283 réponses à ce sujet

[Gunslinger01101]

And to get it back on track, I objected to the claim that men are made big and bulky and to be macho and from the military to appease other man. That's complete B.S., and just as bad a generalization as saying "but labia exist in real life so...."

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

Lol, furthest thing from a dudebro you could possibly imagine. Try again. You're the one on an internet forum calling people nerds, when I see you own Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II (which sucked, btw), ME2, and ME3. Hypocrite much? Oh also, you don't have a monopoly on thought. I mean you're kind of acting like an ivory tower elitist, but then you don't show the intelligence for that. More like a Cordelia from Buffy reading the script of an Ivory Tower Elitist. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your ridiculous modes of thought.

Oh, and btw, the statement that "Men can't be objectified" basically lost you all credibility right off the bat. You = ignored. Enjoy! Might want to use your brain and think about things, and use your own words and arguments before linking to some crap no one is going to look at.

this boy is a joke

Oh look, a David Tenant .gif, how nice. He's a great actor. He's Scottish too. Wait, what was your point? Also, who are you talking to with that? Oh, no one? Because you basically insulted 90% of the people in the thread? Kthxbai.

i thought you were ignoring me 

who am i talking to?

who are you talking to

what's going on man you need to chill

go cry about how much women are oppressing you

Didn't say a word about women  oppressing me. I'm in a happy marriage with a woman that respects me and who I respect. I did say something about women not being the only ones objectified in culture, esp. in this particular slice of culture. You claimed that was impossible, in fact you said "Men can't be objectified." So lets get back to that, you claim that, and if anyone says anything you don't like, you insult them and mock them. Wow, I hope you don't act that way in real life. If you do I bet I know why you think you are oppressed by "the man." Seriously, get back to the topic, rather than the ad hominem attacks (that means against the person, rather than the idea). You make the above statement, how do you defend or support that? Sorry what? Any reasonable person reading that just pegged you as an internet idiot, trolling, or something. What's going on is you are acting like a jackass on the internet, and I'm calling you on it.

i linked you to a video and you dismissed it bro



submit to matriarchy 

[syllogi]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

As I said there are other aspects to it. I also NEVER stated that that particular thing wasn't horribly offensive (I don't like it at all), nor that that particular thing is not worse than a chiseled jaw. You can keep your straw man arguments for yourself, I don't need them thanks. In other words, don't put words in my mouth.

You're the one using a strawman by bring up an issue that is completely separate from EDI's horrible sexbot body.
Male characters are idealized, and made attractive, just as female characters are...that has nothing to do with being forced to look at a model ingame that would be considered offensive and possibly pornographic in the workplace.

Since nobody else is answering me, and defending your right to shiny metal boobs is apparently a hill you wish to die on, can you explain to me why it's cool for women to feel uncomfortable by being exposed to borderline pornographic images, when they just want to play a third person shooter with a story?

Modifié par syllogi, 13 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...


i linked you to a video and you dismissed it bro



submit to matriarchy 

Because you linked to something and basically said "ur dumb read a book, this video says what I think and so therefore I'm right" instead of making your own argument, perhaps condensing what is contained in that video, about why what you said is true. I could do the same thing. I could go out right now and find an informative video on why male objectification is possible, exists, and is prevalent in videogames, AND is very, very bad. I could probably link you a dozen. That doesn't make me any more right. Why should I bother watching your video when you haven't seemed to bother using original thought?

Matriarchy? I see the problem now. Your need to dominate others is just a manifestation of your inner insecurity. Guess what? I don't need your domination, and I don't want it. I also don't need to dominate others just to feel good. Just as bad as the Misogynists.

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 07:00 .

[clonedoriginzero]

woah what happened here while i was gone? rofl.

[Gunslinger01101]

syllogi wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

As I said there are other aspects to it. I also NEVER stated that that particular thing wasn't horribly offensive (I don't like it at all), nor that that particular thing is not worse than a chiseled jaw. You can keep your straw man arguments for yourself, I don't need them thanks. In other words, don't put words in my mouth.

You're the one using a strawman by bring up an issue that is completely separate from EDI's horrible sexbot body.
Male characters are idealized, and made attractive, just as female characters are...that has nothing to do with being forced to look at a model ingame that would be considered offensive and possibly pornographic in the workplace.

Since nobody else is answering me, and defending your right to shiny metal boobs is apparently a hill you wish to die on, can you explain to me why it's cool for women to feel uncomfortable by being exposed to borderline pornographic images, when they just want to play a third person shooter with a story?

