218 réponses à ce sujet

[Mara281]

Real quick before I get started here are a few other threads following this same idea that I found after writing this up. Please feel free to link up more if you find them so we can show BioWare what an important issue this is. At the very least they should give us a formal apology. But in truth I think there needs to be some major patches or a free DLC for this kind of damage and outrage.

http://social.biowar...5/index/9766428
http://social.biowar...5/index/9829443


This is a lengthy essay on the NEGATIVE implications BioWare has made by the actions they took with the Female Shepard’s romance options (I don’t even have to touch on the other issues with some characters to get the point across that’s how bad BW has become in this game). The impact is larger when you realize what it means in the greater scheme of things, and not just what it means for female replay value of ME3. A move like this against FemShep could possibly impact the respect and equality of females throughout the gaming industry in a hugely harmful manner. Yes BW and EA are that big. A lot of companies will look that the sales of ME3 and believe that what BW did works. They’ll cut equality for females for sake of a  small increase to the bottom line, because we aren’t as big of a market yet. EA will do it on principle because it worked once and they run their numbers off of the sales, not necessarily the complaints. And if we don’t say something about this, the developers won’t care enough to take a stand for these types of standards and it WILL continue and get worse. We NEED to get the developers attention on this matter. And if we’re lucky, maybe even some of the higher ups so they can see how much of an impact this made.

As far as I know, and correct me if I’m wrong please, but BioWare had (notice the past tense) always provided an equal amount of relationship possibilities for the girls (speaking from my knowledge of previous games beginning with KOTOR). In fact, I had always considered BioWare to be a forerunner for female gamers. They provided equally compelling and lush story and romance options for the female character as well as the male versions and I believe helped forward the movement to include women into mainstream gaming. More than that, BioWare set a precedence for equality in general. By provided women with the same opportunity as men, and by making such great positive statements about people with different cultures (species/beliefs/etc) within their games, BioWare made huge strides in helping combat issues of inequality in society. Challenging the norms of inequality in their games may seem like a small step with a small impact, but their many small steps have added up and we’ve come to expect that level of openness and fair treatment in all their works. We have come to see them as proprietors of the ideal where people are valued no matter what gender or race they are. However, in ME3 all that has changed and BW seems to be moving backwards, subverting ideas of female equality and reverting back to the male chauvinism that’s sickened female gamers, and women in general, for years.

Look at how they’ve rewarded one of the strongest female characters in gaming world history. Male Shepard has 8 romance options: 6 girls to choose from and 2 boys (Ashley, Diana, Jack, Liara, Miranda, Tali, Cortez, and Kaidan). Female Shepard has 5, count them - 5 TOTAL - romance options and the majority of them are lesbian encounters (Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Samantha, Diana). Seriously? Especially after BioWare spent so much time and money marketing to us with the femshep trailer, what happened here? Exactly what are you trying to imply, Bioware? That in order to be a strong female character, we should be lesbians? That girls are less capable of cultivating relationships than men are? That girls are just eye candy and guys need MORE romances when THEY play femshep to live out their own lesbian wet dreams? That your female fan base is not important to you except in only the most base manner? Or maybe it’s that we are so beneath your notice anymore that you can completely abandon female equality in one of your biggest and most anticipated games ever. What a statement.

I also recently found that Ashley gets more face time with Male Shep than Kaidan does with Fem Shep (not sure if this is accurate since I haven’t seen all the Ashley scenes myself, but Ash gets a male shep visit at the memorial wall and a date, femshep gets a date and Kaidan pretty much disappears after that) . Now using this as an estimation for how much effort they put into the femshep romances in general (Kaidan is hugely popular and is probably the technical choice for femshep so he would most likely get the most attention in development), we can reasonably assume that the same treatment is carried throughout the rest of femshep’s romances. So not only do we have less love interest options in the so-called ‘most anticipated game of the year’, but female players get less time with the few romances we get in addition to that. They didn’t even try to make up for the lack of choices we had.

Want to take it a step further? I certainly don’t, but Bioware did with the casual outfits. Male Shepard gets a very classy leather N7 jacket with casual pants as one of his casual clothes options. I loved this outfit the moment I saw it and was extremely excited to have my femshep wear it. Only she can’t, because in place of a classy jacket and pant set, femshep gets a copy of Diana Allers dress in N7 colors, a dress that looks not only out of place in the Mass Effect universe, but skanky as hell as well. What happened to that lovely balance of sex appeal and professionalism we saw in ME2. Granted, I wasn’t crazy about the dress, but it did strike that balance of looking sexy while still being RESPECTABLE. FemShep is a RESPECTABLE woman, BW, not some hooker looking for the next great ride. Really, I would have much preferred the jacket/pant set that Male Shep had, especially knowing that FemShep isn’t exactly a dress kind of girl (evident in her response to Kasumi in ME2’s DLC). Besides, if you really wanted that dress as an option, would it be so bad to have ONE more outfit for the girls than the guys? To throw us a bone here and say, we know that we have a female customer base and we appreciate your support so here’s an extra outfit because we know how you gals love your clothes? Not that one outfit would ever make up for the lack of equal opportunity at romances in the game, but hey it would have been one less blow to femshep’s respectability.

