173 réponses à ce sujet

[Crill]

There is no way to explain how synthesis works. It is above our understanding and something which we cannot comprehend. Clarke's third law states, 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistguishable from magic'. Therefore you cannot argue that Synthesis is the worst ending because it doesn't make sense. It shouldn't make sense.

As to people saying synthesis is slavery. With destruction you are destroying two entire races, the geth and the reapers.

I do not believe the Reapers are evil. Do humans not harvest livestock? Reapers harvest to aid organics where as we harvest to have some steak with our chips. Thus it is a matter of perespective and a deep philosophical debate which I do not think we will be able to answer until we create our own artificial intelligence.

[Umbrellamage]

Unfortunately synthesis won't result in peace because it's flawed logically.

The kid switches between an argument of synthetic/organic and creator/created. Synthetic/organic is a red herring, creator/created is the true argument. Chaos will always arise through the created rebelling against their creators. The synthesized are entirely able to create new synthetics out of synthetic materials because only life at the time of synthesis is affected. Even if we go so far as to say that the synthesized can synthesize synthetic creations by transferring their DNA in some capacity, the creator/created dynamic still exists and is unbroken.

So unfortunately the synthesis ending is just as flawed as the kid's reasoning for using the reapers.

[plaguecaller]

I think that in the synthesis ending Sheppard probably lives on in the data stream somewhere.

I believe the kid because he is willing to give control of the Reapers to Sheppard. He states Sheppard is different than TIM because Sheppard is not indoctrinated. That aspect would allow him to control the Reapers and not allow the Reapers to control him..

Believe the kid because, ... as a being he's been at it for a couple of hundred thousand years and he himself says that the old order is not a solution.

The game works on hope even with dark choices and the kid does give some hope presenting synthesis.

The rest is same old same old in the conflict cycle.

Choices we are given are...

Control reapers = just delaying the problem.

Killing Reapers and Synthetics = resetting the galactic board for the cycle to begin again.

Synthesis = evolution and peace.

Resistance to change is futile- just look at what the Universe has been doing over and over again for 50,000 year cycles.

Destroying reapers just resets the cycle back to before the reapers it does not get rid of them the cycle will go on and another kid type and the reapers will develop again.

Controling reapers only hits the pause button for a bit. It will still play out the same way as destroy.

Modifié par plaguecaller, 12 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[dkear1]

Crill wrote...

There is no way to explain how synthesis works. It is above our understanding and something which we cannot comprehend. Clarke's third law states, 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistguishable from magic'. Therefore you cannot argue that Synthesis is the worst ending because it doesn't make sense. It shouldn't make sense.

As to people saying synthesis is slavery. With destruction you are destroying two entire races, the geth and the reapers.

I do not believe the Reapers are evil. Do humans not harvest livestock? Reapers harvest to aid organics where as we harvest to have some steak with our chips. Thus it is a matter of perespective and a deep philosophical debate which I do not think we will be able to answer until we create our own artificial intelligence.

This analogy falls apart because cows are not sentient beings any more than a misquito or a roach. 

Synthesis is slavery and dictatorship and as such it is wrong.  No choice is offered.  Bringing up the destroy option as an excuse is a chewbacca defense.  We can argue about the destroy option in another thread.

As to excusing the introduction of space magic........really....99% of the way through the series the game throws up this inexplanible green-wave-magic-fairie-pixie-dust that instantaneously and painlessly alters all and you don't see a problem with this?  No codex entry, just BAM here it is...deal with it?  This is a sign of horrible writing and perhaps even desperation as they must have run out of time to compose something that made any sense.

Modifié par dkear1, 12 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[Red Templar]

Crill wrote...

There is no way to explain how synthesis works. It is above our understanding and something which we cannot comprehend. Clarke's third law states, 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistguishable from magic'. Therefore you cannot argue that Synthesis is the worst ending because it doesn't make sense. It shouldn't make sense.

Suspension of disbelief can only be pushed so far. Narrative satisfaction is not wholely dependent on plausibility, but plausibility is beyond a doubt a contributary factor. The synthesis ending isn't the worst ending because it is the least plausible, but the fact that it is the least plausible contributes to it being the worst ending.

