63 réponses à ce sujet

[kolar_jure]

 A lot of people have been complaining about the ending, so here's an explanation: 
Smiley556 wrote...

 The only thing I am suprised about is how many people in the mass effect player community did not understand the ending. My faith in this community is dwindling as I see them rage.

I dont understand how people dont see that the whole sequence after shepard gets blasted by harbinger is played out in his head. It is all extremely obvious and the game has been working up to it. The way indoctrination is explained over the game (making people think they are willingly helping the reapers, convinced that the reapers serve a greater cause, and uplifting the reapers as some godlike being in the subjects mind).Also the dream sequences, there are multiple dream sequences in the game so as to make it entirely possible that the ending sequence could be some hallucination too.

Now for the events itself, they are extremly clear. Harbinger, the one reaper who has been trying to indoctrinate shepard for so long, blasts shepard. He wakes up, hears whispers (Like every person that was being indoctrinated) and finds a pistol with unlimited ammo (the kind of inaccure detail one would find in a dream). He steps into the beam and gets teleported to the Citadel, the citadel which is horribly inaccurate (not recognisable, keepers cant be shot, dead human bodies litter the place in dramatic fashion which makes no sense except if imagined by shepards dispairing brain). Then theres Anderson, shepards father figure, who has no possiblity to be there (no survivors from the beam, cant have gotten passed shepard somehow). However it would make sense that he was there if it was a concotion of shepards brain, ofcourse shepard would imagine anderson there. They dont recognise the citadel, another thing commonly assosiated with dreams (if your in a dream everything makes sense, untill you start examining your surroundings and realise it totally unlogical and unrecognisable, you usually wake up not soon after). He gets to the console with anderson there, obviously imagined since anderson couldnt have gotten past shepard and according to the conversation he was only a couple seconds ahead yet you dont see him. Another figure of shepards imagination pops up out of nowhere, the illusive man. More dispair enters shepards brain as he imagines the illusive mans power, forcing him to shoot anderson. Through sheer will of force he overcomes his thoughts of the illusive man, either through breaking lose and shooting him, or by making him shoot himself.

Then comes the reaper who talks directly to shepard. You know, that reaper that presents itself as the ghost of the kid haunting shepards dream and as a godlike figure. If you read the indoctrination codex you will see indoctrinated people see reapers as godlike figures. You also clearly (or not so very clearly) hear harbingers voice in the background while the kid speaks and he refers to himself as 'we' everytime he talks about the reapers (ie. he's being pretty blatant about being a reaper). The reaper then comes up with an explenation which would make it (vaguely) seem as if the reapers serve a greater purpose (again, read the codex entry on indoctrination).
Shortly after shepard is presented with 3 choices. There is only one choice that is considered 'good' for it gives the possibility for shepard to survive and, interestingly, this is also the choice portrayed as being the worst choice according to the reaper. "you can control the reapers, just touch the lightning thing, you will die (ie. succumb to us) but everything will be alright. Or you can jump in the beam, you will die, but everything will be alright. Or you can shoot that thing, you will destroy the reapers, but it will destroy all synthetics, even you are part synthetic and you will kill the geth and your friend edi". Everything points out that the reapers Doesnt want you to make that choice, he wants shepard to willingly choose one of the other 2 options (thus completing the indoctrination of shepard).

Shepard keeps his mind cool and picks destroy the reapers, defying what the reapers wants him to do. He then imagines all that he expects to happen, and includes his hopes and wishes. His friends who were with him at the beam somehow got to safety. He imagines them stepping out of the normandy unharmed on  a distant world, giving him some peace of mind. He wakes up back in the rubble on earth, Harbinger has failed.
Now we wait for Bioware to release the end (obviously this hallucination wasnt the end) for which I am gratefull. They made sure nobody gets spoiled cos of differing release dates around the globe and the datamining of the possible endings (the end isnt in the game yet so that it cant be datamined, its brilliant really).

I sincerely hope we can stop raging now.

[WarBaby2]

kolar_jure wrote...

