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Retake Mass Effect - Petition and Child's Play Donation Drive


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#7001
Nyila

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blurryhunter wrote...

Susan O'Connor made a great contribution at the end there.

"The takeaway, for me, is that if players are promised player agency, they’re going to want to see that promise delivered all the way to the (bitter) end."

That's only portion of what was said, so I opt that it be read so my quote from it won't be taken out of context, but it is a rightful statement.

I have played many games where the endings were less then satisfactory, but when I went back I realized I was reading too much into it; expecting too much as it were. I was able to pick those games back up and approach them in a manner that got me to appreciate what was created and realize that, while the ending was off the beaten path, it wasn't a 'Batman ending to a Superman game' (a phrase I've been pushing around a bit), where it's in the same universe, but just doesn't make sense.

I believe that, in this instance, everything leading up to Mass Effect 3, from the first two games, to the comments about players driving the story and influencing the ending, really factor in to what Susan said.

We were told to expect our story to drive the ending and fit with the universe so created by BioWare and the fans. What we received just doesn't fit that expectation.


That is where excess marketing hurts. EA pushes marketing to an extreme, and when you do too many interviews, make too many promises, people are gonna want those fulfilled.

#7002
blurryhunter

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leondes1 wrote...

From the article

Gary Whitta
Whitta was Editor-in-Chief of PC Gamer for four years. He wrote the film Book of Eli. Whitta is currently a story consultant and writer for Telltale’s The Walking Dead game, for which he’ll write the fourth episode.

“I’ll be interested to see how BioWare will respond to the fan reaction in terms of future content—clearly they intend to do something, but what remains to be seen. As much as it left me with many questions and ultimately feeling kind of uncomfortable, I really hope they don’t attempt to retcon or in any way “undo” the ending they presented. I’ve always felt that games like Mass Effect are all about living with the consequences of your choices, no matter what they may be, and I think BioWare should do the same thing here and stick with their original choice, trust their original creative instinct, rather than allow the fan response to cause them to second-guess themselves.

------------

Not when the choices in the end don't matter my friend :)


One of the trends I've been noticing is that no one seems to cite (a few exceptions) anything BioWare said during all of their interviews and statements. Things that were the defining reason why I chose to side with the movement after looking into the entire thing from neutral ground.

If more people really weighed the whole of it, what BioWare said verse what actually happened, I think they would be more understanding of the situation rather than just "They want the ending changed, that's not fair to BioWare!"

No. We want what they said they were going to give us. I refuse to believe that my roommate's gameplay and my gameplay being completely different and yet resolving to an identical ending, down to the colors and scenes, match anything they said we would receive in their statements.

This isn't about having endings we didn't like. This is about not having the endings they said we would. 

#7003
Nyila

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It bothers me infinitely when I see the bagillion of trailers and interviews prior to the release of a Bioware game. Also, the whole "space edition" thing was such a waste of time and resources.. Especially when one of those balloons got stuck in a tree surrounded by mountain lions. But I guess there are some happy cougars out there who can play ME3 on their Xbox now! :happy:

Modifié par Nyila, 24 mars 2012 - 04:59 .


#7004
leondes1

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Example

I wanted to see the rachni be a major factor in the final battle as was discussed by them. Instead......... nothing. I mean why even bother saving her? I got some war assets out of it but did it matter in the end?


No

#7005
Nyila

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blurryhunter wrote...

One of the trends I've been noticing is that no one seems to cite (a few exceptions) anything BioWare said during all of their interviews and statements. Things that were the defining reason why I chose to side with the movement after looking into the entire thing from neutral ground.

If more people really weighed the whole of it, what BioWare said verse what actually happened, I think they would be more understanding of the situation rather than just "They want the ending changed, that's not fair to BioWare!"

No. We want what they said they were going to give us. I refuse to believe that my roommate's gameplay and my gameplay being completely different and yet resolving to an identical ending, down to the colors and scenes, match anything they said we would receive in their statements.

This isn't about having endings we didn't like. This is about not having the endings they said we would. 


