375 réponses à ce sujet

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

It's stupid. It's really not very well thought out to assume that Shepard, with his limited frame of reference, is anywhere near equipped to reason with and and convince the Catalyst that his millions of years of observation is incorrect. We're given enough information during the game to assume that it's not lying.

And again, no. Stopping the reapers isn't a means to an end. It's the end. Saving various galactic civilizations from themselves was a means to this end... you might remember the missions helping the Geth and Quarians and Turians and Krogans resolve their little tiffs.

It shouldn't be an option, because the very notion is ridiculous.

Well, clearly, you're in a minority here. If it shouldn't be an option, because the notion is ridiculous to, by that same logic, all the other options should not be options either. More people find those options far more ridiculous than this one. 

But, as I said, it is an option. If you are fine with the other options, again, nothing is stopping you from chosing either of those. This is an added option, one that, contrary to most proposed solutions given on this forum, actually preserves the original choices, rather than wiping those away completely.

But your issue, I think, with the entire premise of this thread, namely that the ending needs to be changed, altered, or something of that nature. And that, I cannot change. Nor are either of us, you or me or anyone, willing to change our positions on that. Which is fine. So let that be the end of this part of the discussion, and allow others to continue to toot my horn in admiration of my work, yes?

No. If it's an option, why wouldn't i take it? It will result in a more favourable outcome for my Shepard. 

It would be extremely poor writing and story telling for BioWare to include a scenario such as the one you are proposing. A mortal man with such limited experience lecturing an omniscient being, millions, maybe billions of years old, on the state of the galaxy. It's just laughable. 

The people for your idea are either stupid, or just so blinded by inconsolable rage at the original ending that they're not thinking straight. Sorry.

OK, tell me this: Why does the Catalyst even need Shepard's input at all? If he is so omniscient, as you say he is, why ask a puny human to decide the fate of the universe?

[blacqout]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

It's stupid. It's really not very well thought out to assume that Shepard, with his limited frame of reference, is anywhere near equipped to reason with and and convince the Catalyst that his millions of years of observation is incorrect. We're given enough information during the game to assume that it's not lying.

And again, no. Stopping the reapers isn't a means to an end. It's the end. Saving various galactic civilizations from themselves was a means to this end... you might remember the missions helping the Geth and Quarians and Turians and Krogans resolve their little tiffs.

It shouldn't be an option, because the very notion is ridiculous.

Well, clearly, you're in a minority here. If it shouldn't be an option, because the notion is ridiculous to, by that same logic, all the other options should not be options either. More people find those options far more ridiculous than this one. 

But, as I said, it is an option. If you are fine with the other options, again, nothing is stopping you from chosing either of those. This is an added option, one that, contrary to most proposed solutions given on this forum, actually preserves the original choices, rather than wiping those away completely.

But your issue, I think, with the entire premise of this thread, namely that the ending needs to be changed, altered, or something of that nature. And that, I cannot change. Nor are either of us, you or me or anyone, willing to change our positions on that. Which is fine. So let that be the end of this part of the discussion, and allow others to continue to toot my horn in admiration of my work, yes?

No. If it's an option, why wouldn't i take it? It will result in a more favourable outcome for my Shepard. 

It would be extremely poor writing and story telling for BioWare to include a scenario such as the one you are proposing. A mortal man with such limited experience lecturing an omniscient being, millions, maybe billions of years old, on the state of the galaxy. It's just laughable. 

The people for your idea are either stupid, or just so blinded by inconsolable rage at the original ending that they're not thinking straight. Sorry.

OK, tell me this: Why does the Catalyst even need Shepard's input at all? If he is so omniscient, as you say he is, why ask a puny human to decide the fate of the universe?

Because it can't work the controls. Being all knowing isn't the same as being all powerful.

[blacqout]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

blacqout wrote...

It's stupid. It's really not very well thought out to assume that Shepard, with his limited frame of reference, is anywhere near equipped to reason with and and convince the Catalyst that his millions of years of observation is incorrect. We're given enough information during the game to assume that it's not lying.

And again, no. Stopping the reapers isn't a means to an end. It's the end. Saving various galactic civilizations from themselves was a means to this end... you might remember the missions helping the Geth and Quarians and Turians and Krogans resolve their little tiffs.

It shouldn't be an option, because the very notion is ridiculous.