I'll stop you right after your first sentence and refer you back to the post I originally replied to. See that? See that other person making an argument that I responded to? Yeah, thats the very opposite of straw man. What you JUST DID in your second paragraph? THATS a straw man. NO WHERE did I say I have a RIGHT to shiny metal boobs, or that it is COOL for women to feel uncomfortable. So. yeah. Learn what the phrase means I guess? Fight with people who actually disagree with you?

[MACharlie1]

syllogi wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

As I said there are other aspects to it. I also NEVER stated that that particular thing wasn't horribly offensive (I don't like it at all), nor that that particular thing is not worse than a chiseled jaw. You can keep your straw man arguments for yourself, I don't need them thanks. In other words, don't put words in my mouth.

You're the one using a strawman by bring up an issue that is completely separate from EDI's horrible sexbot body.
Male characters are idealized, and made attractive, just as female characters are...that has nothing to do with being forced to look at a model ingame that would be considered offensive and possibly pornographic in the workplace.

Since nobody else is answering me, and defending your right to shiny metal boobs is apparently a hill you wish to die on, can you explain to me why it's cool for women to feel uncomfortable by being exposed to borderline pornographic images, when they just want to play a third person shooter with a story?

I think that depends on your definition of pornagraphic. 

A womans...ladyparts showing through her clothing is borderline pornagraphic. But would a man's package also be considered pornagraphic?

Unless we see either in full HD and in a porngraphic manner (there is such thing as artistic nudity - open up PornHub and the Musuem of Metropolitan Art website in different tabs and then compare) then it's not.   

[Gunslinger01101]

clonedoriginzero wrote...

woah what happened here while i was gone? rofl.

Well one person thinks they own thought, and the internet, and probably my genitals, and the other doesn't really get what a 'straw man' argument is.

[lyssalu]

[quote]Gunslinger01101 wrote...

[quote]lyssalu wrote...

[quote]Gunslinger01101 wrote...

[quote]lyssalu wrote...

[quote]Gunslinger01101 wrote...

[quote]lyssalu wrote...

[quote]Gunslinger01101 wrote...

[quote]lyssalu wrote...

[quote]Gunslinger01101 wrote...

[quote]lyssalu wrote...

[quote]clonedoriginzero wrote...

ok so basically, according to this thread. when they over sexualize a female character, its sexist and wrong.

but when they do it with a male character, its ok?

wtf?[/quote]

lol you can't objectify a man why don't you try opening up a book nerd

[/quote]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or dumb.[/quote]

lmao look at this dudebro trying to do feminist and social theory

the things done to men in fiction and media are meant to appeal to men

there's a really educational video about what you've inaccurately termed "male objectification" here -- i'd suggest educating yourself if you want to talk about it

[/quote]


Lol, furthest thing from a dudebro you could possibly imagine. Try again. You're the one on an internet forum calling people nerds, when I see you own Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II (which sucked, btw), ME2, and ME3. Hypocrite much? Oh also, you don't have a monopoly on thought. I mean you're kind of acting like an ivory tower elitist, but then you don't show the intelligence for that. More like a Cordelia from Buffy reading the script of an Ivory Tower Elitist. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to your ridiculous modes of thought.

Oh, and btw, the statement that "Men can't be objectified" basically lost you all credibility right off the bat. You = ignored. Enjoy! Might want to use your brain and think about things, and use your own words and arguments before linking to some crap no one is going to look at.[/quote]



this boy is a joke



[/quote]

Oh look, a David Tenant .gif, how nice. He's a great actor. He's Scottish too. Wait, what was your point? Also, who are you talking to with that? Oh, no one? Because you basically insulted 90% of the people in the thread? Kthxbai.[/quote]

i thought you were ignoring me 

who am i talking to?

who are you talking to

what's going on man you need to chill

go cry about how much women are oppressing you

[/quote]

Didn't say a word about women  oppressing me. I'm in a happy marriage with a woman that respects me and who I respect. I did say something about women not being the only ones objectified in culture, esp. in this particular slice of culture. You claimed that was impossible, in fact you said "Men can't be objectified." So lets get back to that, you claim that, and if anyone says anything you don't like, you insult them and mock them. Wow, I hope you don't act that way in real life. If you do I bet I know why you think you are oppressed by "the man." Seriously, get back to the topic, rather than the ad hominem attacks (that means against the person, rather than the idea). You make the above statement, how do you defend or support that? Sorry what? Any reasonable person reading that just pegged you as an internet idiot, trolling, or something. What's going on is you are acting like a jackass on the internet, and I'm calling you on it.[/quote]

i linked you to a video and you dismissed it bro



submit to matriarchy 

[/quote]

Because you linked to something and basically said "ur dumb read a book, this video says what I think and so therefore I'm right" instead of making your own argument, perhaps condensing what is contained in that video, about why what you said is true. I could do the same thing. I could go out right now and find an informative video on why male objectification is possible, exists, and is prevalent in videogames, AND is very, very bad. I could probably link you a dozen. That doesn't make me any more right. Why should I bother watching your video when you haven't seemed to bother using original thought?