I know part of the issue in ME3 is that so many of the options for femshep leave. Jacob finds a new flame and Thane dies (though Thane’s death is expected from ME2). If that’s the case why didn’t you do the same with the guys? Miranda dies and Jack finds a new flame? James becomes romancable? Kaidan stays hetero? Really, why does Ashley get to keep her hetero status and Kaidan doesn’t? Not to take away from the S/S crowd or anything, but you did give them Cortez and Sam, who are both awesome characters, I loved them both to pieces (especially Cortez, might have to play male shep just to romance him!). Remember that you are the developers, you don’t have to ALWAYS cater to the fans. You proved that point with your endings, why didn’t you continue to prove it with your romances and give us equal stakes. So the only guy femshep can be with exclusively is Garrus, a turian who can’t have intimate relations without injuring her? Wow Bioware, what a way to shaft your female players (and not a good way either).Would it have been so hard to keep your standards? Would it have been so hard to keep female players on equal and respectable grounds? From what you pulled in ME3, I guess so. I’m so incredibly ashamed of you right now, Bioware. What a way to ****** on the female equality you had been promoting for years in your Most. Anticipated. Game. Ever.  And you even marketed a trailer just for us. Shame on you. Complete and utter shame on you.

Please don’t take this as BioWare hate. I am extremely… extraordinarily hurt and angry with them about this, but I don’t hate them. I’ve loved BioWare games. I think they are thoughtful, engaging, and innovative. I thought they were groundbreaking in both their storylines and their implications about society. I’m writing this because I CARE so much about this very negative and impactful direction BioWare has taken all of sudden and hopefully by exposing this issue, they won’t do this again or will better yet, fix it. Because this hurts MORE than their female fan base. After a long line of female equal games, this turn affects women in general now. The statement they make about women by doing this is just disgusting. What they did in ME3 to FemShep is an incredibly huge blow because FemShep is one of the very few positive gaming icons we have. Really, who else out there isn’t over sexualized, strong, resourceful, and can cultivate intimate relationships even while she has to save the galaxy? So if you believe that BioWare should get back to treating WOMEN as equally valued PEOPLE and not just players, keep this issue alive. It’s not just about playability at this point anymore, it’s about the horrible message they sent to world by reducing FemShep’s respect and opportunities in such a widely anticipated game. Sociologists, psychologists, and even literary scholars have been studying the increasingly large impact video games have been making in our society. IT DOES MATTER. It’s not ‘just a game’ it becomes part of our culture. And do we really want to cultivate the idea that women deserve less? That our HEROINES deserve less? I think not. And guys we need your help in this issue too because we aren’t as big of a crowd in the gaming universe as you are yet. We need a few heroes to step up and give us gals support to have equal opportunities in the gaming world, because games are big money. Games do have big impacts in our society. And BioWare just made a HUGE statement against femshep that will make a big impact on WOMEN. And Bioware, if you’re paying attention, please fix this, because more than anything else with anything you’ve made… this is where you went terribly wrong.


Please let me know your thoughts, any additions or maybe misinterpretations (I would love to be wrong about the whole Kaidan/Ashley face-time thing). I'm not trying to diminish what they did put in the game, only the large lack of equality presented in the in femsheps choices of romances as well as the whole clothing issue. Don't get me started on the EDI and Diana Allers thing...

Modifié par Mara281, 13 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[ravene]

yep I have a single straight fem shep with Ash as VS and im sol in the romance department for 3 as well as one who romanced thayne and im with you on that.

and the hardest part is they put so much flirting diliog in tehre with james that it shouldnt have been hard to implement a romance with him.

[breyant]

I agree with this entire post.

I thought long and hard about how what kind of Shepard I wanted to take into ME3 for the first time. She lost Kaidan on Virmire, and was planning on a romance with James. It was so sad seeing her wake up after what should have been the romance scene... forever alone.

Modifié par breyant, 13 mars 2012 - 01:14 .

[Femmefatality07]

Yeah. I'm not going up in arms about it, but it's come to my attention to as of yesterday. It's friggin pathetic. Hetero shep is NOT AMUSED.

