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[Drider-man]

Right, posting this in the right forum this time:

So, is he just crazy paranoid or is there something more sinister at work?
I realise he's apparantly just bonkers according to the game, but there
are certain indications, to me at least, that there was something VERY
wrong with him.
I recall Anora mentioning that he caused to wither
with a single touch and even though she stresses that it literally fell apart at his touch, she seems to chalk this down to poor gardening skills ../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png

Also, I think I remember something about either Loghains or Howes arldom
being in the south, close to the source of the blight, which was
mentioned by some NPC and sounded very much like a clue to an
underlying plot.
I
may have dreamt the last part though, but it
would certainly put some perspective on the madness of Loghain and his
cooperation with Howe.

Modifié par Drider-man, 27 novembre 2009 - 07:36 .

[The Angry One]

Amaranthine, Howe's Arldom, is north of Denerim.

Loghain is Teryn of Denerim, I think.

[Flamin Jesus]

The simple answer is "Since the plotline is resolved within the game, you can take it at face value".

If there had been more to this, BW would have stressed that point at least a few times during the game.

[Pennoyer]

I felt that his actions weren't really explained well at all. Arguably, he was just very anti-Orlesian. Seems out of character for him to almost ignore the coming Darkspawn threat. He did not seem overly ambitious. I just think he was obsessed with defying the Orlesians. Guess that happens when you give some random commoner some power.

[Drider-man]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The simple answer is "Since the plotline is resolved within the game, you can take it at face value".
If there had been more to this, BW would have stressed that point at least a few times during the game.

I realise that, but I still can't shake the feeling there's something off, about it all.
Like perhaps they intended some "possesion" storyline or somesuch, but abanoned it yet used some of dialogue hinting at it

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, random commoner.



A person in a position of power becoming paranoid is not that unusual.

[Flamin Jesus]

Drider-man wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The simple answer is "Since the plotline is resolved within the game, you can take it at face value".
If there had been more to this, BW would have stressed that point at least a few times during the game.

I realise that, but I still can't shake the feeling there's something off, about it all.
Like perhaps they intended some "possesion" storyline or somesuch, but abanoned it yet used some of dialogue hinting at it

Possibly. Parts of the story probably went through as many iterations and redesigns as the engine, I wouldn't think too much of it, I think they'll stick to the "sometimes people are just ****s/crazy" story as opposed to the somewhat tired "A demon did it!".

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, random commoner.

A person in a position of power becoming paranoid is not that unusual.

El Presidente feels this is a statement intended to undermine his power and you are therefore under arrest for treason.

[Drider-man]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Drider-man wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The simple answer is "Since the plotline is resolved within the game, you can take it at face value".
If there had been more to this, BW would have stressed that point at least a few times during the game.

I realise that, but I still can't shake the feeling there's something off, about it all.
Like perhaps they intended some "possesion" storyline or somesuch, but abanoned it yet used some of dialogue hinting at it

Possibly. Parts of the story probably went through as many iterations and redesigns as the engine, I wouldn't think too much of it, I think they'll stick to the "sometimes people are just ****s/crazy" story as opposed to the somewhat tired "A demon did it!".

Yeah, I was actually pleasantly surprised to find out that he was just suffering from tin-foil hat grade paranoia rather than being some secret Archdemon agent.
I did at one point suspect Rendon Howe of being the real villain, but I guess that's just a quality of the game: It kept me guessing

[Tatooine92]

I was too busy fighting darkspawn to give Loghain much thought, short of how much I wanted him to die. Ahem. I did wonder if he and Anora were in league to betray Cailan, though; she didn't seem like a very sad widow. After all, after running the country for five years, she probably enjoyed power and saw Cailan as a threat.

Or Loghain was just bat**** crazy, but that's the cheater's explanation. XD

[Herr Uhl]

I think Anora is sad, but that she is a stoic.