A lot of people have been complaining about the ending, so here's an explanation: 

Yup, thanks for AN explanation... not the first one people had to come up with becaus the ending didn't make sense...

I will go on "raging" (checks pulse)... hm... *simile*

[netfrik]

I don't care what you think, because this is an actual ending.

[kolar_jure]

This is a very logical explanation, go read the codex on indoctrination. It makes a lot of sense, because the ending alone didn't.

[blackfx]

Anderson was behind Shepard.. may have missed Shepard on the way in and in no way did it feel like a dream.

[kolar_jure]

there are clear signs that this is not real. read the article above and the codex on indoctrination. unlimited ammo can only appear in a dream.

[blackfx]

unlimited ammo? you are out of your mind.

[Nefelius]

Oh. my. god. Another BS "dream" thread. Really?

It's when you can't accept the facts and start imagining things. Let' me hug and confort you. Hush, it's ok. It's just the writings sucks. There's no "dream" conspiracies.

Modifié par Nefelius, 12 mars 2012 - 03:13 .

[lionalio87]

I'm not done yet with the game. I've just wandered around this forum and seen so many gamers furious about Mass Effect 3 ending. I won't contribute for the raging community out there before complete the game my own, but I expect that there will be some logical explanation and acceptable reason for ending the game like that.

Let's hope that this topic has its own right, if not, maybe we should list the ME 3 in the list of OMGWTF moment in video games history!
(just like these: )

[JasonTan87]

JasonTan87 wrote...

Keep in mind; with such an ending without a closure, it is very easy to see what we each want to see. It's very easy to read into the narrative and find things that are not there. Hope, combined with emotional desperation, makes a most persuasive force. (This reminds me of TIM's own failing)

I myself am wary of giving the writers too much credit; especially in instances where there is the possibility of me deluding myself into making a masterpiece out of someone's sloppy work. Traditionally, Mass Effect followed fairly conventional soap-opera conventions. Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games. Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

The thing is, we can't tell if this is deliberate just yet. I'm most willing to buy into this theory, but I can't help but ask myself:

If this was really true, why hold the 'real ending' back? Why not just release it with the rest of the game, and be credited for the stroke of genious? Why risk the fan backlash? Why look sloppy when you can look good right off?

Why troll us, their fans?

You know, they could have just told us in a press release, with a sly smile, that it's not over yet. Then they wouldn't have any of this PR firestorm on their hands.

Even if it was true, the current state that ME3 was released in (supposedly a complete game out of the box) is also paramount to bad writing. The narrative, as it is now, it violates the reader-writer contract by not offering the real ending to provide closure to the story. Even if there was an overarching meta-narrative embedded within, the writing must be consistant and clear enough for us to reach that conclusion without having a 'panel' to 'interpret' the ending for us. Mass Effect 3 has neither.

The very fact that the 'panel' has to 'interpret' their vision to us shows how the narrative has failed to communicate the different levels of the narrative.

In addition; the whole crucible thing itself could have been handled more adequately. Hallucination is not an excuse for sloppy writing. The writing for the crucible onwards; while brillant if this theory holds true; still feels sloppy and rushed. Imagine how much more convincing if they had a fluent narrative without the gigantic plot holes, and the Normandy had a proper reason for running away with your crew all on it. It also end with Normandy getting knocked out of FTL, but not show the crew coming out of the Normandy on some random planet.

The fact that the ending feels rushed worries me; because such meta-narrative twists require a high level of finesse to pull off.

What worries me the most is that people are losing their objectivity, calling what what may very well be a rushed conclusion 'a stroke of genius'. We must never forget that Bioware is telling us a story, and the very fact that we are unable to see the structure of the meta-narrative clearly (if it even exists) shows an inability to communicate their artistic vision properly through the medium.

[Stalker]

Honestly, if they pull this ending as a whole player-indoctrination, they have the chance of achieving the best ending in gaming history.

[JasonTan87]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Honestly, if they pull this ending as a whole player-indoctrination, they have the chance of achieving the best ending in gaming history.