[susanwb]

Interestingly, I just read an article in the Wall Street Journal last week about how gaming is good for your brain, and one of the stand-out statistics they quoted in their info-graphic was that 42% of gamers are female, and the majority of all gamers are more mature than might be guessed (I think the age range was 25-35). Sooo.... I don't know that those stats necessarily apply to a game like ME3 (probably more of those female gamers are playing other types of games), but even if it's significantly smaller, you can probably safely say that at least 25% of their audience is adult women. That's a pretty big piece of the pie. It just seems so utterly stupid for a company to disregard their customers in this way, especially when they have a track record of NOT doing so.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I didn't even consider Garrus an option. He's kind of spiky, and as good a friend as he could be, he's just not attractive by human standards. Plus he would hurt a human.

Thane was kind of alien in thought patterns, and again not that attractive by human standards, although I did romance him in ME2 with the character I'm playing through with.

I "virmired" Kaiden in ME1, which left me nothing but Garrus (physically out of the question), Liara, Samantha, and Diana. Although Liara technically is neither male nor female, come on, she's "the blue space babe." So there was only s/s available. Period. I was wishing that Anderson was available.

(And we had no ship's doctor? and don't give me that -- well if you'd saved Chakwas you would have had one. Who's the doctor? EDI? Hell she might as well be. She has access to more information about every species than anyone else.)

James was full of hot air, and the rest of the crew was gay. Well Joker was into that robot sort of thing with EDI.

The romance thing isn't that important to me in the game, but it is to a lot of people. It needs to be treated fairly across genders. Gays make up 5-10% of the population. I think in the future the LIs need to be handled:

* 1 hetero, 1 bi, 1 g/l -- keep it simple. And in a game like ME where you have a military, keep it out of the chain of command.

* I don't want to bring politics into this thread, but please look around and see what's happening to women's rights. It isn't pretty. I'll shut up about this now.

Also the appearance of the default female Shepard changed from a woman in her early 30s to one who looks barely out of high school. I'm sorry, but I've got to call a spade a spade. Granted the early to mid 30s thing might seem like playing "mom" to a teenager. Funny how the gaming industry has no problem letting young boys play "dad" in video games.

We know in the acting business in Hollywood it is nearly impossible for a woman to get a lead role if she's over 40 unless she already has a huge box office name. And even then she's usually playing a role written for a woman about 15 yrs younger. Men on the other hand have lead roles written for them up into their 50s.

Anyway. I should go.

PS: had a thought... maybe they overdid the S/S thing on purpose because of the over lobbying.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 mars 2012 - 01:28 .

[Mara281]

susanwb wrote...

Interestingly, I just read an article in the Wall Street Journal last week about how gaming is good for your brain, and one of the stand-out statistics they quoted in their info-graphic was that 42% of gamers are female, and the majority of all gamers are more mature than might be guessed (I think the age range was 25-35). Sooo.... I don't know that those stats necessarily apply to a game like ME3 (probably more of those female gamers are playing other types of games), but even if it's significantly smaller, you can probably safely say that at least 25% of their audience is adult women. That's a pretty big piece of the pie. It just seems so utterly stupid for a company to disregard their customers in this way, especially when they have a track record of NOT doing so.

Hadn't read this but that's a good point. I'm actually in that main demographic and but I only play a few select games. Glad to hear that female gamers are more popular that I thought

[Mara281]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I didn't even consider Garrus an option. He's kind of spiky, and as good a friend as he could be, he's just not attractive by human standards. Plus he would hurt a human.

Thane was kind of alien in thought patterns, and again not that attractive by human standards, although I did romance him in ME2 with the character I'm playing through with.

I "virmired" Kaiden in ME1, which left me nothing but Garrus (physically out of the question), Liara, Samantha, and Diana. Although Liara technically is neither male nor female, come on, she's "the blue space babe." So there was only s/s available. Period. I was wishing that Anderson was available.

(And we had no ship's doctor? and don't give me that -- well if you'd saved Chakwas you would have had one. Who's the doctor? EDI? Hell she might as well be. She has access to more information about every species than anyone else.)

James was full of hot air, and the rest of the crew was gay. Well Joker was into that robot sort of thing with EDI.

The romance thing isn't that important to me in the game, but it is to a lot of people. It needs to be treated fairly across genders. Gays make up 5-10% of the population. I think in the future the LIs need to be handled:

* 1 hetero, 1 bi, 1 g/l -- keep it simple. And in a game like ME where you have a military, keep it out of the chain of command.

* I don't want to bring politics into this thread, but please look around and see what's happening to women's rights. It isn't pretty. I'll shut up about this now.

Also the appearance of the default female Shepard changed from a woman in her early 30s to one who looks barely out of high school. I'm sorry, but I've got to call a spade a spade. Granted the early to mid 30s thing might seem like playing "mom" to a teenager. Funny how the gaming industry has no problem letting young boys play "dad" in video games.

We know in the acting business in Hollywood it is nearly impossible for a woman to get a lead role if she's over 40 unless she already has a huge box office name. And even then she's usually playing a role written for a woman about 15 yrs younger. Men on the other hand have lead roles written for them up into their 50s.

Anyway. I should go.

