283 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

Rane7685 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Think the issue is that, for the angry women at least, is that gaming still relies on the male power fantasy; where men are are depicted as handsome and strong and women are depicted as sexy and available.

With EDI who isn't a salacious sex-bot, it does her a disservice.

FemShep hardly conforms to this trope. I can kind of see your point but I still believe availability is conveyed more through dialogue. Look I cant defend every decision and I wont pretend its an even split men do care more about looks than women generally bu we care less about money and status in our partners. Nevertheless the men do conform to a sexual ideal. You cant really say that the tall statuesque man that ladies would admire is purely for the guy's benefit. Im sure there are plenty of guys who would like the hot chick to fall for their average jo protagonist. I think leisure suit larry focussed on that

Actually she, Shepard, does, there was basically a beauty pageant to pick her new face.

I agree the men are handsome/sexy, this again plays to the male power fantasy.  It isn't a bad thing per se, most action movies follow this same angle.  Shepard, thankfully, is not hyper-sexualized but I can see how some people might be put off by chaacters like EDI or the Asari...

For me it isn't a big deal but the issue exists.

[Rane7685]

Rane7685 wrote...

Dollymixtures wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

Dollymixtures wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

EDI was awesome if you were instantly put off by her ****** (which I didnt even notice) then you are maligning a character for her appearance just as others love her for her appearance its not really different. People like looking at attractive things. Have you seen the default ManShep, Im straight and even I think he is hot lol. This argument is getting tired yes the women in games conform to an aesthetic ideal but so do the guys almost every protagonist Ive ever played as has been an attractive male whether it is Sheploo, Nathan Drake, or any of the others.

Where is your outrage at Jacob, or Vegas ridiculously chiselled torsos. You say the women in video games are ridiculously proportioned but so are the men. For christs sake Sheploo is modelled after one of the most successful male models ever. It really sucks that you would ignore EDI who was an awesome character before AND after she got a body.

Yes, but to be fair manShep looks the way he does so that male gamers can feel and look *cool* when they play him. If they had stuck male gamers with an overweight, gravy-stained avatar, I doubt the ME franchise would've been as popular.

When discussing Jacob, I would agree he was created to pander to female fans, but he's not obscenely dressed, nor does every other character on the Normandy remark on how attractive and "sexy" he is. As for James, he's not even a romance option, and I would be inclined to believe he was placed in the game as a 'bromance' option for manShep more than as eyecandy for the ladies who play the game. He fits the Gear of War ideal rather than that of a 'pretty-boy'.

i find it a bit hypocritical to say female characters are over sexualized, but then say all the overly attractive male characters with perfect chiseled bodies are for male players. come on.

sheploo is a total pretty boy. if he was really in the military he'd get mocked for it too, probably get called prettyboy constantly. you mention gears of war. guess what? marcus is ugly as sin, has a massive scar on one side of his face. so yeah.

sex sells, its appealing. you can't complain about a female being overly sexualized then say its ok when every male character is overly sexualized too.

But that's the thing, I don't think any of the males in ME are over-sexualized. You can make an argument that they tried with Jacob, but his romance played out weirdly because of it. The flirting between him and femShep reminded me of a scene from The Graduate. Despite the pandering, Jacob ended up as one of the least popular romance options.

Sheploo, I agree is 'pretty', but I can't understand how that would've been done for my, or any other female-gamer's benefit, because we are unlikely to play him, and thus see him outside of marketing.

And James isn't particularly pretty. He's scarred, mohawked and you could use his brow as a launch-pad. In fact, when I first saw him I found him to be a bit 'pug-like' facially, and it took time for me to develop any attraction to his appearance. I would say getting to know his character is what made him attractive to me. As it is, and I may be in the minority on this, I don't find his physical bulk remotely appealing. I would suggest his size is used to radiate a sense of toughness rather than an attempt to make him overly sexy.