And the Catalyst being unable to continue what it has been for who knows how long just because a half-dead organic reached it's doorstep is more realistic?

That's right.

The Catalsyt states that his "solution" is no longer tenable. Reason being that organics have gotten wise to it. We're explicitly told that each cycle improves upon the crucible. That this incarnation of the device got orgnaics to the doorstep, pretty much means that the jig is up. 

A new method needed to be put in place.

Modifié par blacqout, 20 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

It's stupid. It's really not very well thought out to assume that Shepard, with his limited frame of reference, is anywhere near equipped to reason with and and convince the Catalyst that his millions of years of observation is incorrect. We're given enough information during the game to assume that it's not lying.

And again, no. Stopping the reapers isn't a means to an end. It's the end. Saving various galactic civilizations from themselves was a means to this end... you might remember the missions helping the Geth and Quarians and Turians and Krogans resolve their little tiffs.

It shouldn't be an option, because the very notion is ridiculous.

Well, clearly, you're in a minority here. If it shouldn't be an option, because the notion is ridiculous to, by that same logic, all the other options should not be options either. More people find those options far more ridiculous than this one. 

But, as I said, it is an option. If you are fine with the other options, again, nothing is stopping you from chosing either of those. This is an added option, one that, contrary to most proposed solutions given on this forum, actually preserves the original choices, rather than wiping those away completely.

But your issue, I think, with the entire premise of this thread, namely that the ending needs to be changed, altered, or something of that nature. And that, I cannot change. Nor are either of us, you or me or anyone, willing to change our positions on that. Which is fine. So let that be the end of this part of the discussion, and allow others to continue to toot my horn in admiration of my work, yes?

No. If it's an option, why wouldn't i take it? It will result in a more favourable outcome for my Shepard. 

It would be extremely poor writing and story telling for BioWare to include a scenario such as the one you are proposing. A mortal man with such limited experience lecturing an omniscient being, millions, maybe billions of years old, on the state of the galaxy. It's just laughable. 

The people for your idea are either stupid, or just so blinded by inconsolable rage at the original ending that they're not thinking straight. Sorry.

OK, tell me this: Why does the Catalyst even need Shepard's input at all? If he is so omniscient, as you say he is, why ask a puny human to decide the fate of the universe?

Because it can't work the controls. Being all knowing isn't the same as being all powerful.

Hahahahahaha!!!

OK, thank you. This entire dicussion was worth it for just that.

But, really, it's not an answer at all: he gives you three options. If he is allknowing, he would have let you know of only one of the options, not all three. So, again: why does the Catalyst need Shepard's input?

[TaradosGon]

The guy has been "Catalyzing" the extinction of organic sentient life for countless cycles, I would sincerely hope that he holds strong to the conviction that organics and synthetics cannot coexist, regardless of whether he is ultimately right or wrong. For him to just give up because Shepard refuses to choose is just soooo anti-climactic IMO. You encounter the Reapers who are represented as being these condescending, unknowable monstrosities and when you encounter their master you find out that he gives in to simple words that he's wrong from one organic, the likes of which he has squashed out of existence millions of times?

[Flubberlub]

If this God child does already control the reapers, can't he just say "fine they won't destroy you... They'll be good from now on"?

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Remember this? Pretty much the same thing. Aliens so powerful, they stand above the rest as Gods. Yet, here they are, listening to a puny earthling. So, it's been done before, to great effect, as many people, fans and critics alike, will attest to.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Flubberlub wrote...

If this God child does already control the reapers, can't he just say "fine they won't destroy you... They'll be good from now on"?

No. First of all, that would make this identical to the Control ending. Second of all: if they do not leave, the battle will continue, because the other races in your alliance won't just accept them being suddenly good. Third: that would really sound ridiculous coming out of the mouth of the Star Child, however you would formulate it.

[blacqout]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

It's stupid. It's really not very well thought out to assume that Shepard, with his limited frame of reference, is anywhere near equipped to reason with and and convince the Catalyst that his millions of years of observation is incorrect. We're given enough information during the game to assume that it's not lying.

And again, no. Stopping the reapers isn't a means to an end. It's the end. Saving various galactic civilizations from themselves was a means to this end... you might remember the missions helping the Geth and Quarians and Turians and Krogans resolve their little tiffs.