I feel the pain. BioWare should be upholding the value of treating their female characters with the same equality, not throwing in the towel with the rest of entertainment society.

[shadey]

I probably couldn't play this game if I was a straight female

liara was the only decent option for femshep throughout the whole series, though asari have only one gender they are basically female in appearance. Thane and garrus were far to alien in their appearance to be LI's.

traynor was ok in me3, though I guess straight female players wouldn't have been particularly interested

Modifié par shadey, 13 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[KMYash]

If I remember correctly I heard that Garrus is only romance-able if you do some in ME2. So lets say you killed Kaidan in ME1 and didn't romance Garrus in 2 or killed him. You now have, let's count them. ZERO male love interests for Femshep.

Also I don't know if you can hit on Joker as Male Shep but you can as FemShep and guess what. He rejects you.

So for Femshep that means:

Kaidan: possibly romance-able/dead
Garrus: possible IF you import romance from 2 or he romances Tali
James: Flirts but no romance
Joker: Rejects you for a sexbot
Thane: dies/'romance-able' if you import
Jacob: if romanced in 2 you get dumped/cheated on

I was lucky. I like Kaidan and I am planning on doing a Garrus playthrough because his lines are just amazing. But I really wanted to do a Joker play. And after playing through I wanted a James play. But I realized that there was nothing that I could start in 3 besides a rekindling with Kaidan. Now I actually would have been interested in doing an Ashley playthrough but for whatever reason they took her out. (would have preferred her 100% to Allers or Traynor not because I hated those characters but because I'd prefer Ashley and hey one VS is bi but not the other?)

Not everyone would have liked him but at least making Vega romance-able would slightly even the odds. And heck, there were a decent group of people that have been asking for a Joker romance since game 1 came out. When I first played 2, that was actually what I checked. Can I rope myself a brittle boned pilot. But, I never got to.

So I agree with you post. It feels so restrictive and feels like "Well obviously most women are gorgeous lesbians. Yep. Straight women? Nope, not unless you're a man." I'm all for gay romances in games but I think they should either be equal to heterosexual romances or 'proportional' to the 'real world'. (I.E. I don't know the statistics on sexuality but lets just say two straight options for every gay option? So Shep has 3 straight options for every one gay option. FemShep on the other hand does not)

Also that was the most hideous dress I've ever seen.

TLDR: I agree

Modifié par KMYash, 13 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[Jack of Wolves]

...devil's advocate, but rejecting them as "too alien" doesn't mean they aren't there as an option.

..and "Canon" Femshep still looks early 30s to me.. don't forget also in this that "early 30s" is not as old by human standards as it was once, given medical advances in the series' 'Verse (male counterpoint: Mal Reynolds, who's actually pushing at fifty in-verse for Firefly -- but humans live longer now, and its a poor thing to suggest that means they just live twice as long after aging normally for today's standards).

..a lot of the LIs were.. kinda lacklsuter overall, though, and FemShep took the brunt of it. I can't have the LI I want Tali) on the character I prefer (I favor Hale's performance by a large amrgin) either.. so one cannot help but be a LITTLE sympathetic...

[shadey]

wait vega isn't a romance for me3?

hahah wow ok yeah straight females did get a pretty raw deal and kaiden also considering is bi in me3 so yeah

[Mara281]

shadey wrote...

I probably couldn't play this game if I was a straight female

liara was the only decent option for femshep throughout the whole series, though asari have only one gender they are basically female in appearance. Thane and garrus were far to alien in their appearance to be LI's.

traynor was ok in me3, though I guess straight female players wouldn't have been particularly interested

 
Oh, I'll totally be romancing them even though I'm straight, just because I love seeing the bonds being built between them. But a lot of other female players don't feel the same way and I want to fight for all the gals that play femshep

[Hadeedak]

I am amused that both Kaidan and Garrus can be dead. And if Thane isn't, the game fixes that right quick. That being said, I was pretty charmed by the Garrus romance, and found the Thane one well done minus THE COMPLETE AND THOROUGH LACK OF FOLLOWUP, where the only acknowledgement in 'verse is a line in the dream that might be Thane, Garrus remarking he's glad they 'only lost the one' in front of the wall (which is probably referring to whoever died at Virmire), and Garrus reacting strongly to Kai Leng's "Your friend Thane died like a coward!". Garrus responds with "I'll tear his head off!" Then there's Shepard's final lines to Leng. None of these are exactly unequivocal for your crew noticing someone important to you died, and that's the ONLY Thane stuff I've been able to find. And it was a touching romance in 2 and started strong in 3.

[Mara281]

Hadeedak wrote...

