218 réponses à ce sujet

[Mara281]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

Honestly... much of the way the game plays as FemShep in 3 feels off to me, and I had this sense long before I knew anything about the romance debacle. Mostly this revolves around how she talks to her female friends, or rather how they talk to her, in that sort of "love interest" lilt. It's especially noticeable with Ashley; I swear I was waiting for her to go all doe-eyed at Shepard, even though she's straight as a board. Miranda obviously interacts with Shepard a lot less, but she very much comes off as speaking to a (potential) romantic partner, not just a buddy. Tali was kinda-sorta like that too. Jack softened up, but her own story allows for that.

If this description is somewhat vague, the best way I can put it is that I saw in them the same type of behavior I saw in Liara at the start of the game, and Liara was my FemShep's ME1 partner. It felt like their mannerisms were leaning that heavily towards potential romance as opposed to friendship. The only explanation for it I can see is that the actresses were reading their lines as if it were a male Shepard on the receiving end, with FemShep simply given the friends-only lines where applicable. And it didn't feel like Shepard and whichever friend were always operating on the same wavelength.

The sparring scene with Vega plays into this as well. In ME 1 and 2, they never put Shepard in a position where the situation looked reasonable with a male Shepard but odd, unlikely, or downright unrealistic with a female one. I won't go so far as to say the sparring was BS- it's practice fighting, with the idea being that Vega isn't trying to take her head off. But this is the first time I can recall where the question would even need to be asked.

The short version is, it feels like the first two games were written for Shepard, and this game was written for ManShep. And while I do appreciate the greater push for FemShep in advertising, playing the game has made me somewhat cynical about why they may have done it. I think it's good, regardless of the reasons, but I kind of wonder if they were trying to lock in the FemShep fans knowing they screwed the pooch on her in-game.

I noticed this too. It felt like everyone was trying to get into my FemShep's pants, lol. So, I can't decide whether my FemShep should be flattered or creeped out. And that comment Liara's 'dad' said about her panties all being wet over me... yikes! I'm not sure who would have been more mortified, me or Liara, because I was romancing Kaidan at the time. The Vega fight bothered me too, but more on the grounds of mechanics. I'm glad they kept the spar scene for femshep because that shows that she's a strong woman. That aside, a woman has to fight differently. She's not going to give and take punches like male shep. She's going to use her legs and agility, like when Dr. Eva Core took down Kaidan (or Ash). So I really wished they had changed that up to reflect that (along with fixing that horrid gorilla run she does, lol). Basically FemShep is just superimposed on the MaleShep model, unfortunately. Maybe one of these days they'll actually change that. We move from the hips BW, maybe one of the these days you'll get it

[HolyAvenger]

Yup, straight FemShep is pretty shafted. Dunno why. Vega would've made an excellent straight LI.

[Spiffy McBang]

Mara281 wrote...

We move from the hips BW, maybe one of the these days you'll get it

Oh lord, we should not talk about how the characters move.  I didn't even want to sprint at times because I'd have to watch my squadmates run, and that was just painful.  x.x

[Mara281]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

Mara281 wrote...

And guys we need your help in this issue too because we aren’t as big of a crowd in the gaming universe as you are yet.

I usually assume my name is a dead giveaway that I'm a guy, but now that you bring it up I think it's worth it for us fellas to point that fact out in a discussion like this.

I generally play female characters in games.  I don't treat them as avatars; they're characters I'm pushing around the world.  Most people grasp this concept, I think, as it's been quite some time since anyone questioned my sexuality or simply boggled at this particular preference.  And plenty of people treat their game characters the same way.

That being the case, if Bioware recognizes that players of any gender consider story and story options critical to their gaming experience- which they obviously do, given the basis of their games- then they need to recognize that includes guys who expect to have stories of equivalent depth to tell about their playthroughs regardless of the choices they make.  Those choices start at the character creation screen.  None of the other slider bars make a difference, right?  Redhead, blond, and brunette Shepards all have the same possibilities.  So do ones with fat faces or thin, ugly mugs or lovely ones.  Gender should have no more impact on the wealth of possible experiences than any of these other traits, otherwise the player is robbed for no good reason- and that player is, in many cases, male.