That was the whole argument behind the FTC and BBB complaints. Sure they want too far with their complaints, but in the case of videogames (which can't be returned) when a company deliberately lies, it hurts the customer a whole lot more than for other types of products.

#7006
blurryhunter

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Nyila wrote...

blurryhunter wrote...

Susan O'Connor made a great contribution at the end there.

"The takeaway, for me, is that if players are promised player agency, they’re going to want to see that promise delivered all the way to the (bitter) end."

That's only portion of what was said, so I opt that it be read so my quote from it won't be taken out of context, but it is a rightful statement.

I have played many games where the endings were less then satisfactory, but when I went back I realized I was reading too much into it; expecting too much as it were. I was able to pick those games back up and approach them in a manner that got me to appreciate what was created and realize that, while the ending was off the beaten path, it wasn't a 'Batman ending to a Superman game' (a phrase I've been pushing around a bit), where it's in the same universe, but just doesn't make sense.

I believe that, in this instance, everything leading up to Mass Effect 3, from the first two games, to the comments about players driving the story and influencing the ending, really factor in to what Susan said.

We were told to expect our story to drive the ending and fit with the universe so created by BioWare and the fans. What we received just doesn't fit that expectation.


That is where excess marketing hurts. EA pushes marketing to an extreme, and when you do too many interviews, make too many promises, people are gonna want those fulfilled.


I think it's more than just people wanting those statements upheld. I think it was a bit worse. People didn't 'want' those statements upheld. People believed BioWare already upheld them.

There's a reason I never came on here talking about how I hope the endings to Mass Effect 3 had the players choices involved or factored in. It's because I had never considered they would go in any other direction after taking into account the two games prior and everything they've said about the series.

#7007
leondes1

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Alright everyone I'm out. I am in some serious need of sleep. Barely have 2 hours ish thanks to that "nap"

Keep up the good work :)

Be civil, report trolls, not respond. If all else fails and things start to get bad, pm Stanley. I have when necessary. Don't risk yourselves, we would rather have you be here to talk then get banned.

Goodnight everyone!

#7008
blurryhunter

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leondes1 wrote...

Alright everyone I'm out. I am in some serious need of sleep. Barely have 2 hours ish thanks to that "nap"

Keep up the good work :)

Be civil, report trolls, not respond. If all else fails and things start to get bad, pm Stanley. I have when necessary. Don't risk yourselves, we would rather have you be here to talk then get banned.

Goodnight everyone!


Agreed. Night, Jason.

#7009
leondes1

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Nyila wrote...

blurryhunter wrote...

One of the trends I've been noticing is that no one seems to cite (a few exceptions) anything BioWare said during all of their interviews and statements. Things that were the defining reason why I chose to side with the movement after looking into the entire thing from neutral ground.

If more people really weighed the whole of it, what BioWare said verse what actually happened, I think they would be more understanding of the situation rather than just "They want the ending changed, that's not fair to BioWare!"

No. We want what they said they were going to give us. I refuse to believe that my roommate's gameplay and my gameplay being completely different and yet resolving to an identical ending, down to the colors and scenes, match anything they said we would receive in their statements.

This isn't about having endings we didn't like. This is about not having the endings they said we would. 


That was the whole argument behind the FTC and BBB complaints. Sure they want too far with their complaints, but in the case of videogames (which can't be returned) when a company deliberately lies, it hurts the customer a whole lot more than for other types of products.


This one I am honestly up in the air over. Is it too far if they really lied about this and mislead people? This one is hard for me to go either way. I need to see what they are going to do in april first.

It does not help in the way of them wanting to fix it, but ..... damn

Modifié par leondes1, 24 mars 2012 - 05:11 .


#7010
DrowVampyre

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Nyila wrote...

But I guess there are some happy cougars out there who can play ME3 on their Xbox now! :happy:


Oh god...wait until they get to the end!

"Canadian game developers plagued by cougar attacks!"

#7011
Nyila

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Night Leo! ^_^


blurryhunter wrote...


