72 réponses à ce sujet

[Legion64]

batlin wrote...

templarfrost wrote...

batlin wrote...

All indoctrination does is alter people's opinion, it doesn't create hallucinations. The indoctrination theory is already debunked because it involves making indoctrination some "it does whatever we want it to do" force, which it is not.

You're absolutely, entirely wrong.  That statement is absolutely, entirely false.  It does create hallucinations.  See Mass Effect 2, missing Cerberus crew.

Nope. I'm looking at the page on indocrtination on the Mass Effect wiki right now. It says nothing about creating  hallucinations.

You believe a wiki that can be edited by anyone over what the developers put in the game's own codex?

You sir have an interesting brain.

[Bring Down The Sky]

doesn't matter; the codex in ME3 specifically says indoctrination creates hallucinations

[Drake-Shepard]

hahhaha how is that a debunk?

I don't think people fully understand the indoctrination theory

heres a video



it explains it brilliantly

[Nykara]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

There are endings where there is just only the destroy option? didn't know that i always thought you get (blue) and (red) no matter what.

There are three choices. Your EMS has to be high enough to see all three, otherwise you only get 2.

I went with blue, but there was a green option for me as well.

[Ianamus]

The more war assets Shepard has the longer he has spent fighting the Reapers, and the longer he has been subjected to their influence.

Complete bull I pulled from the top of my head, but It's as good an explanation os any. I don't follow this "indoctrination" idea (I think Bioware just wrote terrible endings) but it gives them the perfect way to wriggle out of the hole they've dug for themselves should they choose to.

Sad and angry as I am, I find it almost funny that the writing was so bad it actually passes for hallucinations.

Modifié par EJ107, 15 mars 2012 - 11:30 .

[Drake-Shepard]

basically if you have a really low EMS you get the destroy option if you destroyed the collector base.

But destroying the collector base was the paragon thing to do...isn't destroying reapers presented as renegade? I here you ask. Yep. This is linked to the indoctrination theory

If you saved the collector base....then control is the option you get instead of destroy if you have a low EMS.

EMS must also represent your mental strength if its giving you more options at a higher level. Otherwise the catalyst is saying to you...you know what..your army outside isn't big enough, so I'm going to with-hold this option from you. That makes no sense.


edit.
I can continue....if your EMS is very low and you pick the correct choice -destroy reapers...The reaper mind trick still tricks you into thinking the explosion wiped out earth - the reapers indoctrination wins because it makes you lose hope and you die because of it. However if you have moderate EMS then the explosion kills only reapers. If you have very high EMS and you pick that one correct choice then you get an easter egg 3 second clip where you breath in that rubble on earth.

Now why would your EMS effect how the citadel energy wave (reaper killing one) impacts earth? Why would the size of your army outside effect the size/lethality of the reaper killing shockwave that comes out of the citadel. Because it's actually effecting your mental strength while harbinger is trying to mind-F$%^ You

The 2 other options, control and synthesis, you die anyway. you lose.

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 15 mars 2012 - 11:42 .

[bleachorange]

Lol, this disproves nothing. Shepard was on a metallic platform a great distance from Anything else when you shoot the tank. Where in that do you read 'buried beneath stone rubble'? If you think Shepard can re-enter the atmosphere and impact at terminal velocity and end up with a mountain of rubble on top of him and after all that survive, I suggest you are indoctrinated, trying to get us to give up.

Besides, if this is actually the master of the reapers supposedly embodied by the citadel, why not show up 3 years ago when Saren failed, and activate the dark space relay, and harvest the galaxy? I call BULLS***!

[shepard1038]

So Destroy= Paragon, Control= Renegade and Synthesis= neutral, right?

[SimonM72]

Watch all of this video start-to-end and read the comments.  Now tell me you don't believe.

[I TV Casualty I]

I originally thought this debunked, Indoc Theory as well, but think about this for a moment:

Shepard doesn't wake up in those endings.

Why would the Reapers spend time and energy trying to turn a man who will die from his wounds anyway? The more war assets Shep collects, the weaker the Reapers become. By the same token, Shep has more to fight for.

You have more ending choices with more war assets because the Reapers are placing a higher and higher priority on indoctrinating Shep. To put it simply, more war assets = Shep stronger, Reapers weaker. Less war assets = Shep more likely to die anyway, so why try to indoctrinate him in his final moments? They would let him die with a vision of his final goal:  destroying the Reapers. He's still dead, why waste the effort trying to indoctrinate him?

Try to think of it from the Reaper's perspective. As their victory becomes less and less certain, they present Shep with more and more deception to distract him from his goal and seduce him to indoctrination. He becomes an increasingly valuable war asset to the Reapers themselves.