[Recidiva]

I think his war with Orlais made him incredibly paranoid of letting any Orlesian citizens (chevaliers assisting against the Blight or Wardens) into the country.
But that's after the first play-through thinking he was just possessed by a demon or was an Abomination himself.
I was kinda bummed he was just a paranoid dude.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 novembre 2009 - 08:44 .

[Drider-man]

Tatooine92 wrote...

I was too busy fighting darkspawn to give Loghain much thought, short of how much I wanted him to die. Ahem. I did wonder if he and Anora were in league to betray Cailan, though; she didn't seem like a very sad widow. After all, after running the country for five years, she probably enjoyed power and saw Cailan as a threat.
Or Loghain was just bat**** crazy, but that's the cheater's explanation. XD

Well, if Anora was in cahoots with Loghain for control of the throne, she got served cause I shipped her dear old dad (in the very real and legally binding sense) off to to stuff with the Wardens while I stayed around in Denerim to manage my kingdom. I'm not sure Anora would consider sharing power and definitely having to put out (although I was a very dashing rogue) as a succesful coup d'etat

[Axterix]

Drider-man wrote...

So, is he just crazy paranoid or is there something more sinister at work?
I realise he's apparantly just bonkers according to the game, but there
are certain indications, to me at least, that there was something VERY
wrong with him.

Pretty much just his paranoia, coupled with him being manipulated by Howe.  I don't Loghain is the best politician, hence why he relies on Howe for all things political.  And Howe uses that to get things through, like the assassination thing.  Howe's idea, Loghain seemed initially sort of against the idea, but Howe brought him around.  Loghain is in a rush, so he lets Howe talk him into things that aren't necessarily the best choice.

One thing worth noting though: just because Loghain is paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after him.  We don't know, we don't get any information whatsoever on what the Orlesians would have done if they'd actually gotten into the country.  It is possible he was quite right as to the threat. 

Just something to consider

[Axterix]

Tatooine92 wrote...

I was too busy fighting darkspawn to give Loghain much thought, short of how much I wanted him to die. Ahem. I did wonder if he and Anora were in league to betray Cailan, though; she didn't seem like a very sad widow. After all, after running the country for five years, she probably enjoyed power and saw Cailan as a threat.

She isn't, else she wouldn't have asking her dad if he was responsible for Cailan's death, then stormed off when he didn't answer.  That marks the point when she begins to work against him, I believe.

[Servant of Nature]

Loghain is the Teryn of Gwaren, on the south east coast of Ferelden... Loghain is extremely paranoid, part of it I believe is him falling apart due to Maric's death, even though it was five years prior to this, Maric would have kept him in line, even if he did invite some Orlesian support troops. Not that it excuses what he did at all, but he was scarred very badly by the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, and lost much, like most Fereldans did... he saw Maric's own son inviting those same people into his -- Maric's -- country, and lost it.



To be fair, Cailan was being an idiot, jeopardizing himself and thusly the morale and stability of his country and his men... of course, IIRC, Maric often went into the front lines himself, though it wasn't for the glory of battle. The game doesn't really do justice to Loghain's character, although he's always been more on the... unstable side, he had a very keen mind. I don't think he realized how much he depended on Maric until he was gone, and I can't imagine losing Rowan as well helped much.



Loghain is a damaged man, he saw Orlais as the threat, and got rid of them in one fell swoop. I have considered that perhaps while battling through the Tower of Ishaal, we likely missed the signal to light the beacon... this could easily be seen by a paranoid man as a delaying tactic to allow the darkspawn to gain a foothold, thus needing the Orlesian support to take them out. He sees the Wardens as an Orlesian force, and events in the Calling inforced his beliefs.



As I said, it doesn't excuse anything, but his paranoia is something I don't think anyone can truly understand, he was that far gone, I question if even Maric could have kept him under control.

[Amagoi]

Loghain is the Teryn of Gwaren, which is a fishing port to the southeast corner of Ferelden. I don't think the Blight ever went over there, it mostly came out of the Korcari and went north from there. That might come into play in why he didn't take the Blight itself seriously.