I dont seem to be communicating well let me try this; People, both male and female, like pretty things there are tonnes of studies on this. You get better court verdicts if you are pretty etc etc. Sheploo was not made attractive to appeal to guys. He is made attractive to appeal to people regardless of sex. Game characters conform to a aesthetic ideal because of this feature of the human condition. Both the females AND males represent this.

This is not to say gamer-girls (the players) arent done injustices by devs. Hyper-sexualised personalities is a different thing entirely, although occasionally it can work (I loved DA2 Isabella). My point is attractive women is not a slap at gaming girls its a reflection of what humans in general value.

As an aside I actually know of a few threads devoted to gamer girls that ONLY play Manshep but thats largely immaterial. 

[clonedoriginzero]

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

[Rane7685]

Naltair wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Think the issue is that, for the angry women at least, is that gaming still relies on the male power fantasy; where men are are depicted as handsome and strong and women are depicted as sexy and available.

With EDI who isn't a salacious sex-bot, it does her a disservice.

FemShep hardly conforms to this trope. I can kind of see your point but I still believe availability is conveyed more through dialogue. Look I cant defend every decision and I wont pretend its an even split men do care more about looks than women generally bu we care less about money and status in our partners. Nevertheless the men do conform to a sexual ideal. You cant really say that the tall statuesque man that ladies would admire is purely for the guy's benefit. Im sure there are plenty of guys who would like the hot chick to fall for their average jo protagonist. I think leisure suit larry focussed on that

Actually she, Shepard, does, there was basically a beauty pageant to pick her new face.

I agree the men are handsome/sexy, this again plays to the male power fantasy.  It isn't a bad thing per se, most action movies follow this same angle.  Shepard, thankfully, is not hyper-sexualized but I can see how some people might be put off by chaacters like EDI or the Asari...

For me it isn't a big deal but the issue exists.

FemSheps beauty pageant was to pick the hairstyle not the whole face bu tI meant the available part of your OP. FemSheps personality renegade or paragon (or mixed) never stuck me as vacuous or sexualised. 

The issue is really about how much we value appearance in general and not that devs are sexist/misogynist as it is clear that these  superficial traits are endemic throughout video games regardless of gender

[Rane7685]

Ergh would love to chat about this more but its late and I gtg to bed hopefully this thread is alive tomorrow cause I love the discussion. If I can leave with this; dont write edi off because of her looks she is an awesome character incredibly endearing you will be missing out

Modifié par Rane7685, 13 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[clonedoriginzero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

No, even worse, appealing to a male power fantasy, look at the top of the page.

Some people are determined to be victims, aren't they.

yeah, its ridiculous. if the did a facial scan of a super model for femshep, then altered her body to over sexualized degrees. then i popped in and said "they're just palying to a female power fantasy, what female doesnt want to be super attractive, sexy, and strong?" they'd rip my head off for beign sexist.

the hypocracy int his thread is disgusting.

[mauro2222]

Rane7685 wrote...

So Jacob in ME2's almost latex body suit wasnt showing anything off? Wh about the salarian dalatress, or the krogan female Eve? were they overly sexualised

Actually... nope.

He has armor in his chest and crotch, and his ass is so tiny that when he turns that circular thing on his back is the only thing wich takes my concentration.

[lyssalu]

Gexora wrote...

listen, at first I was kinda repulsed by this too (and by EDI's "naked" appearance) but I can understand why they went there. Overall? It's certainly not the reason to flame the character, who is, actually, deep, caring, interesting and awesome

talking about edi's vagina is not flaming the character

edi is not this body

this body is repulsive and the implications are disturbing

[lyssalu]

Rane7685 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Think the issue is that, for the angry women at least, is that gaming still relies on the male power fantasy; where men are are depicted as handsome and strong and women are depicted as sexy and available.

With EDI who isn't a salacious sex-bot, it does her a disservice.