It shouldn't be an option, because the very notion is ridiculous.

Well, clearly, you're in a minority here. If it shouldn't be an option, because the notion is ridiculous to, by that same logic, all the other options should not be options either. More people find those options far more ridiculous than this one. 

But, as I said, it is an option. If you are fine with the other options, again, nothing is stopping you from chosing either of those. This is an added option, one that, contrary to most proposed solutions given on this forum, actually preserves the original choices, rather than wiping those away completely.

But your issue, I think, with the entire premise of this thread, namely that the ending needs to be changed, altered, or something of that nature. And that, I cannot change. Nor are either of us, you or me or anyone, willing to change our positions on that. Which is fine. So let that be the end of this part of the discussion, and allow others to continue to toot my horn in admiration of my work, yes?

No. If it's an option, why wouldn't i take it? It will result in a more favourable outcome for my Shepard. 

It would be extremely poor writing and story telling for BioWare to include a scenario such as the one you are proposing. A mortal man with such limited experience lecturing an omniscient being, millions, maybe billions of years old, on the state of the galaxy. It's just laughable. 

The people for your idea are either stupid, or just so blinded by inconsolable rage at the original ending that they're not thinking straight. Sorry.

OK, tell me this: Why does the Catalyst even need Shepard's input at all? If he is so omniscient, as you say he is, why ask a puny human to decide the fate of the universe?

Because it can't work the controls. Being all knowing isn't the same as being all powerful.

Hahahahahaha!!!

OK, thank you. This entire dicussion was worth it for just that.

But, really, it's not an answer at all: he gives you three options. If he is allknowing, he would have let you know of only one of the options, not all three. So, again: why does the Catalyst need Shepard's input?

I disagree. Giving a choice will always go down better than giving an order.

But now that you mention it, perhaps omniscient isn't the best way to describe the Catalyst. Certainly, it was somehow able to choose a form it knew had been on Shepard's mind, and i see no reason to not believe that it wasn't privy to the major goings on of the previous cycles. I mean, it was stored in the hub of galactic society. Lets just say that it has a level of knowledge and frame of historical reference so far in advance of ours as to be indestinguishable from omniscience.

The solution to "chaos" that it was tasked with overseeing proved to be unsustainable after millions of years. It had to find another way, and Shepard was there. The Catalyst knows, from having observed countless cycles, that everything it says is true and no temporary alliance between the Geth and Quarians will sway him, hence the more restrictive options presented.

[Baa Baa]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...



Remember this? Pretty much the same thing. Aliens so powerful, they stand above the rest as Gods. Yet, here they are, listening to a puny earthling. So, it's been done before, to great effect, as many people, fans and critics alike, will attest to.

Damn right, would have loved to see Shepard say this

[Epique Phael767]

i want to hit the starchild's off-switch. put that in there somewhere.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

blacqout wrote...

I disagree. Giving a choice will always go down better than giving an order.

But now that you mention it, perhaps omniscient isn't the best way to describe the Catalyst. Certainly, it was somehow able to choose a form it knew had been on Shepard's mind, and i see no reason to not believe that it wasn't privy to the major goings on of the previous cycles. I mean, it was stored in the hub of galactic society. Lets just say that it has a level of knowledge and frame of historical reference so far in advance of ours as to be indestinguishable from omniscience.

The solution to "chaos" that it was tasked with overseeing proved to be unsustainable after millions of years. It had to find another way, and Shepard was there. The Catalyst knows, from having observed countless cycles, that everything it says is true and no temporary alliance between the Geth and Quarians will sway him, hence the more restrictive options presented.

OK, it's true that the Catalyst has observed countless of cycles. So, I will accept that premise.

(EDIT BTW: The following is not something Shepard would know, but it's certainly not unreasonable that the Star Child would be aware of it)

Have you ever heard of the induction problem?  In case you haven't, let me explain: The Induction problem states that from observable data, one can never induce with 100% accuracy a predicting theory to explain said data. In laymens terms: no matter how often you observe something happening, you cannot be certain that the next time, it will happen again.

I'll illustrate with an example: I give you a set of numerical figures

1,2,3,4,5,6.

What is the next value?

Logically, you would say '7'. Why? You suppose the underlying mathematical formula that generates these numbers, the formula I am thinking of, gives for every number the previous one, + 1.