I am amused that both Kaidan and Garrus can be dead. And if Thane isn't, the game fixes that right quick. That being said, I was pretty charmed by the Garrus romance, and found the Thane one well done minus THE COMPLETE AND THOROUGH LACK OF FOLLOWUP, where the only acknowledgement in 'verse is a line in the dream that might be Thane, Garrus remarking he's glad they 'only lost the one' in front of the wall (which is probably referring to whoever died at Virmire), and Garrus reacting strongly to Kai Leng's "Your friend Thane died like a coward!". Garrus responds with "I'll tear his head off!" Then there's Shepard's final lines to Leng. None of these are exactly unequivocal for your crew noticing someone important to you died, and that's the ONLY Thane stuff I've been able to find. And it was a touching romance in 2 and started strong in 3.

I know, my poor Shepane file. She's going to be devastated. But I'm glad you put in those tidbits with what Garrus says about it. I didn't get that conver with Leng, so now I know to bring Garrus along for some extra line love

[Babizokahh]

I agree. I belive Dragon Age goes way better than ME on this department, romance i mean. I know they have different teams working on them, but both share the same aspects. On DA, always balanced for both genders, and there are a lot scenes together,a lot of flirt and coments that make us belive the characters have something.

Haven't finished the game yet, butI have to say, i got a little sad when i read,that after i got back together with Kaidan, the only romantic scene i was about to have was the one before the last mission. Really? We're on the same ship, fighting the same missions, visiting the same planets, and they can only get together before the end? c'mon. And the few times i'm allowed to talk to him, they don't even look like a couple, act mostly as friends. Cortez, not my type, i'm not dying to see him as a LI for femshep or anything, but i think its unfair that he gets more face time with my shepard than my LI. We went for drinks on the bar, talked about life, and other stuff. and what i got with Kaidan was... a coffee. After that, it just looked that kaidan was my bro or something. About Joker, i actually like him with EDI but just the possibility of romance with him would be very nice.

I too agree that they could have given us James, they took time to write lots of flirty coments (a lot more than i'm getting with my love interest at least.) but couldn't make him a LI?

About the casual outfits for Femshep... God. That terrible outfit from the refugees (seriously, i hate that outfit ). The one that makes you look like an Doctor. A dress that looks like it was bought from a tasteless sex shop. Gee, thanks bioware designers. From 6 options, 3 sucks, 2 that are ok but looks very similar, and the Hoody. The hoody is nice, yes, and i'm currently wearing it and loving it,but it does look a little boyish, with the cargo pants and all.

I wished Femshep wasn't so poorly treated too.

Modifié par Babizokahh, 13 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[recentio]

Mara281 wrote...

Look at how they’ve rewarded one of the strongest female characters in gaming world history. Male Shepard has 8 romance options: 6 girls to choose from and 2 boys (Ashley, Diana, Jack, Liara, Miranda, Tali, Cortez, and Kaidan). Female Shepard has 5, count them - 5 TOTAL - romance options and the majority of them are lesbian encounters (Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Samantha, Diana). Seriously? Especially after BioWare spent so much time and money marketing to us with the femshep trailer, what happened here? Exactly what are you trying to imply, Bioware? That in order to be a strong female character, we should be lesbians? That girls are less capable of cultivating relationships than men are? That girls are just eye candy and guys need MORE romances when THEY play femshep to live out their own lesbian wet dreams? That your female fan base is not important to you except in only the most base manner? Or maybe it’s that we are so beneath your notice anymore that you can completely abandon female equality in one of your biggest and most anticipated games ever. What a statement.

Some of us girl gamers are lesbians. I thought it felt nice to be included. Sure, I could go off on how I had so few options in comparison to others. Heck, the only long-term f/f LI is a "mono-gendered" alien. Am I pissed? Nah. Liara's pretty great, IMO.

Aside from that point, though, I feel that romance and appearance options don't define Shepard. FemShep has a great VA, says all the same lines as Sheploo, does all the same actions, etc. They are treated absolutely equally to the point that some have called out the fistfight between James and FemShep as physically absurd, and not without a reasonable point. I know if I put up my dukes against a guy three times my size, I'd probably die from the first punch.

Even though FemShep makes up only ~20% of the Shepard's played, BW made a trailer with her, used Hale for a ton of public appearances and interviews, printed a full FemShep version of the cover slip. (All you have to do is turn it around and BAM, FemShep ME3 cover. Awesome. )

I think Bioware has done a great job with FemShep in every way, and I love them for it.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

FemShep has Garrus.

Argument of this thread is invalid.

[Spiffy McBang]

Mara281 wrote...

And guys we need your help in this issue too because we aren’t as big of a crowd in the gaming universe as you are yet.

I usually assume my name is a dead giveaway that I'm a guy, but now that you bring it up I think it's worth it for us fellas to point that fact out in a discussion like this.

I generally play female characters in games.  I don't treat them as avatars; they're characters I'm pushing around the world.  Most people grasp this concept, I think, as it's been quite some time since anyone questioned my sexuality or simply boggled at this particular preference.  And plenty of people treat their game characters the same way.