I think it's more than just people wanting those statements upheld. I think it was a bit worse. People didn't 'want' those statements upheld. People believed BioWare already upheld them.

There's a reason I never came on here talking about how I hope the endings to Mass Effect 3 had the players choices involved or factored in. It's because I had never considered they would go in any other direction after taking into account the two games prior and everything they've said about the series.


It's also argued that the whole game is the end. There is a certain amount of closure brought to things we came accross in the other two games. The ending was supposed to bring closure for the rest of the cast, and for the galaxy as a whole, but I guess they rushed it. My opinion of all this stays the same: I believe they were pressured into finding a way to open up to future games, and giving too many different endings was gonna compromise what would happen in the next game. It's all about money in the end, that's why I don't believe any of the "artistic integrity" argument, the ending must stay opened for future games and more money in ze pocket.

#7012
Nyila

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DrowVampyre wrote...

Nyila wrote...

But I guess there are some happy cougars out there who can play ME3 on their Xbox now! :happy:


Oh god...wait until they get to the end!

"Canadian game developers plagued by cougar attacks!"


:lol:

Well it's ok if they didn't play ME1 & 2, they weren't too emotionally involved in the series..

#7013
blurryhunter

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leondes1 wrote...

Nyila wrote...

blurryhunter wrote...

One of the trends I've been noticing is that no one seems to cite (a few exceptions) anything BioWare said during all of their interviews and statements. Things that were the defining reason why I chose to side with the movement after looking into the entire thing from neutral ground.

If more people really weighed the whole of it, what BioWare said verse what actually happened, I think they would be more understanding of the situation rather than just "They want the ending changed, that's not fair to BioWare!"

No. We want what they said they were going to give us. I refuse to believe that my roommate's gameplay and my gameplay being completely different and yet resolving to an identical ending, down to the colors and scenes, match anything they said we would receive in their statements.

This isn't about having endings we didn't like. This is about not having the endings they said we would. 


That was the whole argument behind the FTC and BBB complaints. Sure they want too far with their complaints, but in the case of videogames (which can't be returned) when a company deliberately lies, it hurts the customer a whole lot more than for other types of products.


This one I am honestly up in the air over. Is it too far if they really lied about this and mislead people? This one is hard for me to go either way. I need to see what they are going to do in april first.

It does not help in the way of them wanting to fix it, but ..... damn


It's like they say; patience is a virtue. I know I can't stop looking at my damn desktop clock. Anyhow, I'm going to see if I can't boot whoever might be using my TV to play some multiplayer on the X-box. I don't have a mic, because apparently no one felt a movement against crappy wireless headsets for the 360 was worthwhile, haha!

As I've said to some people and I'll say here; time knows all, we just get the footnotes. Patience, civility, and voicing our opinion when it's asked is the name of the game right now. They hold the cards until we find out what they're doing, we just need to keep them from thinking we'll fold just because they do.

#7014
blurryhunter

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Nyila wrote...

Night Leo! ^_^


blurryhunter wrote...


I think it's more than just people wanting those statements upheld. I think it was a bit worse. People didn't 'want' those statements upheld. People believed BioWare already upheld them.

There's a reason I never came on here talking about how I hope the endings to Mass Effect 3 had the players choices involved or factored in. It's because I had never considered they would go in any other direction after taking into account the two games prior and everything they've said about the series.


It's also argued that the whole game is the end. There is a certain amount of closure brought to things we came accross in the other two games. The ending was supposed to bring closure for the rest of the cast, and for the galaxy as a whole, but I guess they rushed it. My opinion of all this stays the same: I believe they were pressured into finding a way to open up to future games, and giving too many different endings was gonna compromise what would happen in the next game. It's all about money in the end, that's why I don't believe any of the "artistic integrity" argument, the ending must stay opened for future games and more money in ze pocket.