As to people saying synthesis is slavery. With destruction you are destroying two entire races, the geth and the reapers.

Fair enough, it isn't slavery. It subverts the free will, personal agency, physical integrity ,and cultural destiny of every being in the galaxy in an act of mass genetic rape that no one asked for. That isn't slavery, but it certainly isn't respect for choice, agency, and diversity.

I do not believe the Reapers are evil. Do humans not harvest livestock? Reapers harvest to aid organics where as we harvest to have some steak with our chips. Thus it is a matter of perespective and a deep philosophical debate which I do not think we will be able to answer until we create our own artificial intelligence.

Well, not really. Philosophically, sure the question remains open. But card carrying philsophers can't agree on anything. By the overwhelmly prevalent social/legal/cultural values of our current civilization, through which most of us are going to interpret the narrative, the dividing line here is "sentience". Reapers aren't harvesting non-sentient cows for their own survival, they are harvesting sentients in an act of forced utilitarian control brought about through repeated genocide. There's a lot of philsophopical ground to cover there, of which "we're the reapers to cows" is the least.

Modifié par Red Templar, 12 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[plaguecaller]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I agree with the synthesis ending - to me EDI and Legion (and the other Geth) proved that they had achieved personhood and that we could co-exist. Synthesis was just taking that final step to true unity, not just co-existence, by changing the building blocks from which all life is made. Outwardly, it would seem that we're still basically the same and that we maintain our individuality, so I don't really see a downside to it.

 I see it as bringing the Yin of organic life and the Yang of sythetic life together to create a complete picture. I don't see it as a loss of personal will.  Loss of will would be the Reaper indoctrination ending.  The kid did not talk abvout indoctronation in the sythesis option.

Kid states "synthesis is the final evolution of life but we need each other to achive it," and he also says there will be peace.

Modifié par plaguecaller, 12 mars 2012 - 11:50 .

[Red Templar]

plaguecaller wrote...
 I see it as bringing the Yin of organic life and the Yang of sythetic life together to create a complete picture. I don't see it as a loss of personal will.  Loss of will would be the Reaper indoctrination ending.  The kid did not talk abvout indoctronation in the sythesis option.

The point isn't that personal free will will dissapear and that everyone will become husks. The point is that it is forcing a massive physical/cultural change on a galaxy of beings who didn't chose this option.

The krogan never wanted to cyborgs. Now you force them. Can you imagine how drastically this will change their cultural destiny? This would be a tremendous change of course for an entire sentient culture with its own values, robbing every krogan of what they would have chosen to make themselves in favour of the reality you chose to force on them.

The geth never wanted to be organic. Their minds reside in virtual space and their bodies are just hardware platforms. Now you force an attachment to partially organic physical bodies on them, robbing them of the sentient synthetic society they may have built in favour of the cyborg homogenization that you chose to force on the galaxy.

And so on and so on for every life form that exists.

Synthesis isn't evolution. It is the final, utter defeat of evolution as the result of  foreign manipulation of all life.

And the idea that this will create peace and solve the creator-created war of dissonant purpose is riddled with holes. If creatures of the same species can have different opinions and kill each other over them, so can cyborgs. And if purposeless human creates and is betrayed by a synthetic, a cyborg can just as easily create and be betrayed by its own synthetic creations.

Modifié par Red Templar, 12 mars 2012 - 11:58 .

[plaguecaller]

19 minutes in -sythesis option.


In the end they evolve. Kid states its evolution. You are just scared and resistant to change. Joker gets to hit on EDI end Liara even looks happy.

It's a fight bertween two halves, the organic half and the synthetic half. Both of which are just sides on the same coin called intelligent life.

Artificial intelligence Vs. Organic intelligence.

Modifié par plaguecaller, 13 mars 2012 - 12:02 .

[Detha]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Detha wrote...

The other endings don't use this voice over.

Yes they do, so everything else you wrote doesn't mean anything.

Everything else I said does mean a lot, but that was at least 1/4 of my reasoning. 

[LotharanAeron]

plaguecaller wrote...