FemShep hardly conforms to this trope. I can kind of see your point but I still believe availability is conveyed more through dialogue. Look I cant defend every decision and I wont pretend its an even split men do care more about looks than women generally bu we care less about money and status in our partners. Nevertheless the men do conform to a sexual ideal. You cant really say that the tall statuesque man that ladies would admire is purely for the guy's benefit. Im sure there are plenty of guys who would like the hot chick to fall for their average jo protagonist. I think leisure suit larry focussed on that

Actually she, Shepard, does, there was basically a beauty pageant to pick her new face.

I agree the men are handsome/sexy, this again plays to the male power fantasy.  It isn't a bad thing per se, most action movies follow this same angle.  Shepard, thankfully, is not hyper-sexualized but I can see how some people might be put off by chaacters like EDI or the Asari...

For me it isn't a big deal but the issue exists.

FemSheps beauty pageant was to pick the hairstyle not the whole face bu tI meant the available part of your OP. FemSheps personality renegade or paragon (or mixed) never stuck me as vacuous or sexualised. 

The issue is really about how much we value appearance in general and not that devs are sexist/misogynist as it is clear that these  superficial traits are endemic throughout video games regardless of gender

nah man there was a whole facebook campaign about her face, initially, and when the blonde one won because she had the prettiest face people raged because nerds fetishize redheads

the PoC ofc had the least amount of votes,

[Gunslinger01101]

syllogi wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

Yes, make the sexualization equal or don't do it at all.
Bioware knows that the female fanbase for their games is large and vocal, they have little excuse now to pander to straight males almost exclusively.

The sexualisation is equal. Have you seen Jacob or Vegas chest. For ****s sake Sheploo is modelled after one of the most successful male models ever. When was the lat time you played as a male protagonist that was ugly. If you can even name one how many ugly ones can you name relative to the attractive ones. 

Yes women in games conform to an aesthetic ideal but you are kidding yourself if you think the males in games are an accurate representation of the average male

When I'm forced to look at the outline of dude packages in these games, please come back with that argument.  Developers would never deliberately make male characters who are "sexy" first and everything else taking a backseat.  Jacob and Vega might be easy on the eyes for ladies, but that's secondary to making them look "buff" and "manly" so that male players will approve of them.  Jack's erect nipples don't make players feel more confident about her abilities.  EDI's metal labial folds aren't an asset to my team.

While I don't deny that female objectification occurs, what you are doing is saying "Ours is worse." Guess what? It isn't. Male objectification is a different kind of objectification. It is not as physical as objectification of women (the physical aspect is still there, see jacob, james, and shepard himself, hell see even mass effect's own fanboy conrad vernor. He's basically a hulking stud by real life standards. If ever there were a male character to make "real" looking, he was it.) Anyway, off track, what I was saying is that MALE objectification occurs in the form of perfectly chiseled jaws, symmetrical faces, and their characterization. I mean how many dark and brooding men do we really need? Everyone's got a bit of it. You don't see many dark and brooding LADIES out there, (except maybe jack, who was more not so much broody as violent). And by the by, to say that they made Jacob and James 'buff" in order for GUYS to find them acceptable? Sorry, no. I like my hero to be strong-but-wiry, commander shepard's look is on the upper threshold of that. Had James' body type been on shepard? -50% to character identification.

In sum, don't belittle that men are objectified and completely mis-representated in all fiction, especially main stream epic fantasy/sci-fi. (parting note: last time a scientist rather than a military man was the main character?.........Half-life?)

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 06:18 .

[lyssalu]

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Modifié par lyssalu, 13 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Gunslinger01101]

mauro2222 wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

So Jacob in ME2's almost latex body suit wasnt showing anything off? Wh about the salarian dalatress, or the krogan female Eve? were they overly sexualised

Actually... nope.

He has armor in his chest and crotch, and his ass is so tiny that when he turns that circular thing on his back is the only thing wich takes my concentration.

TBH the reason the other species females look like that is because they didn't feel like designing a female for these species that wasn't just the male with boobs on. Look at Asari and Quarians. I think Quarians are the only ones that have both, and thats only because they just used the human dichotomy there.