Yeah, I've thought about the idea that their statements were simply in reference to the game being the end of the series, not the end of the last game of the series. I've said it several times elsewhere that's it's possible that they had simply meant for the events during Mass Effect 3 to be all of the closure and conclusions they talked about, with the endings we got as just the finale. After all, it's completely understandable for a developer to see the end of a series as the last game and a player to see the end of a series as the last events of that last game.

However, there were, of course, other statements that you really couldn't look at and say they were anything but references to the definitive end of the game. One of them was even in reference to a question asked that targeted just that; the end of Mass Effect 3.

#7015
Nyila

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leondes1 wrote...

This one I am honestly up in the air over. Is it too far if they really lied about this and mislead people? This one is hard for me to go either way. I need to see what they are going to do in april first.

It does not help in the way of them wanting to fix it, but ..... damn


I think whoever filed those complaints had the right to do so since this is a free country (although I believe it is a total waste of time, the FTC has much bigger fish to fry), but I think they should have done that quietly. Coming to talk about it on the forum was a very bad move.

I wouldn't file a complaint like that simply because, even though it is a product I cannot return, I can simply learn my lesson and not buy any future products from them. They can also argue that they thought that what they delivered was what we wanted. It's not like a contractor that tears down your house and then bails on you with your money, leaving you without a roof over your head. That is a real crime.

Modifié par Nyila, 24 mars 2012 - 05:41 .


#7016
leondes1

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Nyila wrote...

leondes1 wrote...

This one I am honestly up in the air over. Is it too far if they really lied about this and mislead people? This one is hard for me to go either way. I need to see what they are going to do in april first.

It does not help in the way of them wanting to fix it, but ..... damn


I think whoever filed those complaints had the right to do so since this is a free country (although I believe it is a total waste of time, the FTC has much bigger fish to fry), but I think they should have done that quietly. Coming to talk about it on the forum was a very bad move.

I wouldn't file a complaint like that simply because, even though it is a product I cannot return, you can simply learn a lesson and not buy any future products from them. They can also argue that they thought that what they delivered was what we wanted. It's not like a contractor that tears down your house and then bails on you with your money, leaving you without a roof over your head. That is a real crime.


Good points. I just really feel if we were mislead and they in anyway did it deliberately, the should pay for that somehow. In all honestly, this PR disaster could be it. I don't mean any ill will if they didn't do it on purpose and simply couldn't meet people expectations. But somehow, based on 99% of the game being amazing to other people and myself, I just dont get how the ending could be so botched and what they said not be lies. Unless they are hiding something big.

Ok that's enough;), where the heck are my sleeping meds!

Night

#7017
Nyila

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blurryhunter wrote...

However, there were, of course, other statements that you really couldn't look at and say they were anything but references to the definitive end of the game. One of them was even in reference to a question asked that targeted just that; the end of Mass Effect 3.


I'm not defending them, but I try to understand their position as best I can. It's important to always take a step back and remember they are people, they make mistakes and have their pride which prevents them from apologizing or admitting anything is wrong.

Sorry though, I only slept 3 hours last night, I probably shouldn't even be trying to think at this point.. Good night! ^_^

#7018
Kitsudragon

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The hardest thing for anyone to do is suck it up and move on.

I speak from similar experience. I've GM'ed roleplaying games for several decades, now, and I've had times when I've either scripted together what I thought was a really fun experience, or a really epic combat event... And everyone looks at me when I drop it on them like I've suddenly grown two heads. They get upset, because I'm disregarding something they wanted, or I tried to shoehorn what was going on into something I wanted to do.

When this happens, the first instinct is to dig in the heels and force through it. After all, you get emotionally involved in what you created. And you truly believe you built something interesting.

The difference, I think, between me and a lot of what we've been hearing from Bioware, is that I've forced myself to step back and ask myself if my position was really more important than the whole game. If the story I was telling was that important to me, a screwed-up chapter that was alienating my players wasn't worth keeping going. Sometimes I had to take 5 while I rewrote a few things, or sometimes I was able to patch something together that used most of what I'd written up. But the key is to recognize that the whole story is more important than the one disagreement. They don't get up and walk out because you made a bad call. They'll respect you a hell of a lot more if you can accept that your vision wasn't as cool for your players as you thought it would be, and rewrite it to reflect what they wanted.