Tycho from PA has routinely mentioned he has a female character.  It bears mentioning, at this point, that Penny Arcade is in large part famous because Tycho frequently has a keen grasp of what's important in the gaming world and manages to represent the gaming community as a whole very well with his posts.  That's why he's taken seriously, because he's not some mumbling ****** with no concept of what's important and what makes games work.  If he's running female characters- and he's also talked about doing so in WoW, and I would guess other games with the option as well- how many other male players are doing the same thing and expecting an equally deep game?

Which, by the way, you Bioware folks pulled off in DA 1 and 2 and Mass Effect 1 and 2.

I don't know how EA plays into this.  I don't really care.  That's company politics, and in the end all we see as players is the end result.  What I want is for what we say here to have some chance, however small it might be, of impacting that final product.  So if you're from BW and reading this, please trust me on this- the fact you guys worked in a heavy dose of equality was a boon to your other games.  But now that it's there, it's an expectation that must be met.  It's bad enough to see it so infrequently in gaming as a whole; to give it and then take it away is an order of magnitude worse.  The people who don't care about this have the rest of the gaming world to cater to them. Just make good games and they'll stick with you.  But if you fix this problem going forward, you'll have a healthy minority of the world's gamers added on to that number as ultra-loyal customers, and for the EA number crunchers, that all goes to your bottom line.

Better equality means better quality; it will never screw up your game, and can only improve it.  It helps us and you.  Make it happen.

P.S.  I had Shepard wear the dress once, specifically to go dance in Purgatory.  That's the only reason I can see for its existence.  I liked the idea of the hoodie, but it was just too informal, especially when talking to Hackett.  The basic blue outfit worked well enough, I thought, but I'll have to defer to better clothes experts on the matter.

Thank you so much for posting this Spiffy! It really helps to see this from a guy playing a girl character perspective as well. And it does make sense that better equality means better quality. Couldn't have said it better

[Babizokahh]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Yup, straight FemShep is pretty shafted. Dunno why. Vega would've made an excellent straight LI.

Yeah, i've come to really like James as a character and his interactions with Shep are great.
But looking at the conversations, the flirt, just looks like BW made him as a potential LI and got lazy among the way and decided to cut this off.  But like i said, i felt like even tho he is not a LI, we get more interactions, and more flirt with him than with our LI (at least in Kaidan's case.) and that goes for other new characters too, like Samantha and Cortez. We have a hot shower scene with Sam (not counting the "romantic scene before the end"). With Kaidan we get a couple of coffee. This made me a little upset. Don't get me wrong, i'm loving the game. But as far as romance goes, they could have improved more. I remember playing ME1 and talking with Kaidan all the time,even before he was my LI. Now I felt there are so few interactions between them. That's what bothers me the most.

[shepskisaac]

Mara281 wrote...

I know part of the issue in ME3 is that so many of the options for femshep leave. Jacob finds a new flame and Thane dies (though Thane’s death is expected from ME2). If that’s the case why didn’t you do the same with the guys? Miranda dies and Jack finds a new flame? James becomes romancable? Kaidan stays hetero? Really, why does Ashley get to keep her hetero status and Kaidan doesn’t? Not to take away from the S/S crowd or anything, but you did give them Cortez and Sam, who are both awesome characters, I loved them both to pieces (especially Cortez, might have to play male shep just to romance him!).

You're championing equality yet at the same time you're complaining that GayShep should've only got 1 option? After 2 games with ZERO love interests? Are you forreal?

[Yuqi]

IsaacShep wrote...

Mara281 wrote...

I know part of the issue in ME3 is that so many of the options for femshep leave. Jacob finds a new flame and Thane dies (though Thane’s death is expected from ME2). If that’s the case why didn’t you do the same with the guys? Miranda dies and Jack finds a new flame? James becomes romancable? Kaidan stays hetero? Really, why does Ashley get to keep her hetero status and Kaidan doesn’t? Not to take away from the S/S crowd or anything, but you did give them Cortez and Sam, who are both awesome characters, I loved them both to pieces (especially Cortez, might have to play male shep just to romance him!).