[Xiphias]

Evil path spoilers in this post.



What felt odd to me was why I was opposing him in the first place. When the main character can put a murderer on the throne of orzammar, wipe out a tribe of dalish elves, condemn the entire circle of magi to death and blaspheme against the maker himself by destroying Andraste's ashes it seems odd that you're opposing Loghain just because he's evacuating the elves by selling them into slavery and getting his political enemies out of the way.

[Axterix]

Xiphias wrote...

Evil path spoilers in this post.

What felt odd to me was why I was opposing him in the first place. When the main character can put a murderer on the throne of orzammar, wipe out a tribe of dalish elves, condemn the entire circle of magi to death and blaspheme against the maker himself by destroying Andraste's ashes it seems odd that you're opposing Loghain just because he's evacuating the elves by selling them into slavery and getting his political enemies out of the way.

Yeah, if it wasn't for the fact that he was using Wardens as a scapegoat for why the King died, I could see siding with him.

Unfortunately, when someone is actively involved in trying to discredit and kill you, plus doesn't see the need for you (false blight and why a warden is needed to kill an archdemon is kept secret), it makes it hard to have a sit down conversation with him to work it all out.

You have to build up the rebellion just to get a chance to talk to him.  And he won't really listen until after you strip him of power.

[Drider-man]

Xiphias wrote...

Evil path spoilers in this post.

What felt odd to me was why I was opposing him in the first place. When the main character can put a murderer on the throne of orzammar, wipe out a tribe of dalish elves, condemn the entire circle of magi to death and blaspheme against the maker himself by destroying Andraste's ashes it seems odd that you're opposing Loghain just because he's evacuating the elves by selling them into slavery and getting his political enemies out of the way.

Plainly you oppose him because he's not cutting you in on the action. Besides, you're a dwarven-Orleasian Grey Warden, Blood magic using spy and YOU'RE OUT TO GET HIM LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, he knows cause the voices told him so when he wasn't wearing his tin-foil hat.

I somehow doubt Loghain would work with his technical nemesis (technical since it's nothing personal, for Loghain at least), especially if said nemesis was an evil blighter. Loghain is both practical and I am sure he sees himself as good. Why should he work with an unholy defiler and mass-murderer, who he surely cannot trust?

[Akka le Vil]

Drider-man wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The simple answer is "Since the plotline is resolved within the game, you can take it at face value".
If there had been more to this, BW would have stressed that point at least a few times during the game.

I realise that, but I still can't shake the feeling there's something off, about it all.

Yes, but honestly, Ockham's Razor tells me that's more about writing flaws than about some even more sinister thing at work.

And it would be even much more lamer to have some "possession" or other "out of the hat" bad explanations.

[SeanMurphy2]

I did not expect him to be such an outright villain. I would prefer him to be left a morally grey character. He still abandons Cailan at Ostager. But he would not carry out so many obviously evil schemes, assasinations, kidnappings and slavery.



Part of the game would be understanding what he did at Ostager. Or be willing to forgive him because you need to join together to fight the Blight. He would not always turn out to be a villain depending on your perspective and choices.



Howe could fill the role of the outright villain.

[Cazlee]

One thing I find weird is that my human noble rogue had the option of asking Alistair in the Tower of Ishal "Could the darkspawn have known of our plans to light the beacon?" My mage did not get the option to ask him this. The only difference that I can think of is that my noble talked to Loghain and the King's guards, plus talked to Loghain at his tent whereas my mage did not. I was wondering if my human noble was onto something.

Modifié par Cazlee, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:57 .

[Gilead26]

Loghain's entire life was defined by fighting Orlesians to him the threat of Orleis taking back Ferelden was probably much more real and dangerous then the threat of darkspawn.

[hexaligned]

Well I understand sanity is relative, but he isn't anymore insane than say..Alistair, both are selfish to the point of it being a fault, and both let that selfishness blind them to an extent that is bad for the kingdom.