19 minutes in -sythesis option.


In the end they evolve. Kid states its evolution. You are just scared and resistant to change. Joker gets to hit on EDI end Liara even looks happy.

It's a fight bertween two halves, the organic half and the synthetic half. Both of which are just sides on the same coin called intelligent life.

Artificial intelligence Vs. Organic intelligence.

The crew coming out of the Normandy looks happy no matter which ending you follow. 

And do you really believe everything you are told?  In game or out?  Good writing often involves characters deceiving each other for their own ends.  Just becuase we are told it is good does not mean it really is.  We don't even know if jumping into the beam will cause this "evolution" to happen.  For all we know it could turn everyone into Skittles.

There are major moral problems with Synthesis, nevermind all of the issues revolving around the boy.  If we were given something besides his word to go on, then this wouldn't be as big of an issue.  If some random person came up to you and promised you peace on Earth will happen if you commit suicide, would you really do it?

[turian_rage]

It's also the only way destroying the relays makes sense. I defended the endings of Mass Effect 3 because playing it with the synthesis made the most sense. The amount of energy required to alter the DNA structure of every living being in the galaxy would sure enough destroy those things. It was a long-term inconvenience with a long-term payoff. The paragon and renegade options ended with the relays being destroyed too, which was just illogical. Why? Wasn't sacrificing the geth or your friendships enough? Why were the relays always being destroyed no matter what? I'm hoping some additional content changes or expands upon these endings. :c

[Red Templar]

plaguecaller wrote...



19 minutes in -sythesis option.


In the end they evolve. Kid states its evolution. You are just scared and resistant to change. Joker gets to hit on EDI end Liara even looks happy.

It's a fight bertween two halves, the organic half and the synthetic half. Both of which are just sides on the same coin called intelligent life.

Artificial intelligence Vs. Organic intelligence.

Nothing you've said counters me.

The reaper god child says it is evolution. Of course it thinks that. It wants the galaxy to conform to the perfection it created. That doesn't mean it is right. Evolution is something that an organism goes through personally, whether this is normal evolution or self-controlled artificial evolution. If you force a change on another organism through purely your own agency, rather than provoking that organism to change by itself, then you are interefering with its evolution and imposing your personal paradigm on it. That is not evolution.

I'm scared of change? No, that doesn't work because... y'know... I'm not living in the universe and not at risk of being turned into a cyborg. Doesn't change the fact that theoretically forcing all life to turn into cyborg life against its will is morally reprehensible on several levels and does not represent any true evolution.

And the "problem" that the reapers wanted to solve wasn't just phrased as "organics versus synthetics", it was phrased as "created versus creators". It is entirely possible for a synthetic to create an organic, via cloning, genetic manipulation and the like. And it is entirely possible for a cyborg to pick up inert minerals and make new synthetics out of those. The cyborgs could just as easily create and be destroyed by Geth 2.0 as organics could. And we know from real life that people being the same doesn't stop them from killing each other. Making everyone into a cyborg solves nothing except for allowing Joker and EDI to get it on and not be so creepy.

Modifié par Red Templar, 13 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[Yuqi]

TheDove wrote...

I thought it was by far the -worst- option, and the least believable as well. I would never choose that option.

^This

[goofyomnivore]

How does Synthesis fix the main problem the Catalyst has? We can still make synthetics later down the road in the synthesis ending, and risk getting wiped out.

[Detha]

I really don't understand how jumping into the beam of the crucible or blowing up a certain area of the crucible cause those endings. Grabbing the electricity as you send out a gigantic wave of control kind of does.

Just further criticism.

Modifié par Detha, 13 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[keekee53]

savaged49 wrote...

I believe control is the best outcome for one reason in particular...It's the only one in which the citadel is not destroyed.

Think about it the destroyed citadel has a chance of heck destroying earth considering its orbiting, not to mention the fact you save any potential citadel survivors at the same time. Also being that the citadel is a mass relay it could be potentially used to create new relays much quicker if not be used itself to send all the fleets home.