You're championing equality yet at the same time you're complaining that GayShep should've only got 1 option? After 2 games with ZERO love interests? Are you forreal?

This^

[Spiffy McBang]

Yuqi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Mara281 wrote...

I know part of the issue in ME3 is that so many of the options for femshep leave. Jacob finds a new flame and Thane dies (though Thane’s death is expected from ME2). If that’s the case why didn’t you do the same with the guys? Miranda dies and Jack finds a new flame? James becomes romancable? Kaidan stays hetero? Really, why does Ashley get to keep her hetero status and Kaidan doesn’t? Not to take away from the S/S crowd or anything, but you did give them Cortez and Sam, who are both awesome characters, I loved them both to pieces (especially Cortez, might have to play male shep just to romance him!).

You're championing equality yet at the same time you're complaining that GayShep should've only got 1 option? After 2 games with ZERO love interests? Are you forreal?

This^

What are you two talking about?  FemShep got screwed out of some very plausible romantic options, so she's asking why ManShep didn't get the same treatment.  At no point is this an argument that it actually should have happened that way; this entire business is about FemShep needing more available guys, not that ManShep has too many.

[Mara281]

Yuqi wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Mara281 wrote...

I know part of the issue in ME3 is that so many of the options for femshep leave. Jacob finds a new flame and Thane dies (though Thane’s death is expected from ME2). If that’s the case why didn’t you do the same with the guys? Miranda dies and Jack finds a new flame? James becomes romancable? Kaidan stays hetero? Really, why does Ashley get to keep her hetero status and Kaidan doesn’t? Not to take away from the S/S crowd or anything, but you did give them Cortez and Sam, who are both awesome characters, I loved them both to pieces (especially Cortez, might have to play male shep just to romance him!).

You're championing equality yet at the same time you're complaining that GayShep should've only got 1 option? After 2 games with ZERO love interests? Are you forreal?

This^

I'm not saying gay shep should have less options and I apologize if it sounded that way. It's just as unfair that guys didn't have a gay option in most of the other games but that girls have lesbian options, because shouldn't it work both ways? But the point I was trying to make there is if you have one, why not have the other?  If Ash keeps her status, why can't Kaidan? If Kaidan is bi than by principle for providing balance for ME1 players, shouldn't Ash be as well? It's a valid question to consider the balance of the relationships and how or why they are not balanced anymore. On a personal note, I would really like to have at least one human guy romance that's exclusive to the gals. Is that so wrong? That male sheps get plenty of human female relationships that are completely straight and the femsheps get one human male and he's not, that's the point. The solution isn't to take away what they already provided, but hopefully to gain some balance in the future. If James was a straight exclusive LI for femshep that's fine. The fact that there isn't one at all is what I'm arguing.

Modifié par Mara281, 13 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[shepskisaac]

Mara281 wrote...
If Kaidan is bi than by principle for providing balance for ME1 players, shouldn't Ash be as well?

ME1 players already had Liara. Available since day 1. Yes, she ain't human  (although she almost looks like one), but it's still a lesbian romance for FemShep that's been available from the beginning (you can't romance Kaidan as mShep till ME3) and is single-handedly the largest and most developed romance arc throughout the entre trilogy. How exactly would it be equal if in the end, FemShep had both Liara & Ashley from ME1 and mShep only had Kaidan from ME1?

Mara281 wrote...
The fact that there isn't one at all is what I'm arguing.

So you're putting FemShep's need for exclusive human LI before GayShep's lack of any option from ME1 and the fact that without Kaidan he would only have 1 option. You're obviously free to think it's more important, but don't be surprised that I disagree with it.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 13 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[22percent]

Except for some of the language, I agree with the original post. This is such an odd thing for the devs to miss and I want to keep supporting the topics that are bringing it up.