I think that's what Bioware has to do. They have to stop looking at the endgame furor, sit back, and consider the whole 3-game story they've been telling. Is that story more important than fighting to keep an ending your players aren't happy with? I'd say so. I'm biased, of course, but in this case, I'm one of the players who wants the GM to change the scene I'm very opposed to. I'm not going to storm off in a huff, if I think this can be resolved. And if it is resolved, I'm going to still be interested in any future games the GM wants to put together, because this one event is just that: It's a one-off. It's not like it's what this person is like all the time.

So that's my two cents' worth. If they haven't already, they should step back from the topic, and spend some time recalling the whole story. Is that more important than the fact that the players don't agree with the GM on what constitutes an "epic" ending? Again, I think that it is. That said, the key is to accept that the players and the GM have a disconnect that needs to be patched. Then fix it, and move on. There's plenty more story to tell, and what needs to be patched can be made epic.

Idea:

For the "epic" ending, try this. Add an option to the Options screen, which allows the player to select the "original" Mass Effect 3 endings, or the modified "Epic" ending. I'm not sure how you'd tie totally different endings into future DLC, but that way, you really can leave the endgame experience to the player, and add a level of choice into the game that will appease everyone. Even if the Epic endgame is as much on rails as the original one, just being able to choose between them adds a level of metagaming choice, which would be pretty unique. And it means that for those who like the existing endings as they are, nothing needs change for them.

#7019
Nyila

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I'm just worried that, if the content they add is satisfying and there is no more issue with the ending, the blame will shift towards the whiny entitled gamers for not being patient enough.

#7020
Nyila

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blurryhunter wrote...

Nyila wrote...

blurryhunter wrote...

Come to think of it, another thing that sort of bothers me, but I'm sure I'll never get the real answer to, is how many of the writers were really in the know or on board with the idea of the endings as presented in ME3?

Ruling out that 'true or not true' statement running around, the fact is, they couldn't have all looked at that and just said: that works completely. Someone, somewhere in BioWare came up with the concept of the Arrival DLC and I can't think of anyone, in that deep on a project, wouldn't at least raise a hand and go: that...seems to break what we established and for no reason at all.


I saw somewhere that Casey and Mac were the ones who made the final decisions on what would be cut out of the game. So I'm pretty sure they were the ones making all the decisions as to what went into the ending.


That would be the reference I made to the 'true or not true' statement running around.


I have no idea if this can be trusted or not, might just be a bunch of hearsay: geek.pikimal.com/2012/03/22/controversy-erupts-over-mass-effect-3-writers-forum-post-name-release/

#7021
onyx0218

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Glad to see people haven't given up yet :). Even if this does nothing, and it's all been for not, I'm still happy to be a part of this movement. It showed that gamers will, if passionate enough, ban together and do something about it.

#7022
GamerrangerX

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do people know the money they give have nothing to do with Mass effect 3 ending

#7023
blurryhunter

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Nyila wrote...

blurryhunter wrote...

However, there were, of course, other statements that you really couldn't look at and say they were anything but references to the definitive end of the game. One of them was even in reference to a question asked that targeted just that; the end of Mass Effect 3.


I'm not defending them, but I try to understand their position as best I can. It's important to always take a step back and remember they are people, they make mistakes and have their pride which prevents them from apologizing or admitting anything is wrong.

Sorry though, I only slept 3 hours last night, I probably shouldn't even be trying to think at this point.. Good night! ^_^


That's the only reason I make some of the points I do. I try to see it from as many angles as I can. It's what I did before I decided to stand by the movement's decisions about the endings and it's what I do now, so I can keep a level head about things.

#7024
Metathron80

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Good Morning, hold the line!

#7025
blurryhunter

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Good morning! I, myself, am just wrapping things up and calling it a night/morning, haha!

Make certain people keep their cool. Good night.

Modifié par blurryhunter, 24 mars 2012 - 09:20 .