Now, what if I told you the next number is 128? See, I am thinking of another formula, one that gives for the first 6 numerical values 1,2,3,4,5,6, but for the 7th one, 128.

From the observable data, you could never have guessed that. Well, you could have, but Occam's Razor would tell you that it is more likely that 7 would be the next value, and not 128. But Occam's Razor states what is more LIKELY, not what is true.

Similarly, the Star Child has observed countless cycles in which Organics and Synthetics fight. But, there are two problems with that.

First of all: There has never been a synthetic race that won. If so, there would not have been a Catalyst in the first place.
Second: Every time organics and synthetics fight, the fight has never ben followed through to the ultimate conclusion of peace, because every time, the Reapers intervered. There has never been peace between organics and Synthetics, because by virtue of the Reaper existence, they never had the opportunty to.

So, observable data suggest that it is likely that synthetics and organics will always fight, but not certain. The Catalyst can never be certain of that. (Heck, this is a problem that philosophers have had for centuries, and, as far as we know, and we are EXPERTS on this, there is no solution for this problem) So it knows, that there is a chance that synthetics and organics can live in peace. The reason they haven't, is because they never had the opportunity, in large part due to its very existence. (An existence that is already in doubt which I explained before. But even if you do not subscribe to that belief, this argumentation still holds.)

So, when Shepard argues that the Reapers should leave, it is considering the possibility of letting everything play out without its interference. If, ultimately, the geth turn, and attack the organics, or if a new synthetic race comes by and wipes all (galactic civilized) organics (and Geth) out, it will at least have more data, which will give his theory that organcs and Synthetics cannot live alongside one another, more credit. Were this to be the case, it can always come in and get rid of the synthetic race.

In other words: It is performing an emperical experiment with galactic society, to find out whether the next number is 7, or 128.

Modifié par Samuel_Valkyrie, 20 juin 2012 - 09:24 .

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

*Bump* for still being relevant.

[Ryzaki]

Baa Baa wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...



Remember this? Pretty much the same thing. Aliens so powerful, they stand above the rest as Gods. Yet, here they are, listening to a puny earthling. So, it's been done before, to great effect, as many people, fans and critics alike, will attest to.

Damn right, would have loved to see Shepard say this

Same that would've been awesome.

[Ice Eyes]

Well check out my sig. my ending is basically the idea of the OP

[PanzerGr3nadier]

I salute you, OP

This with "an end once and for all"/"Suicide mission" rolling in background and many manly tears would have been shed.

[Necrotron]

How I wish they would have implemented something along these lines.

*sigh*

[SHARXTREME]

Yes to NO!. I'm all for different options. And even "No!" in that situation would be awesome way out. It would show that Shepard is not some puppet born to comply with catalyst's "solutions" and choose the color..

[Argetfalcon]

much better than what we got

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

While I am actually relatively content (though not, what you would say, 'happy') with the EC, I still have hope for an ending like this. A lot of voices here feel that coming DLC should implement the ending. I'm hoping that coming DLC will allow Shepard more information on the Reapers, and with that, actual ammunition in the shape of arguments to use against the Catalyst. Collect all the DLC, collect all the relevant data, and you have enough to succesfully change 'Refuse' into a succes.

[Xilizhra]

It would be rather less terrible than Refusal.

[jbadm04]

Skypezee wrote...

Works for me.
Heck, that's the kind of speech I would have expected out of Shepard as it fits his/her character.

Yeah, I kind of expected something like the OT in the EC...

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Ryzaki wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...



Remember this? Pretty much the same thing. Aliens so powerful, they stand above the rest as Gods. Yet, here they are, listening to a puny earthling. So, it's been done before, to great effect, as many people, fans and critics alike, will attest to.

Damn right, would have loved to see Shepard say this

Same that would've been awesome.

A kind of Doctor Who/Picard speech is always fitting for a SF story. If you don't have a speech where you argue the worth of a race against an antagonistic near-omnipotent being, you're doing something wrong, IMO.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

*bump*

[masster blaster]

Guys and ladys I am Masster blaster and I am trying to get the literalyst and ITers to work together as one. And this is not just for them it's for all of us. If we combin our theorys then there will be no more thread war and we can spcualte to even high levels than we are all doing. So please stop by my poll and vote. I know it's weird but give it a chance please.