I already made a post in the "Zero male romantic interests for FemShep = WTF" topic with how I feel about all this, but my situation came down to this: I had two femSheps, one who romanced Thane and one who romanced Jacob. For both of those femSheps, Kaidan is dead. ME3 then takes away the Thane and Jacob romances from me. As a hetero female, a section of the game was now cut off to me. A small section, yeah, but still a fun and interesting one. So my view of the game started to gown down way before I saw the endings of the game.

[Spiffy McBang]

Isaac, are you really that determined to read "the femsheps get one human male and he's not (straight)" as "give us Kaidan all to ourselves immediately"? Especially since the very next sentence begins, "The solution isn't to take away what they already provided"? Yes, she used making Kaidan straight again as an example of what could be done in this regard. But as has also been said- repeatedly- more male partners for FemShep should have been included in the first place. If Vega was one, the problem would be solved right there. And there should have been more beyond him. (Personal opinion is that Joker and EDI are way too good together to let Shepard potentially get in the way, even though right now she can make a fake move on him in Purgatory. But he'd be another possibility.)

Bioware is capable of making a game where everyone has multiple options of either basic gender.  They've proven it time and again.  Wannabe gay ManSheps got shafted originally, and wannabe straight FemSheps are getting shafted now.  Neither is ok; the FemShep situation is under discussion now because it's related to 3, whereas the gay male one has finally been addressed.  That's all.  Fighting between us is pointless; we're not on opposite sides of this problem.

Modifié par Spiffy McBang, 13 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[Mara281]

IsaacShep wrote...

Mara281 wrote...
If Kaidan is bi than by principle for providing balance for ME1 players, shouldn't Ash be as well?

ME1 players already had Liara. Available since day 1. Yes, she ain't human  (although she almost looks like one), but it's still a lesbian romance for FemShep that's been available from the beginning (you can't romance Kaidan as mShep till ME3) and is single-handedly the largest and most developed romance arc throughout the entre trilogy. How exactly would it be equal if in the end, FemShep had both Liara & Ashley from ME1 and mShep only had Kaidan from ME1?

Mara281 wrote...
The fact that there isn't one at all is what I'm arguing.

So you're putting FemShep's need for exclusive human LI before GayShep's lack of any option from ME1 and the fact that without Kaidan he would only have 1 option. You're obviously free to think it's more important, but don't be surprised that I disagree with it.

That's true about the Liara thing, I hadn't thought about that since Kaidan and Ash are always so linked together in how they relate to Shep throughout all 3 games. Liara even feels like the cannon romance for either Shep. Regardless though, FemShep still only has 1 human male to romance as opposed to 4 human girls for manshep. And if you want to take that even further, even gay shep get 2 human guys to romance.

On your second note, the point wasn't about giving s/s guys less options, yet again. You cut off the part where I said if they had Vega as the straight LI for femshep that would have been fine. It's that we had none, and yes I suppose I would put a priority on it seeing as I am a girl, lol.

Modifié par Mara281, 13 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[TheComfyCat]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Yup, straight FemShep is pretty shafted. Dunno why. Vega would've made an excellent straight LI.

Yes, I really wish James was an option. He's awesome (and hot). I was really surprised that James wasn't a LI given how imbalanced we guessed LIs would be between dude/femShep even before the game came out (for those of us who read all the spoilers). I've heard that it's implied he hooks up with Ashley if she's not Shep's LI... is that true? Shep's not good enough though? *whines*

Overall I generally agree with the OP. It really seems like they're trying to make femShep more appealing for straight guys more than for straight women. But while I'm disappointed, this type of treatment would surprise me much more from the DA team than the ME team, given how much more care the DA team takes with these issues.

It seems like the Garrus romance was treated well, at least. Not Thane's, though. Thane's death is one thing, but the real issue it that the treatment of his romance is horrendous... Yeah, I won't even get started on that. I hadn't heard about differences in Kai and Ash's romance, so I'll keep an eye out for more info on that.

Anyway, as far as S/S and O/S equality/balance... The squadmate romances generally feel more developed than the crew member ones, so along those lines, it makes sense that Kaidan is an additional S/S option, since gay Sheps wouldn't have a squadmember option otherwise. So in this case, I don't think Kai should be compared against Ash when you're talking about balance in that department. 