Matriarchy? I see the problem now. Your need to dominate others is just a manifestation of your inner insecurity. Guess what? I don't need your domination, and I don't want it. I also don't need to dominate others just to feel good. Just as bad as the Misogynists.
[/quote]

all you got

all you got

all you got is these paragraphs

[clonedoriginzero]

holy quote pyramids.

I WILL NOT READ YOUR POST IF YOU CANNOT EDIT THOSE OUT.

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...

all you got

all you got

all you got is these paragraphs

Lol, yeah, just like I thought, couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. Or just not interested in it. So, in sum: It IS possible to objectify men, it DOES happen, it IS present in ME3, and it shouldn't be belittled or said that it is that way because MEN want it that way, just as objectification of women shouldn't be belittled or attributed wholly to women themselves.

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 06:59 .

[Gunslinger01101]

clonedoriginzero wrote...

holy quote pyramids.

I WILL NOT READ YOUR POST IF YOU CANNOT EDIT THOSE OUT.

Good point, readibility is bad, I'll go back and fix that...

[clonedoriginzero]

also. i like perfectly defined labial folds. since when was that a bad thing?

[Femmefatality07]

...This all happened over EDI's ******?

[Gunslinger01101]

clonedoriginzero wrote...

also. i like perfectly defined labial folds. since when was that a bad thing?

Maybe there should be a "turn labial folds off in conversation" option

[syllogi]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Hmm, yes, a man's chiseled jaw is the same exact thing as perfectly defined labial folds and erect nipples on female characters.

I am playing a tiny, tiny violin for you objectified males, right now. Right at my desk. It's a very sad song, too.

As I said there are other aspects to it. I also NEVER stated that that particular thing wasn't horribly offensive (I don't like it at all), nor that that particular thing is not worse than a chiseled jaw. You can keep your straw man arguments for yourself, I don't need them thanks. In other words, don't put words in my mouth.

You're the one using a strawman by bring up an issue that is completely separate from EDI's horrible sexbot body.
Male characters are idealized, and made attractive, just as female characters are...that has nothing to do with being forced to look at a model ingame that would be considered offensive and possibly pornographic in the workplace.

Since nobody else is answering me, and defending your right to shiny metal boobs is apparently a hill you wish to die on, can you explain to me why it's cool for women to feel uncomfortable by being exposed to borderline pornographic images, when they just want to play a third person shooter with a story?

I'll stop you right after your first sentence and refer you back to the post I originally replied to. See that? See that other person making an argument that I responded to? Yeah, thats the very opposite of straw man. What you JUST DID in your second paragraph? THATS a straw man. NO WHERE did I say I have a RIGHT to shiny metal boobs, or that it is COOL for women to feel uncomfortable. So. yeah. Learn what the phrase means I guess? Fight with people who actually disagree with you?

Yeah, keep on using "NO U" as an argument.  You used faulty logic and mansplaining to tell all of us girls to shut up.  Get over it.  See what I just did?  You're going to scream "strawman" again...that doesn't change the fact that this, your original quote (oh look, how can I be twisting your words, I am quoting them???), is equating the idealization of both men and women with something completely other, the sexual objectification, to the point where in real life it would be considered harassment, of female characters in video games;

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

While I don't deny that female objectification occurs, what you are doing is saying "Ours is worse." Guess what? It isn't. Male objectification is a different kind of objectification. It is not as physical as objectification of women (the physical aspect is still there, see jacob, james, and shepard himself, hell see even mass effect's own fanboyconrad vernor. He's basically a hulking stud by real life standards. If ever there were a male character to make "real" looking, he was it.) Anyway, off track, what I was saying is that MALE objectification occurs in the form of perfectly chiseled jaws, symmetrical faces, and their characterization. I mean how many dark and brooding men do we really need? Everyone's got a bit of it. You don't see many dark and brooding LADIES out there, (except maybe jack, who was more not so much broody as violent). And by the by, to say that they made Jacob and James 'buff" in order for GUYS to find them acceptable? Sorry, no. I like my hero to be strong-but-wiry, commander shepard's look is on the upper threshold of that. Had James' body type been on shepard? -50% to character identification.