And i for one believe Shepard can be trusted as the reapers new master, if anything he has merged with the catalyst if not become the catalyst himself. Who knows maybe he will destroy the reapers or use them to replace all the destroyed relays.

Also i cant see shepard sacraficing the geth and edi for the destroy ending.

why not?  Shepard sacraficed either Kaidan or Ashley on Virmire...Mordin....anyone else who died on the suicide mission....I don't think Shep would have any problems with the destroy ending.  It is the proper ending or we should have just stopped at Mass Effect 1 and told Saren he was right. 

The control ending is a joke to me because no one has been able to control the reapers without getting indoctrinated....they couldn't even study an aritifact without getting indoctrinated.

I wish there was an ending where everyone dies.  I think I would have picked that option.  The end of this game is so terrible all of the characters should just die.

[815Sox]

815Sox wrote... Also, I do agree that this may be the happy
ending. Remember, the energy that was sent out was the essence of
Shepard. Shepard was the only person able to unite the galaxy. My
Shepard never compromised his beliefs. His only mission in life was to
foster peace and justice while protecting the unprotected. He sought and
eventually did unite the galaxy under this mission. Synthesis did not
strip free will.. The embrace of EDI and Joker was very symbolic. It is
the only ending where Joker did not look distraut. It did imply
something bad. Also, the uniting of the Geth and Quarians was very
symbolic. Talk answering Legion that the Geths question that they did
have a soul was a major turning point for both sides. TIM was the
ultimate corruption of Shepard. He was a xenophobic POS that ultimately
only sought for self gain. He used the the banner of specisim to hide
this. Very Hitleresq. Much of ME was about acceptance and coming
together. TIM was the antithesis of this.

1. Your Shepard believed that splicing the DNA of synthetics and organics together without their consent was the way to unite the galaxy, instead of cooperation, diversity, tolerance, economic symbiosis?

2. Synthesis did not "strip" free will but the act of synthesis disregards it completely. Also, it's completely BS, from a non-philosophical viewpoint, that Joker and EDI are shown smiling and enjoying the view at all. They have no clue if the Reapers or Alliance won, they have no clue how many of their friends are dead or alive, they have no clue if Earth is destroyed or not, etc etc etc. It's supposed to be symbolic of a new civilization starting, but in this case symbolism killed any type of emotional realism and character consistency.

3. Your TIM part seems to be a different point, but I'll take this from it: Coming together and becoming one are completely different things. Even Shinji Ikari at the end of Eva rejects Instrumentality because he would rather have the diversity of his friends and family around him, even if it hurts him at times. There you have it, guys, Shinji Ikari has bigger nuggets than Shepard!

1. No, my Shepard created the next step in our evolution. It wasn't splicing, it was creating new life. People keep assuming that the Cataylist is the Reapers. It is not the Reapers. Again, Joker looked different, but not like a husk. My Shepard was given three choices, he did not just all of a sudden decide to do this.

2. Again, they are not turned into husks, nor are they turned into reapers or put in there control. They were not synthesized with the Reapers, a new DNA was created. This was the next step in our evolution. The game gave two great examples of how synthetic life is an actual living thing. It can be bad (The Reapers, though ultimately they had no free will) or good (EDI, The Geth).

3. I have no idea who Shinji Ikari is. I think it might be from an Anime, which I do not watch or like. I think EVA might stand for Evangelion, which I had a friend who was all into. Why are you comparing Mass Effect to an Anime? There is no reason to do this , the lore is different and the writers are different.
If this really is a hallucination and Shepard is alive then cool. But ultimately, I think it is just well thought out denial. I have read the arguements and they are compelling but also people can convince themselves of things if they want too.

EDIT: I have no idea how my reply got so messed up with different code. All I did was hit the quote button. Anyways, I cleaned it up the best I could.

Modifié par 815Sox, 13 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[Detha]

strive wrote...

How does Synthesis fix the main problem the Catalyst has? We can still make synthetics later down the road in the synthesis ending, and risk getting wiped out.

Because everything is synthorganic.  Everything in the galaxy. 

This is the only one that comes closest to the idea that life wouldn't create synthetics that would kill them.  The other endings leave this entirely open, and the destruction ending suggests that it will happen.