[Mara281]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

Isaac, are you really that determined to read "the femsheps get one human male and he's not (straight)" as "give us Kaidan all to ourselves immediately"? Especially since the very next sentence begins, "The solution isn't to take away what they already provided"? Yes, she used making Kaidan straight again as an example of what could be done in this regard. But as has also been said- repeatedly- more male partners for FemShep should have been included in the first place. If Vega was one, the problem would be solved right there. And there should have been more beyond him. (Personal opinion is that Joker and EDI are way too good together to let Shepard potentially get in the way, even though right now she can make a fake move on him in Purgatory. But he'd be another possibility.)

Bioware is capable of making a game where everyone has multiple options of either basic gender.  They've proven it time and again.  Wannabe gay ManSheps got shafted originally, and wannabe straight FemSheps are getting shafted now.  Neither is ok; the FemShep situation is under discussion now because it's related to 3, whereas the gay male one has finally been addressed.  That's all.  Fighting between us is pointless; we're not on opposite sides of this problem.

Thanks for having my back, Spiffy

[Mara281]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

It seems like the Garrus romance was treated well, at least. Not Thane's, though. Thane's death is one thing, but the real issue it that the treatment of his romance is horrendous... Yeah, I won't even get started on that. I hadn't heard about differences in Kai and Ash's romance, so I'll keep an eye out for more info on that.

Anyway, as far as S/S and O/S equality/balance... The squadmate romances generally feel more developed than the crew member ones, so along those lines, it makes sense that Kaidan is an additional S/S option, since gay Sheps wouldn't have a squadmember option otherwise. So in this case, I don't think Kai should be compared against Ash when you're talking about balance in that department. 

I think the reason I compare them so much is because they are the virmire survivors and they share a lot of the same types of conversations as well as that they are both human LI. Comparing them comes naturally, same with as if I were comparing Tali with Garrus romances, or Miranda with Jacob. BW seemed to have a balancing system going on, at least with ME2 and the DA games where they paired up opposites, but in ME3 the balance is off. You get Cortez/Sam, Ash/Kaidan, Tali/Garrus, but that's about where the balance ends. Granted it probably could have saved a lot of trouble if the ME team had worked the romance opportunities like DA and DA2, keeping it pretty level across the board.

[TheComfyCat]

I agree that the role of the VS in the story is largely parallel, I just think that for gay Sheps to have some LI balance, they also need a squad member LI. I agree that it's weird for femShep to lose two LIs and gain none, while dudeShep loses none and gains one. I also realize it's natural to compare Ash and Kaidan. I just don't think you should in this case because gay Sheps need a squad member LI. Making Kaidan straight doesn't keep the balance, it just upsets the balance in a different way. But I really don't want to argue with you because I largely agree with your point.

What we really needed was a way to save Thane (several ways to do this were suggested in LotSB.. thanks for getting my hopes up, Bioware), and then the addition of Vega as an LI.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 13 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[shepskisaac]

Spiffy McBang wrote...

Yes, she used making Kaidan straight again as an example of what could be done in this regard. But as has also been said- repeatedly- more male partners for FemShep should have been included in the first place. If Vega was one, the problem would be solved right there.

But if Vega ain't a LI, then she wants Kaidan only for FemShep. Well, she actually did said it would've been her priority so yeah, I'm reading what I'm seeing and it looks like I read it correctly.

Spiffy McBang wrote...
Neither is ok; the FemShep situation is under discussion now because it's related to 3, whereas the gay male one has finally been addressed.

But she's not talking solely ME3. It' not even possible considering some ME3 romances need to be started in ME2. Yes, neither is OK, but seeing how GayShep was shafted for 2 games and FemShep is shafted in 1 game, FemShep still had it better. This series was unfortunately unequal from the beginning. I fully support female players to champion equality for female character in future and I'm criticizing heavily the treatement of Jacob in ME3, but I don't like the underlying tone in OP's complaint that GayShep somehow took away something from FemShep by having Kaidan be available for him. GayShep had no one in ME1 and ME2 while FemShep was having fun, don't forget about it.

