45 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

I'm playing DAO and loving it - best rpg since Baldur's Gate. Thank you so much, Bioware, for listening to the fans and producing this awesome game, which is clearly a labor of love by the devs. (I watched the bonus featurettes on the bonus dvd in the collector's edition.)
 
However, I do miss clerics as a character class, especially since I usually play them.

I am currently playing a mage specializing in Creation magic, because that's as close as you can get in this game, but it's not the same, especially not from a role-playing perspective.

I get that the story is about a civilization that is in an early transition to monotheism, which is an attribute of a more advanced, technology-ready culture than a polytheistic one.

I wonder if the devs were thinking that since "deities" that actually grant power to their followers are now seen to be evil and demonic beings no matter how benign their apparent intentions (Care to be a cleric of Mouse, anyone?), and that the church in power is trying to stamp out all traces of polytheism in favor of their new, much more abstract and removed-from-mundane-life, "Maker", magically effective clerics would not exist in this world. This new monotheistic point of view makes for fascinating storytelling in a fascinating gameworld.

However, isn't it odd that the best analogues to clerics, the brothers and sisters of the Chantry, are now classed as rogues, complete with rogue skills. That doesn't make complete sense and seems odd to me.

Does anyone have any insights into why the devs got rid of the cleric class? And if there's some spoiler that's part of the story that resolves this issue that I haven't encountered yet, (I am still early in the game), please say so without revealing any details.

Otherwise, I would love to discuss this further.

[Kimberly Shaw]

You can create one if you like. Spirit Healer/Arcane Warrior wearing plate and weilding a mace!



I'm not sure why the deviated into removing the archetypal Warrior-Rogue-Mage-Priest AD&D 2nd edition sub-types. The effect it had was giving the mages too much power by having them be crowd control, damage, and healers all at once.

[marshalleck]

It's because the Maker doesn't grant magical ability, and his church, the Chantry, are dead set on keeping people with magic-wielding potential separated from the population in general. This has to do with the back story of Andraste, the Tevinter Imperium, and so on. It's all explained in the game through conversation and codex entries.

If you really want the playstyle of a traditional cleric, make a Mage and spec in Arcane Warrior and Spirit Healer.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:03 .

[Baleus]

Well, fhe the record I miss the classic cleric design also, but you can pretty easily make a Mage/Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer and customize your offensive spells and healing/buf****e and it is Very powerful. Could argue it is a cleric, just not named one.



Heavy plate, buf****e, rez ability, healing and drop some seriously powerful aoe/come. (Course no undead turnging but you can wing it )

[Kimberly Shaw]

Cold Iron runes on the mace, Baelus!

[Ginnerben]

However, isn't it odd that the best analogues to clerics, the brothers and sisters of the Chantry, are now classed as rogues, complete with rogue skills. That doesn't make complete sense and seems odd to me.

Are you basing this of Lelliana?  Because yeah, I doubt all Priests followed her path (She's a lay-sister, anyway)

[orpheus333]

Most chantry brothers and sisters are scholars and not combatents from what i've seen. Lelianna is a different case. You're classic cleric can be made with Arcane Warrior and Spirit Healer but i don't think this is what you are after.



IMO the maker and the old gods are all creatures of the fade, as magic comes from there, whether it is a direct connection to a spirit or god or a connection to the fade itself, your cleric would still be classed as a mage and at this point in Thedas's history anyone with magical talent is seen as ungodly unless controlled.



In this setting everyones ability to affect the world is drawn from the chaos of the fade. Thought itself. So the 'classic' seperation of divine and arcane magic isn't needed. It is all drawn from the same source. Perhaps in the future we might see a situation where chantry brothers and sisters could be asked to merge with a faith spirit. Similar to Wynne. But the martial aspects of the warrior priest are down to the individual brother or sister individually.



It is a nice concept to explore though.

[BelgarathMTH]

I know, Iike I said, I'm playing a mage specializing in Creation magic and will become a Spirit Healer and Arcane Warrior as soon as I find trainers for them.

My point is that I miss role-playing a cleric, and man of faith and goodness who believes in something higher and greater in humanity and serves divinity.

Also, part of my point is that I find it odd that all the religious people I'm meeting in the game are rogues.

Wouldn't it make sense that the Chantry would train mages who showed the right qualities as priests and monks/nuns? Do you think that since they encourage the belief that all magic is inherently evil unless tightly controlled, that it does not come from the Maker, and therfore that no one who is magic-sensitive is allowed to take religious orders?

I am wanting discussion of this from a story or role-playing perspective, not one of game mechanics.

@Ginnerbin, Lelianna, but also Lily.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:13 .

[marshalleck]

Anyone with any potential for magic use is carted off to the Tower for mage training. If they resist they are killed, and if they are found to be practicing outside of the Tower they are killed for being apostates. This is why there are no magical clerics.The culture of the Chantry does not tolerate magic use by its clergy. The 'why' of all this can be somewhat triangulated upon in game via conversation and codex.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Good point, Marshelleck. I will look for opportunities in this world to promote the "Creation magic comes from the Maker, and should therefore be part of the Chantry" point of view. They should be restricting magic to Creation magic, not lumping the whole thing including Healing into their "all magic is tainted" doctrine.