The Catalyst/Harbinger lies to Shepard. He is trying to dissuade him from having enough resolve to destroy the Reapers, and does this by striking right to the heart of what makes Shepard a true hero:  the loyalty of his friends (the Geth/Legion and EDI in this case). This is also done by presenting two options that "seem" better/more tempting, BUT require Shep to sacrifice himself in the process. This is all part of the indoctrination process.

By choosing the Destory ending, Shep proves (to the Reapers and TO HIMSELF) that he still has the resolve to destory the Reapers by any means necessary. He wakes up, resisting the indoctrination process.

Modifié par I TV Casualty I, 16 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[shepard1038]

I TV Casualty I wrote...

I originally thought this debunked, Indoc Theory as well, but think about this for a moment:

Shepard doesn't wake up in those endings.

Why would the Reapers spend time and energy trying to turn a man who will die from his wounds anyway? The more war assets Shep collects, the weaker the Reapers become. By the same token, Shep has more to fight for.

You have more ending choices with more war assets because the Reapers are placing a higher and higher priority on indoctrinating Shep. To put it simply, more war assets = Shep stronger, Reapers weaker. Less war assets = Shep more likely to die anyway, so why try to indoctrinate him in his final moments? They would let him die with a vision of his final goal:  destroying the Reapers. He's still dead, why waste the effort trying to indoctrinate him?

Try to think of it from the Reaper's perspective. As their victory becomes less and less certain, they present Shep with more and more deception to distract him from his goal and seduce him to indoctrination. He becomes an increasingly valuable war asset to the Reapers themselves.

The Catalyst/Harbinger lies to Shepard. He is trying to dissuade him from having enough resolve to destroy the Reapers, and does this by striking right to the heart of what makes Shepard a true hero:  the loyalty of his friends (the Geth/Legion and EDI in this case). This is also done by presenting two options that "seem" better/more tempting, BUT require Shep to sacrifice himself in the process. This is all part of the indoctrination process.

By choosing the Destory ending, Shep proves (to the Reapers and TO HIMSELF) that he still has the resolve to destory the Reapers by any means necessary. He wakes up, resisting the indoctrination process.

But that would mean that Shepard didn't do anything. It maybe also that what he saw was actually happening, but
they were trying to make him chose the other two endings. Just speculating.

[I TV Casualty I]

shepard1038 wrote...
But that would mean that Shepard didn't do anything. It maybe also that what he saw was actually happening, but
they were trying to make him chose the other two endings. Just speculating.

Contintuing speculation:

Maybe he didn't do anything.

He could have just died in Harbinger's beam unless you had 4000+ assets (weakening the Reapers enough to survive the blast) and chose the Red ending (in other words, found the will to destroy the Reapers).

Meaning, if the above two conditions were not met, the "ending" was his final thoughts before bleeding out/giving up.

Modifié par I TV Casualty I, 16 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[shepskisaac]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

There are endings where there is just only the destroy option? didn't know that i always thought you get control and destroy no matter what.

Yes. On low EMS score, the ending is automatically determined by Collector Base decision.

[SimonM72]

shepard1038 wrote...

I TV Casualty I wrote...

I originally thought this debunked, Indoc Theory as well, but think about this for a moment:

Shepard doesn't wake up in those endings.

Why would the Reapers spend time and energy trying to turn a man who will die from his wounds anyway? The more war assets Shep collects, the weaker the Reapers become. By the same token, Shep has more to fight for.

You have more ending choices with more war assets because the Reapers are placing a higher and higher priority on indoctrinating Shep. To put it simply, more war assets = Shep stronger, Reapers weaker. Less war assets = Shep more likely to die anyway, so why try to indoctrinate him in his final moments? They would let him die with a vision of his final goal:  destroying the Reapers. He's still dead, why waste the effort trying to indoctrinate him?

Try to think of it from the Reaper's perspective. As their victory becomes less and less certain, they present Shep with more and more deception to distract him from his goal and seduce him to indoctrination. He becomes an increasingly valuable war asset to the Reapers themselves.

The Catalyst/Harbinger lies to Shepard. He is trying to dissuade him from having enough resolve to destroy the Reapers, and does this by striking right to the heart of what makes Shepard a true hero:  the loyalty of his friends (the Geth/Legion and EDI in this case). This is also done by presenting two options that "seem" better/more tempting, BUT require Shep to sacrifice himself in the process. This is all part of the indoctrination process.

By choosing the Destory ending, Shep proves (to the Reapers and TO HIMSELF) that he still has the resolve to destory the Reapers by any means necessary. He wakes up, resisting the indoctrination process.