[EmGo]

 Well, maybe I don't feel THAT strongly about those LI issues. But probably because all my FemSheps always grabbed Garrus. And I am very content with Garrus as LI in ME3. But still... I wanted to try Thane in ME2, however seeing that I have only one conversations with him before he dies in ME3 0.o oh, no way. I don't understand why James is out? I admit... when I heard about him few months ago I was furious ("WHat?! New one?! Give my Garrus!!"), but he turned out as a great and funny character (I love this "Lola" thing). The flirting was fun and even though I am Garrus fangirl to the core, I would like to see and try how it would look like with Vega. He's fun
They lost a great opporunity for FANTASTIC romance! I mean, come on... romance with Allers? Or romance with Traynor? I am hetero and I don't "feel" it. But James? He is much more important to the game than Allers and Traynor, he has much more lines and conversations, so... I really don't understand that really. Bu oh well, I have my Garrus 


Btw speaking of romance... I would LOVE to see romance between Javik and Liara Hah! That was so much fun seeing them arguing "during my cycle they ate flies". Javik is awesome. And he needs some love and less dying and brooding thing. Yes, I know, I know... Last Prothean, his life a constant war, asari (and the rest) is a primitive species etc... but still that would be soo much fun I soo love conversations with him and all those response to "are you really a Prothean?" from everyone:wub:



EDIT: I think there will be one more squad member (DLC). Thane's room? Well it's completely empty and since they didn't block it then... someone will come along. (I would kill for another Prothean but we all know that's impossible). And maybe he will be male... and, well. You know the rest

Modifié par EmGo, 13 mars 2012 - 12:28 .

[Rikishi141]

Problem? You said it yourself, they are the developers and it is their game to do as they wish with. More lesbian romances is always a plus though, I like it better with my femshep getting it on with Traynor instead of some guy groping her.

[Rane7685]

Why does equality need to be a mirror image. Does it really matter so much that femshep has reduced romance options. Would you be similarly outraged if it was the other way around. Its not like either option can sleep with all 8 or all 5 as the case may be. True equality would be writing a story independant of these considerations and developing something organic. Jacob moved on to someone else seemed to fit well with his story and his LI was a good match. You dont need to then go quick we need a new LI to keep the numbers equal. Thane too was going to die his story was well told. Again the writers arent then forced to invent another LI

As regarding the dress, are you similarly outraged that the brown suit is different for male and femshep. Fashion is subjective, and although I too wouldve liked femshep to have the N7 jacket but not having it is not prejudicial. You said you were fine with the one in ME2 which is almost the same skin just with a different colour

[Bluumberry]

Rane7685 wrote...

Why does equality need to be a mirror image. Does it really matter so much that femshep has reduced romance options. Would you be similarly outraged if it was the other way around. Its not like either option can sleep with all 8 or all 5 as the case may be. True equality would be writing a story independant of these considerations and developing something organic.

Exactly.

Thane too was going to die his story was well told. Again the writers arent then forced to invent another LI

I don't get why people are so upset over Thane's romance. I'd understand if it's because it was out of character, but most seem to be crying since he dies. You knew he was dying in ME2.

Anyway I personally was really happy with what we were given (maybe biased since I adored the Garrus romance) but seeing this rage leaves me really puzzled.

[Penguins]

I was never planning to romance anyone but Garrus, and I think bioware really knocked it out of the park.

But. Even while playing, I had sort of a frown on my face every time I ran into Thane and Jacob. It isn't fair that Femshep lost two of her LIs without manshep losing any of theirs. Its like saying to someone, "HAHA. Picked the wrong option!" and effectively forces people to choose from Kaidan or Garrus. It doesn't matter how good their romances are when your pool has been effectively cut in half.

[78stonewobble]

IsaacShep wrote...
This series was unfortunately unequal from the beginning.

This... and the fact that the "squad" or rather the amount of characters are limited.

I think they needed (for all the me games) 3-5 more characters onboard the normandy that we're more developed and romanceable. Though they might not have been main characters per say...

But the games are out now and in the past.

Some hope for dlc or expansions though.