That being the case, if Bioware recognizes that players of any gender consider story and story options critical to their gaming experience- which they obviously do, given the basis of their games- then they need to recognize that includes guys who expect to have stories of equivalent depth to tell about their playthroughs regardless of the choices they make.  Those choices start at the character creation screen.  None of the other slider bars make a difference, right?  Redhead, blond, and brunette Shepards all have the same possibilities.  So do ones with fat faces or thin, ugly mugs or lovely ones.  Gender should have no more impact on the wealth of possible experiences than any of these other traits, otherwise the player is robbed for no good reason- and that player is, in many cases, male.

Tycho from PA has routinely mentioned he has a female character.  It bears mentioning, at this point, that Penny Arcade is in large part famous because Tycho frequently has a keen grasp of what's important in the gaming world and manages to represent the gaming community as a whole very well with his posts.  That's why he's taken seriously, because he's not some mumbling ****** with no concept of what's important and what makes games work.  If he's running female characters- and he's also talked about doing so in WoW, and I would guess other games with the option as well- how many other male players are doing the same thing and expecting an equally deep game?

Which, by the way, you Bioware folks pulled off in DA 1 and 2 and Mass Effect 1 and 2.

I don't know how EA plays into this.  I don't really care.  That's company politics, and in the end all we see as players is the end result.  What I want is for what we say here to have some chance, however small it might be, of impacting that final product.  So if you're from BW and reading this, please trust me on this- the fact you guys worked in a heavy dose of equality was a boon to your other games.  But now that it's there, it's an expectation that must be met.  It's bad enough to see it so infrequently in gaming as a whole; to give it and then take it away is an order of magnitude worse.  The people who don't care about this have the rest of the gaming world to cater to them. Just make good games and they'll stick with you.  But if you fix this problem going forward, you'll have a healthy minority of the world's gamers added on to that number as ultra-loyal customers, and for the EA number crunchers, that all goes to your bottom line.

Better equality means better quality; it will never screw up your game, and can only improve it.  It helps us and you.  Make it happen.

P.S.  I had Shepard wear the dress once, specifically to go dance in Purgatory.  That's the only reason I can see for its existence.  I liked the idea of the hoodie, but it was just too informal, especially when talking to Hackett.  The basic blue outfit worked well enough, I thought, but I'll have to defer to better clothes experts on the matter.

Modifié par Spiffy McBang, 13 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[Spiffy McBang]

recentio wrote...

Some of us girl gamers are lesbians. I thought it felt nice to be included. Sure, I could go off on how I had so few options in comparison to others. Heck, the only long-term f/f LI is a "mono-gendered" alien. Am I pissed? Nah. Liara's pretty great, IMO.

Aside from that point, though, I feel that romance and appearance options don't define Shepard. FemShep has a great VA, says all the same lines as Sheploo, does all the same actions, etc. They are treated absolutely equally to the point that some have called out the fistfight between James and FemShep as physically absurd, and not without a reasonable point. I know if I put up my dukes against a guy three times my size, I'd probably die from the first punch.

Even though FemShep makes up only ~20% of the Shepard's played, BW made a trailer with her, used Hale for a ton of public appearances and interviews, printed a full FemShep version of the cover slip. (All you have to do is turn it around and BAM, FemShep ME3 cover. Awesome. )

I think Bioware has done a great job with FemShep in every way, and I love them for it.

The outside-the-game stuff BW has done with FemShep was a drastic improvement over previous iterations.  I don't know if promoting Jennifer Hale counts as much because she's so superior to the male VA that she's actually become somewhat famous for the role, unlike him; playing her up is an obvious move.  But none of the positives you list as far as in-game treatment of FemShep are new.  They all existed in 1 and 2.  So 3 is a step back.

I also don't think anyone is complaining there are too many lesbian romances, just that there are more of them than hetero ones, which is incredibly unrealistic.  Plus, the nature of the male romantic options being such that neither might be available is on a whole other plane of stupid.  If they had gone 6 straight/2 gay for ManShep and 5 straight/3 gay for FemShep, no one would utter a peep about it being somehow unfair.

[recentio]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

recentio wrote...

Some of us girl gamers are lesbians. I thought it felt nice to be included. Sure, I could go off on how I had so few options in comparison to others. Heck, the only long-term f/f LI is a "mono-gendered" alien. Am I pissed? Nah. Liara's pretty great, IMO.

Aside from that point, though, I feel that romance and appearance options don't define Shepard. FemShep has a great VA, says all the same lines as Sheploo, does all the same actions, etc. They are treated absolutely equally to the point that some have called out the fistfight between James and FemShep as physically absurd, and not without a reasonable point. I know if I put up my dukes against a guy three times my size, I'd probably die from the first punch.