But that would mean that Shepard didn't do anything. It maybe also that what he saw was actually happening, but
they were trying to make him chose the other two endings. Just speculating.

Sure it did, the entire battle was in his head, it just took the forms and choices you saw as a visual representation for you to see what he was dreaming.  He is fighting the Indocrimation in his head and he is either tricked into 'giving himself' as you hear Harbinger say or he resists mentally depicted by the destroy path defeating the indocrination.

[Drake-Shepard]

shepard1038 wrote...

So Destroy= Paragon, Control= Renegade and Synthesis= neutral, right?

No the destroy ending is meant to look renegade but its not. Thats indoctrination tricking you.

control - how illusive man was corrupted.

synthesis - how saren was ruined....remember all that metal stuff on his face

destroy = you are not swayed by the reaper indoctrination

This is all happening in your head as your lying in the rubble after harbinger's beam almost hits you.
Remember just before you get up you hear 'nobody made it...everyone was decimated'

Thats probably you hearing your radio while your lying there in your weakened state as the indoctrination trying to take advantage


And the EMS effects your mental strength either directly or by making the reapers to busy to indoctrinate you with full concentration. Not sure on that part.

But it explains why EMS effects your choices available (low ems means only 1 or 2)...otherwise the catalyst is saying,,,you military outside isn't impressive enough i will with hold an option. That makes no sense.

Also explains why choosing destroy reapers with low ems results in earth being destroyed but high ems results in only reapers. If your EMS is too low even the correct choice makes you lose as the reaper indoctrination can still overcome you.
If you do not beleive he was in a mental indoctrination battle then the energy explosion kills things depending on the size of your army outside? Nope, that makes the least sense

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 16 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[TheIdiocyWizard]

The line, it is ending.

Seriously though, why wasn't this brought up on the Indoc thread in the spoilers forum?

[edrst10]

That might perhaps disprove the theory, but there are arguments that could be made against it. Shepard wakes up only if he has accumulated enough war resources (I belieave you need somewhere from 4,000 to 5,000 to see that "taking a breath cut scene), so it could be argued that when resources are very low (the only way to get only one alternative) the reapers don't even need to indoctrinate Shepard, he is no threat and the fleet is no threat, so why the ruse. Just a possibility but it does pose a definite problem to the theory.

[Daedalus1773]

 The main reason the Indoctrination Theory is wrong:

If you finish the game w/ a very low War Assets rating, the ONLY CHOICE the star-child gives you is to destroy the Reapers.

So ... the Reapers are indoctrinating you so that if you show up totally unprepared, your only choice is to destroy the Reapers?

Theory fail.

[shepskisaac]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

If you finish the game w/ a very low War Assets rating, the ONLY CHOICE the star-child gives you is to destroy the Reapers.

That is if you destroyed Collector Base. Otherwise, your only choice is Control

[Daedalus1773]

IsaacShep wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

If you finish the game w/ a very low War Assets rating, the ONLY CHOICE the star-child gives you is to destroy the Reapers.

That is if you destroyed Collector Base. Otherwise, your only choice is Control

Interesting! I only saw the video on Youtube, didn't know how the original poster got there.

The point stands that Indoctrination Theory makes no sense, however.

Modifié par Daedalus1773, 16 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[Alexraptor1]

I am of the notion that its indoctrination and a dream, Shepards unconcious mind battling to wake up.
Why? because the best destroy ending has Shepard waking up in a pile of concrete rubble... and the same wind that is howling on earth can be heard.
And the breath he draws is also one of suddenly regaining conciousness.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hallucination is the only answer that makes sense.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

The only way to get this ending is to do so poorly on galactic readiness that you die anyways.

[BuRnInICE]

Alexraptor1 wrote...

I am of the notion that its indoctrination and a dream, Shepards unconcious mind battling to wake up.
Why? because the best destroy ending has Shepard waking up in a pile of concrete rubble... and the same wind that is howling on earth can be heard.
And the breath he draws is also one of suddenly regaining conciousness.

This is the same notion i have as well. Unless it is Shepard surviving after pieces of the Citadel fell to earth.

[BuRnInICE]

11:55 onwards - Boy (indoctrination) is destroyed as soon as the red conduit is destroyed.
This answers my question of why the boy calls himself "We and Us". I am now convinced that the Catalyst is Harbinger or the Reaper AI Core. That you are hallucinating.

You then wake up on the ground outside once it is destroyed (probably not really destroyed, but harbinger realises he can't win in your mind)

The player has almost been indoctrinated throughout the series (Me2 and 3). I'm starting to think we have been fooled very cleverly. It's amazing.

Modifié par BuRnInICE, 16 mars 2012 - 04:39 .