harbinger... it negates the other choices and makes it known that this is the only good outcome. I personally would choose this option, of course. But some people would like to choose the other endings without feeling like they were being controlled by Harbinger. Also if you get every asset, Shepard should be able to get swooped by the Normandy

[z-r0]

Reading all this helps a bit. The first time I smile. In days to be honest. And suddenly all the other 3 endings start to feel like a huge troll. They must have had something like this in mind at a certain point of writing.

[Crimzon Nutcase]

Give this man a job (Arkis). That was beautiful, I myself had been thinking of a way to utilize the current ending. Honestly the way this is portrayed is quite poetic and it maintains the nature of the series. I'll certainly be passing this around to the 30'ish friends I have playing ME3. Thank you as well, Johannes.

[joshuam168]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

joshuam168 wrote...

I will give you that there isn't closure. Again your supposed "plot holes", ie why didn't he open citadel, merely YOUR conjecture, maybe he was inactive. Most likely the catalyst is an AI therefore the protheans disrupting the signal may have been HIS signal and he was unable to counteract it, but again thats conjecture.

Lack of exposition on anything critical to the existence of the story is a plothole. You're imagining reasons which we are not given, otherwise we start making everything up. Here's the facts:

1)the Reapers use the Citadel to cut off galactic civilizations, to make their "harvesting" substantially easier.
2)Sovereign's purpose as the vanguard is to usher in the galactic extinction, through the trap.
3) the God child is an entity which exists in or as part of the Citadel.

Why did the Reapers bother to build a separate entity to deliver the genocide when the one controlling them, literally as part of the galactic trap, is sitting right there.

If you read my entire post you can see that i said Sovreign is arrogant, I didn't use his word as law. I then back it up with the cut scene where i said HUNDREDS if not thousand and there is implication of many more.

There are no implications. There is only what we were shown. Point where we are shown that there are thousands of Reapers in existence.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers
Read under reaper variants there is not only one reaper made per cycle. Impossible to determine how many lesser, so to speak, species that were made into destroyers. Also no proof protheans were a failure merely conjecture in the second game. After all husks are made from humans doesn't mean a reaper could couldn't be made from humans.
 At palaven a suprise attack was taken, it was implied in codex entry that the dreadnoughts probably couldn't have won. And in any case the reapers countered immediately and much more devastatingly.

And the lesser can be destroyed, even more easily than the capital ships. The point of the best ending giving victory is that the Reapers at this point have never faced a united galactic society in direct combat, far as the story can tell us. Hell, as far as the child can tell us, with Shepard having come farther than any other character in reaching him. The primary point: you are suggesting victory is impossible, when success on this scale had never even been accomplished before.

I am not the only one imagining reasons. Who said the reapers built the catalyst? And you directly contradict yourself why would the reapers build something that exerts complete and total control over them?  And we are supposed to imagine reasons otherwise bioware would have had the catalyst tell us every single answer to all questions, but instead they left it up to debate.


Also in the cut scene we are shown a reaper "horde" that does not end within the camera scope, therfore yes an implication.

Yes the lesser can be destroyed but with their firepower IF there is even an equal number of destroyer they could take out the entire galactic fleet on their own most likely. And yes that is an assumption on their numbers but so would saying that there isnt that many.  And you again draw on assumption by saying that the reapers have NEVER faced a united galactic society, where is that said? The only cycles definitively talked about are this one and the protheans. Most of your "plot holes" you bring forth are assumptions.

[SpaZzle_AE]

 THIS is what we need. Not a everyone's happy ending but to see our actions come to fruition.

[Morhonri]

Well, I've just mentaly switched what actually happened in my game with this. I would have been overjoyed with this. A work of art, thank you.

[OneRabidAnt]

I'm good with this ending. Got shivers reading it.

[MacNille]

I would like if i could kill the Star Child. I hate that ****er!

[Frocharocha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can't say I like the fourth option. It implies the Reapers can be defeated through conventional means. That would reduce from the cosmic menace they are to mere enemies. I also dislike the insinuation that Synthesis means everyone becomes like Husks. That's clearly not what is intended.

The extended dialogue in the other parts is good though.

They can. You saw the maw killing the Reaper destroyer and the flotilla armada blewing up one as well tons of dead Reapers above Earth. The Reapers simple can make more damage and resist more damage. Also, the Child could just be Harbringer mind raping Shepard forcing to help the Reapers. (what i think i'ts true).  Also, this would be a super epic conclusion. Very good ending indeed, how couldn't Bioware think on that?

[Nitrius]

Interesting read, and i must say, if this really was the actual ending, i would be a lot happier with the game.

[VerdantSF]

Oh look!  A CHOICE to defy that little Star Child ****?  Hell yes.  Nice work, Arkis!

Modifié par VerdantSF, 12 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[Skypezee]

It's a little bit rough but it's in the realms of how I would have expected one of the endings would be. After all, since when would Shepard listen to some reaper-child AI? Shepard is all about telling naysayers to stuff it as they go on to prove how wrong they are in their line of thinking (especially if you made certain decisions that would disprove what it is the other person is claiming).

In other words, if that choice was there then everything would end up playing out based on how well prepared your allies are, the choices you made, and if you had enough war assets to survive (though at great cost of life).

[Skypezee]

Frocharocha wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can't say I like the fourth option. It implies the Reapers can be defeated through conventional means. That would reduce from the cosmic menace they are to mere enemies. I also dislike the insinuation that Synthesis means everyone becomes like Husks. That's clearly not what is intended.

The extended dialogue in the other parts is good though.

They can. You saw the maw killing the Reaper destroyer and the flotilla armada blewing up one as well tons of dead Reapers above Earth. The Reapers simple can make more damage and resist more damage. Also, the Child could just be Harbringer mind raping Shepard forcing to help the Reapers. (what i think i'ts true).  Also, this would be a super epic conclusion. Very good ending indeed, how couldn't Bioware think on that?

Plus in ME1 they were able to defeat Sovereign through conventional means (IE bombarding it with heavy gun fire).

And like you said, a reaper on Tuchunka was defeated by the mother of all Thresher Maws and a reaper on Rannoch was defeated by the flotilla. The Reapers never easily went down, but it has been proven that they can be defeated by conventional means. It just takes a lot of effort to do so.