Even though FemShep makes up only ~20% of the Shepard's played, BW made a trailer with her, used Hale for a ton of public appearances and interviews, printed a full FemShep version of the cover slip. (All you have to do is turn it around and BAM, FemShep ME3 cover. Awesome. )

I think Bioware has done a great job with FemShep in every way, and I love them for it.

The outside-the-game stuff BW has done with FemShep was a drastic improvement over previous iterations.  I don't know if promoting Jennifer Hale counts as much because she's so superior to the male VA that she's actually become somewhat famous for the role, unlike him; playing her up is an obvious move.  But none of the positives you list as far as in-game treatment of FemShep are new.  They all existed in 1 and 2.  So 3 is a step back.

I also don't think anyone is complaining there are too many lesbian romances, just that there are more of them than hetero ones, which is incredibly unrealistic.  Plus, the nature of the male romantic options being such that neither might be available is on a whole other plane of stupid.  If they had gone 6 straight/2 gay for ManShep and 5 straight/3 gay for FemShep, no one would utter a peep about it being somehow unfair.

It would've been nice if they'd added James/FemShep. He's a cool guy. Really great voice. I don't think Allers should count at the same value as the others, though. She's so trivial.

I still don't see ME3 as a step back for FemShep. For her romance options maybe, but not for the character as a whole. Definitely not after all of the public acknowledgment and attention BW has shown her this time around.

[Mara281]

recentio wrote...

Mara281 wrote...

Look at how they’ve rewarded one of the strongest female characters in gaming world history. Male Shepard has 8 romance options: 6 girls to choose from and 2 boys (Ashley, Diana, Jack, Liara, Miranda, Tali, Cortez, and Kaidan). Female Shepard has 5, count them - 5 TOTAL - romance options and the majority of them are lesbian encounters (Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Samantha, Diana). Seriously? Especially after BioWare spent so much time and money marketing to us with the femshep trailer, what happened here? Exactly what are you trying to imply, Bioware? That in order to be a strong female character, we should be lesbians? That girls are less capable of cultivating relationships than men are? That girls are just eye candy and guys need MORE romances when THEY play femshep to live out their own lesbian wet dreams? That your female fan base is not important to you except in only the most base manner? Or maybe it’s that we are so beneath your notice anymore that you can completely abandon female equality in one of your biggest and most anticipated games ever. What a statement.

Some of us girl gamers are lesbians. I thought it felt nice to be included. Sure, I could go off on how I had so few options in comparison to others. Heck, the only long-term f/f LI is a "mono-gendered" alien. Am I pissed? Nah. Liara's pretty great, IMO.

Aside from that point, though, I feel that romance and appearance options don't define Shepard. FemShep has a great VA, says all the same lines as Sheploo, does all the same actions, etc. They are treated absolutely equally to the point that some have called out the fistfight between James and FemShep as physically absurd, and not without a reasonable point. I know if I put up my dukes against a guy three times my size, I'd probably die from the first punch.

Even though FemShep makes up only ~20% of the Shepard's played, BW made a trailer with her, used Hale for a ton of public appearances and interviews, printed a full FemShep version of the cover slip. (All you have to do is turn it around and BAM, FemShep ME3 cover. Awesome. )

I think Bioware has done a great job with FemShep in every way, and I love them for it.

They have done a great job with FemShep. I'm not arguing that FemShep isn't amazing, I'm arguing the unfair treatment toward our amazing FemShep Jennifer Hale, I feel, does an outstanding job and it's amazing that BW has done so much for female player in its games up to this point. And yes, while romance options and clothing don't define Shepard, it's the principle that female players got less in the game. As if BioWare says that we are worth less and so deserve less, and therefore they are going to give us less. Unless we stand up and demand fair treatment, they won't give it to us. But I can understand that some people don't mind. I mind, which is why I posted this

The issue is, here is a large gaming company that's held a history of promoting female equality in their games and now they suddenly took a turn that painted an unrealistic and unfair view of women. If you want to go just by the numbers, no... there are not 3 lesbian women for every 2 straight gals. I'm glad they have the s/s romances in there, BW has often provided a lesbian romance in their games. The point is that they're providing them disproportionately so, making implications that either more of us should be lesbians, or that they only care that their male market wants some girl on girl action in the game. Neither of which resonates well with a huge group of their female fans. Add in that we barely got more than half the amount of options male shep got just makes it feel worse. BioWare set this presedent of equality in many previous games. I simply wish to hold them to their own standard.

[Spiffy McBang]

Honestly... much of the way the game plays as FemShep in 3 feels off to me, and I had this sense long before I knew anything about the romance debacle. Mostly this revolves around how she talks to her female friends, or rather how they talk to her, in that sort of "love interest" lilt. It's especially noticeable with Ashley; I swear I was waiting for her to go all doe-eyed at Shepard, even though she's straight as a board. Miranda obviously interacts with Shepard a lot less, but she very much comes off as speaking to a (potential) romantic partner, not just a buddy. Tali was kinda-sorta like that too. Jack softened up, but her own story allows for that.