Modifié par Detha, 13 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[goofyomnivore]

Not everything. The Normandy isn't alive nor is your iPhone in the future. Synthesis ending can still lead to more advanced AI and VI taking over the world.

Modifié par strive, 13 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[plaguecaller]

Red Templar wrote...

plaguecaller wrote...



19 minutes in -sythesis option.


In the end they evolve. Kid states its evolution. You are just scared and resistant to change. Joker gets to hit on EDI end Liara even looks happy.

It's a fight bertween two halves, the organic half and the synthetic half. Both of which are just sides on the same coin called intelligent life.

Artificial intelligence Vs. Organic intelligence.

Nothing you've said counters me.

The reaper god child says it is evolution. Of course it thinks that. It wants the galaxy to conform to the perfection it created. That doesn't mean it is right. Evolution is something that an organism goes through personally, whether this is normal evolution or self-controlled artificial evolution. If you force a change on another organism through purely your own agency, rather than provoking that organism to change by itself, then you are interefering with its evolution and imposing your personal paradigm on it. That is not evolution.

I'm scared of change? No, that doesn't work because... y'know... I'm not living in the universe and not at risk of being turned into a cyborg. Doesn't change the fact that theoretically forcing all life to turn into cyborg life against its will is morally reprehensible on several levels and does not represent any true evolution.

And the "problem" that the reapers wanted to solve wasn't phrased as "organics versus synthetics", it was phrased as "created versus creators". It is entirely possible for a synthetic to create an organic, via cloning, genetic manipulation and the like. And it is entirely possible for a cyborg to pick up inert minerals and make new synthetics out of those. The cyborgs could just as easily create and be destroyed by Geth 2.0 as organics could. And we know from real life that people being the same doesn't stop them from killing each other. Making everyone into a cyborg solves nothing except for allowing Joker and EDI to get it on and not be so creepy.

So in other words you are going to continue the cycle over and over again.

What was that definition of madness again something like  ... repeating the same thing over and over hoping to achieve a diferent outcome when you know it will be the same.

This path in ME3 has been gone over for hundreds of thousands of years and even used new species evolution each cycle to only to end up in the same place. - no solution to the problem just amaniging of the same issue.

The only path out of same old same old cycle was sythesis.

[plaguecaller]

strive wrote...

Not everything. The Normandy isn't alive nor is your iPhone in the future.

{sigh} I love my iPhone oh well.

[dkear1]

plaguecaller wrote...



19 minutes in -sythesis option.


In the end they evolve. Kid states its evolution. You are just scared and resistant to change. Joker gets to hit on EDI end Liara even looks happy.

It's a fight bertween two halves, the organic half and the synthetic half. Both of which are just sides on the same coin called intelligent life.

Artificial intelligence Vs. Organic intelligence.

Fine, you have your opinon.  However your opinon should not be mandated to all.  Get it????  This is what you are asking everyone to do...they get no choice on this issue.  What if there are complications, what testing has been done to make sure this actually does WORK??? 

The catalyst is asking for trust and offering no proof.   I don't buy that.  Proove that we are better off.  Prove that this has no downside.  Prove that eveyone wants or will accept this.

[Detha]

strive wrote...

Not everything. The Normandy isn't alive nor is your iPhone in the future.

I own a droid.

[Detha]

strive wrote...

Synthesis ending can still lead to more advanced AI and VI taking over the world.

But that is because it is lazy writing.  By the logic of the crucible, it wouldn't happen.

[815Sox]

strive wrote...

Not everything. The Normandy isn't alive nor is your iPhone in the future. Synthesis ending can still lead to more advanced AI and VI taking over the world.

The thing that was the core of Normandy is alive though.

Also, what if this merge gave the organics the awareness that the geth have? How do we not know that organics are now connected to each other in a level that has now become a universal awareness. Wouldn't any created AI become connected into this as soon as it was self-aware.

The fact that we are having this disscussion shows (to me at least) that the ending is not this monstrosity that some are making it out to be. Is it perfect? No. But if you go in expecting perfect you are gong to be upset every time.