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

Modifié par lyssalu, 13 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

Lol, furthest thing from a dudebro you could possibly imagine. Try again. You're the one on an internet forum calling people nerds, when I see you own Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II (which sucked, btw), ME2, and ME3. Hypocrite much? Oh also, you don't have a monopoly on thought. I mean you're kind of acting like an ivory tower elitist, but then you don't show the intelligence for that. More like a Cordelia from Buffy reading the script of an Ivory Tower Elitist. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your ridiculous modes of thought.

Oh, and btw, the statement that "Men can't be objectified" basically lost you all credibility right off the bat. You = ignored. Enjoy! Might want to use your brain and think about things, and use your own words and arguments before linking to some crap no one is going to look at.

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

Lol, furthest thing from a dudebro you could possibly imagine. Try again. You're the one on an internet forum calling people nerds, when I see you own Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II (which sucked, btw), ME2, and ME3. Hypocrite much? Oh also, you don't have a monopoly on thought. I mean you're kind of acting like an ivory tower elitist, but then you don't show the intelligence for that. More like a Cordelia from Buffy reading the script of an Ivory Tower Elitist. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your ridiculous modes of thought.

Oh, and btw, the statement that "Men can't be objectified" basically lost you all credibility right off the bat. You = ignored. Enjoy! Might want to use your brain and think about things, and use your own words and arguments before linking to some crap no one is going to look at.

this boy is a joke

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...



this boy is a joke

Oh look, a David Tenant .gif, how nice. He's a great actor. He's Scottish too. Wait, what was your point? Also, who are you talking to with that? Oh, no one? Because you basically insulted 90% of the people in the thread? Kthxbai.

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

Lol, furthest thing from a dudebro you could possibly imagine. Try again. You're the one on an internet forum calling people nerds, when I see you own Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II (which sucked, btw), ME2, and ME3. Hypocrite much? Oh also, you don't have a monopoly on thought. I mean you're kind of acting like an ivory tower elitist, but then you don't show the intelligence for that. More like a Cordelia from Buffy reading the script of an Ivory Tower Elitist. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your ridiculous modes of thought.

Oh, and btw, the statement that "Men can't be objectified" basically lost you all credibility right off the bat. You = ignored. Enjoy! Might want to use your brain and think about things, and use your own words and arguments before linking to some crap no one is going to look at.

this boy is a joke

Oh look, a David Tenant .gif, how nice. He's a great actor. He's Scottish too. Wait, what was your point? Also, who are you talking to with that? Oh, no one? Because you basically insulted 90% of the people in the thread? Kthxbai.

i thought you were ignoring me 

who am i talking to?

who are you talking to

what's going on man you need to chill

go cry about how much women are oppressing you

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...


i thought you were ignoring me 

who am i talking to?

who are you talking to

what's going on man you need to chill

go cry about how much women are oppressing you

Didn't say a word about women  oppressing me. I'm in a happy marriage with a woman that respects me and who I respect. I did say something about women not being the only ones objectified in culture, esp. in this particular slice of culture. You claimed that was impossible, in fact you said "Men can't be objectified." So lets get back to that, you claim that, and if anyone says anything you don't like, you insult them and mock them. Wow, I hope you don't act that way in real life. If you do I bet I know why you think you are oppressed by "the man." Seriously, get back to the topic, rather than the ad hominem attacks (that means against the person, rather than the idea). You make the above statement, how do you defend or support that? Sorry what? Any reasonable person reading that just pegged you as an internet idiot, trolling, or something. What's going on is you are acting like a jackass on the internet, and I'm calling you on it.

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[syllogi]

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

[MACharlie1]

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

Ever heard of Bat nipples? 

[Gunslinger01101]

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

As I said there are other aspects to it. I also NEVER stated that that particular thing wasn't horribly offensive (I don't like it at all), nor that that particular thing is not worse than a chiseled jaw. You can keep your straw man arguments for yourself, I don't need them thanks. In other words, don't put words in my mouth.

[Cuddlezarro]

MACharlie1 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

Ever heard of Bat nipples? 

that movie doesnt exist