[Beechwell]

They wanted to make religion a matter of believe and faith, rather than a matter of certainty. I think that makes religion(s) a much more interesting subject than just having gods as powerful beings who grant favours to their followers.

I would have liked more diverse magic users, like apostates or Daelish mages, to divide magical powers between different classes, though.

Clerics, as you use the word, are typical for the D&D universe, no reason to transport them into every other fantasy setting.

[marshalleck]

Without giving away too many specifics, the anti-magic policy of the Chantry is one of many reasons to question the real meaning and purpose behind Chantry doctrine.

[BelgarathMTH]

I guess you have a point, Beechwell. I'm a stickler for symmetry of design, though. Four party members, four specializations available. Now we have four party members, three specializations available. Something about that assymetry bothers me.



I suppose I could just look at Creation and Spirit magic as one thing, and Primal and Entropy magic as the other thing.

[OgrynFlesh]

The "take him to the healer" kind of thing does come up a few times in game. Also mentions of magical healing. That suggests there are some sort of clerics. That one rather unhinged chick in the circle tower was *very* devout and could (to some extent) be convinced to use her magic for the good of mankind, make her think it was a gift from the Maker. Sort of makes her a cleric, magic from god for healing shizzle.

[marshalleck]

It's not so much a question of whether healing magic exists; it's just that it's practice is strictly controlled by the Chantry via their control by the Templars over the Circle mages.

The Chantry is more than willing to reap the benefits of magical ability and the creation of magical potions and items. They don't want it happening independently of their control.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:23 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Also...they might need a class to introduce in the expansion, no?



;-)

[orpheus333]

At this moment in Thedas's history there is no place for a magic-user to be a significant part of the chantry. They church in this case would not have a mage in way as an official member. This is due mainly to the chantrys fear of magics ability to be abused. It all comes from the same source and therefore can be equally abused no matter who you are. The closest thing to a cleric, lore wise are the templars. They have obviously have a connection to the fade through the ritual use of lyrium, otherwise they would not be able to annul its affects. Whether a Templar can extend this connection through training is another matter and is open to abuse by the circle and would require the chantry to have a heavier hand than they do already.

[marshalleck]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Also...they might need a class to introduce in the expansion, no?

;-)

Unlikely, unless they are willing to make a significant retcon to the lore.

Again, according to Chantry doctrine, the options for people with magic potential are as follows:

1) Life in the Tower as a Mage;
2) Hunted down and put to death for being an Apostate

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Ginnerben]

Lelianna, but also Lily.

Fair point.  Still, she's hardly an upstanding citizen in the circumstances you meet her  

I think both characters you raise are exceptions, generally.  

In terms of roleplaying, the group you're after is probably the Templars.  Warriors of God, and all that.  They're not traditional mages though.  

There are several reasons why the Chantry wouldn't want to make Mages into Clerics.  There is this belief that magic is unclean/unholy, and the inherent dangers of Mages becoming corrupted, both of which lead to the Chantry's desire to control the Mages.  This is based on a simple us/them dichotomy, and I think they don't want to blur the lines.  Essentially, could they trust Mages in power to control the other Mages well enough?  The Templars seem to have their fists around the throats of the Mages, but if they started moving up through the ranks of the Chantry, there could be issues.  

[BelgarathMTH]

Isn't this game wonderful - I've barely done three modules of it, and I've already been faced with an excruciating, no-easy-way-out moral dilemma, (Jowan and Lily), and been inspired to use my training in philosophy and theology to ponder the deeper meainings of magic and theism in an imaginary world! Talk about immersion!

[marshalleck]

Yeah, there certainly are opportunities for the player to break with convention, even motivations given to do so, depending on how you conceptualize your character.

[Kimberly Shaw]

I think you guys are underestimating the ability for a new class to be introduced to the lore...a cleric class wouldn't have to be retconned into the old history, they could be new to the game world after the darkspawn invasion changed things up a bit.



The bigger problem would be that spirit healers are already more than capable of healing on nightmare, and a priest class would probably need to be better than spirit healers to be arch-type priests, so its unlikely to be made.

[Baleus]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Cold Iron runes on the mace, Baelus!

Amen! You tagged the truth and beat me to the punch about the mage/SH/AW post, and ya know... the more I think about it that more cleric than alot of clerics of the past.

Belated T-day.

[Sensorie]

In terms of lore, I guess they (the Chantry and Templars) could demand the Circle to train certain mages in Creation magic exclusively, for the purpose of using them strictly as clerics. Instead of these mages merely being tightly monitored and controlled by the Chantry, they would also serve the Chantry, unlike other mages.

Modifié par Sensory, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:41 .

[RPGmom28]

I don't have any particular insights, but I agree with you.  Clerics are always my first choice in an RPG.  I have been creating cleric after cleric in the Neverwinter Nights 2 Original Campaign for three run throughs now.  Not seeing them in DA was a disappointment, as they sort of merged mages with what we used to imagine as a cleric.  They are always a fun class in DnD.  Nothing like facing an onslaught of the undead and having all or most of them drop at your feet in the face of your deity's holiness (or unholiness, as the case may be).