It'll be a fantastic idea, but it'll still bad storytelling. Unless they release DLC to patch up the holes and provide some sort of resolution.

In that case, it'll be decent storytelling but a terrible PR stunt.

[raeting]

I'd be all for the hallucination if the game continued after shepard wakes up.

Otherwise, meh.

[Rezear]

If this is really how Bioware meant it to happen, then it would be a genius ending.

If...

Modifié par Rezear, 12 mars 2012 - 03:26 .

[Natedog4337]

when I first played the ending, everything after Harbinger's blast screamed "dream sequence" at me. the slow motion, the whispers, and even the surreal bordering around the screen when talking to TIM. Then I started my second playthrough and experienced the same thing when Ashley was curb stomped on Mars. My guess it that it could be either Shepard hallucinating or he's just in shock from taking a dreadnaught-killing laser beam to the face.

[Asnine112]

kolar_jure wrote...

there are clear signs that this is not real. read the article above and the codex on indoctrination. unlimited ammo can only appear in a dream.

And ME1

[Tom Jolly]

I think the OP is onto something with regard to indoctrination, but I read it differently:  Shepard is not indoctriniated during the scene with the Catalyst.    The catalyst is able to present itself to Shepard in an appropriate form BECAUSE of indoctrination tech:  It has touched Shepards mind ... along with Anderson's and Illusive Man's.  This is demonstrated by the 2 visions showing Anderson and IM making their respective choices. 

[Thornne]

If they meant for the entire ending to be a dream, I don't think they would have put a dialog box afterward that clearly states "You have defeated the Reaper menace."

Sorry, but I don't think that's it.

[kolar_jure]

I read somewhere that Bioware had an ending completed. You wake up after this and continue and fight the Illusive man as a final boss. They had to cut it form the actual game because it somehow got leaked.

[Captain Arty]

I think the theory in the OP is more creative than what Bioware came up with.

But I think the cutscene after the credits rules out that this was a dream. I think they meant this as the final end-all ending.

Which means they've substantially harmed their chances for sequels by writing themselves into a corner.

[Wheatax]

kolar_jure wrote...
I read somewhere that Bioware had an ending completed. You wake up after this and continue and fight the Illusive man as a final boss. They had to cut it form the actual game because it somehow got leaked.

I'm not sure about the info on they had an ending completed. But I do know they were planning to make TIM as the final boss but they scrapped that idea. Here's the quote from the artbook on TIM designs:

"One of the plans on the drawing board was to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give the players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature. The design implies that the Illusive Man's weapon is his intelligence, not his physical strength.

Below are some of the concepts for the Illusive Man and his observation room. Some vary the color of the dying sun in the background, and one version shows the sun eclipsed.

Numerous facial concepts were made to establish what level of indoctrination the Illusive Man had undergone. A few variations went so far as to reference Saren from the first Mass Effect."
--- taken from The Art of Mass Effect Universe ---

And below that description there's a few concepts of brute like reaper with TIM face on it and a few of his faces undergoing several stages of indoctrination.

As for the indoctrination theory that OP mentioned, a great theory and  makes much more sense really when compared to the whole situation. If they do intentionally made it like that, well... it makes things a bit better and I sure as hell want to know what really happens. If only they would have shown Harbinger's doom when the Destroy choice was picked and scrapped that Stargazer part, that would have helped reduce my confusion on the endings a bit lol

Modifié par Drotter, 12 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[JoeLaTurkeyII]

Wow, you know the ending must suck when "it was all a dream" actually makes it look better.

[blah64]

Would be awesome if this was the case. However, I don't think it was intended to be. That said, if BW is smart, that's how they will spin it when they release some DLC to fix this garbage. So many things about these ending are just wrong, don't make sense, and leave me as a loyal player feeling cheated.

[kolar_jure]

JoeLaTurkeyII wrote...

Wow, you know the ending must suck when "it was all a dream" actually makes it look better.

Yeah, it did suck

[AartB]

the fact that we need these topics shows how horribly bad the endings are.