If this description is somewhat vague, the best way I can put it is that I saw in them the same type of behavior I saw in Liara at the start of the game, and Liara was my FemShep's ME1 partner. It felt like their mannerisms were leaning that heavily towards potential romance as opposed to friendship. The only explanation for it I can see is that the actresses were reading their lines as if it were a male Shepard on the receiving end, with FemShep simply given the friends-only lines where applicable. And it didn't feel like Shepard and whichever friend were always operating on the same wavelength.

The sparring scene with Vega plays into this as well. In ME 1 and 2, they never put Shepard in a position where the situation looked reasonable with a male Shepard but odd, unlikely, or downright unrealistic with a female one. I won't go so far as to say the sparring was BS- it's practice fighting, with the idea being that Vega isn't trying to take her head off. But this is the first time I can recall where the question would even need to be asked.

The short version is, it feels like the first two games were written for Shepard, and this game was written for ManShep. And while I do appreciate the greater push for FemShep in advertising, playing the game has made me somewhat cynical about why they may have done it. I think it's good, regardless of the reasons, but I kind of wonder if they were trying to lock in the FemShep fans knowing they screwed the pooch on her in-game.

Edit: If y'all think I'm nuts for seeing things this way, tell me.  But I got this feeling early and I couldn't shake it the whole game.  I went so far as to imagine how the male Shepard's interactions would look with FemShep's potential partners or old flings.  Kaidan, Liara, and Allers don't count because they're available to both, so it would be the same either way.  Jacob was straight friendship for my FemShep, so that would stick for ManShep too.  Thane was already an emotional situation because of his disease, so no reason for that to be different either way.  Traynor is very professional, if nervous, until she jumps in your shower.  Garrus... hell, Garrus was my FemShep's ME2 guy and she never got him to say anything flirty after their initial reunion.  The women just seemed to have their lines designed and read in such a way as to be attractive to the guy, whereas the reverse isn't true.  The unequal romance numbers are bad, but this bothers me more because it suggests this is a problem in the perception of male and female characters and not simply the product of an oversight.

Modifié par Spiffy McBang, 13 mars 2012 - 06:12 .

[Mara281]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

recentio wrote...

Some of us girl gamers are lesbians. I thought it felt nice to be included. Sure, I could go off on how I had so few options in comparison to others. Heck, the only long-term f/f LI is a "mono-gendered" alien. Am I pissed? Nah. Liara's pretty great, IMO.

Aside from that point, though, I feel that romance and appearance options don't define Shepard. FemShep has a great VA, says all the same lines as Sheploo, does all the same actions, etc. They are treated absolutely equally to the point that some have called out the fistfight between James and FemShep as physically absurd, and not without a reasonable point. I know if I put up my dukes against a guy three times my size, I'd probably die from the first punch.

Even though FemShep makes up only ~20% of the Shepard's played, BW made a trailer with her, used Hale for a ton of public appearances and interviews, printed a full FemShep version of the cover slip. (All you have to do is turn it around and BAM, FemShep ME3 cover. Awesome. )

I think Bioware has done a great job with FemShep in every way, and I love them for it.

The outside-the-game stuff BW has done with FemShep was a drastic improvement over previous iterations.  I don't know if promoting Jennifer Hale counts as much because she's so superior to the male VA that she's actually become somewhat famous for the role, unlike him; playing her up is an obvious move.  But none of the positives you list as far as in-game treatment of FemShep are new.  They all existed in 1 and 2.  So 3 is a step back.

I also don't think anyone is complaining there are too many lesbian romances, just that there are more of them than hetero ones, which is incredibly unrealistic.  Plus, the nature of the male romantic options being such that neither might be available is on a whole other plane of stupid.  If they had gone 6 straight/2 gay for ManShep and 5 straight/3 gay for FemShep, no one would utter a peep about it being somehow unfair.

I agree. If BW had evened the numbers for the romantic playing field, it probably wouldn't be an issue. The fact that they used Jennifer Hale counts toward the marketing, not necessarily to whether or not femshep is being treated fairly. Besides, she resonates more with male players than mark meer does as well, so she's a good choice to drive up sales in both demographics. It's a smart move business wise no doubt, it's just really sad because we get all this new marketing and publicity about FemShep, but IN the game femshep has recieved a lack of  the same attention to her story and opportunities.

[KelaSaar]

I think part of what really burns is that Bioware actively took away love interests from FemShep. Thane was always going to die, but they certainly could have fleshed out the romantic aspect a lot more before he died, and there was absolutely no excuse for Jacob to do what he did. It didn't fit his character and it wasn't needed for the story. I think if they had left these two guys in, things would have felt much more even.