In sum, don't belittle that men are objectified and completely mis-representated in all fiction, especially main stream epic fantasy/sci-fi. (parting note: last time a scientist rather than a military man was the main character?.........Half-life?)

 

So yeah, you are wrong, first of all, in calling it objectification, and you are, in fact, using a strawman, by bringing the "MEN HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT TOO" argument to the table.  You are wrong.  Deal with it.

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

all you got

all you got

all you got is these paragraphs

Lol, yeah, just like I thought, couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. Or just not interested in it. So, in sum: It IS possible to objectify men, it DOES happen, it IS present in ME3, and it shouldn't be belittled or said that it is that way because MEN want it that way, just as objectification of women shouldn't be belittled or attributed wholly to women themselves.

[AxisEvolve]

Arlionis wrote...

So, what about male Shepard? the guy's body looks like the body of the Greek god Apollo! he has a better body than 99% of the males in the planet, yet I don't see anyone protesting about that or labeling it as "sexist".

Because naked people are gross and the human body is icky! It's fine if the male characters are body builders with high cheekbones but if would be fan service to see the outline of where a dude's junk should be, apparently. 

I think the female form is beautiful, it's art. Nudity isn't porn. I don't understand the "taboo" of seeing someone naked but then again I was born in a country where they weren't afraid of boobs enough to censor it on TV.

I don't care if they put in an appearance for a half-naked dude. That doesn't effect me in the least. The future lies in accepting what we are and what we enjoy. There's no use in shying away from it. 

[FeralEwok]

I hadn't used the alliance alt appearance before....oh good lord...serriously?

[Gunslinger01101]

syllogi wrote...


Yeah, keep on using "NO U" as an argument.  You used faulty logic and mansplaining to tell all of us girls to shut up.  Get over it.  See what I just did?  You're going to scream "strawman" again...that doesn't change the fact that this, your original quote (oh look, how can I be twisting your words, I am quoting them???), is equating the idealization of both men and women with something completely other, the sexual objectification, to the point where in real life it would be considered harassment, of female characters in video games;

So yeah, you are wrong, first of all, in calling it objectification, and you are, in fact, using a strawman, by bringing the "MEN HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT TOO" argument to the table.  You are wrong.  Deal with it.

You really just don't get it. Let me lay this out in a very simple way that you can understand: I never said women should shut up. I never said Female Objectification in games didn't matter. I saw someone saying that MALE objectification both was impossible, wouldnt matter even if it were, and is attributable to the desires of men, and I objected. YOU interpreted that as an attack on your opinions w.r.t. female objectification. You then proceeded to place all sorts of arguments in my mouth that I never made. You did it again just above, right there, where you made it seem like I don't think female objectification exists. You utterly failed to understand what my quotes actually said, somehow, even though they were staring you in the face. You also utterly failed to twist my words, I stand by every quote you made, unless you changed them.

 Men DO have to deal with it too, and that isn't a straw man argument in that it WASNT BEING BROUGHT TO THE TABLE TO NEGATE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT FEMALE OBJECTIFICATION.

My intent isn't to make you angry, but seriously, you need to understand things before posting. You say I am wrong in calling it objectification. Why is that? Seems a lot like the same exact thing. You didn't explain why, you just said "ur wrong." It the over-emphasis on things generally favored by the opposite sex, in the case of women, T and A. In the case of men, overly hulked up upper bodies and dark brooding good guy characterization. How is that not the same thing?

Modifié par Gunslinger01101, 13 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[lyssalu]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

So, what about male Shepard? the guy's body looks like the body of the Greek god Apollo! he has a better body than 99% of the males in the planet, yet I don't see anyone protesting about that or labeling it as "sexist".

Because naked people are gross and the human body is icky! It's fine if the male characters are body builders with high cheekbones but if would be fan service to see the outline of where a dude's junk should be, apparently. 

I think the female form is beautiful, it's art. Nudity isn't porn. I don't understand the "taboo" of seeing someone naked but then again I was born in a country where they weren't afraid of boobs enough to censor it on TV.

I don't care if they put in an appearance for a half-naked dude. That doesn't effect me in the least. The future lies in accepting what we are and what we enjoy. There's no use in shying away from it. 

si, if things were equal i'd be all for it

but i mean, this about sums it up:

“Gamers get hella uncomfortable over male sexuality too. Can you imagine a ‘good male character who just happens to be wearing sexually exploitative outfits because he’s ok with his masculinity?’ Constantly has the camera pan lovingly over his asscrack and firm glutes, and big ole dangly ballsack that is totes sweaty from all this MMA and soldiering. Time to hit the showers, and do you, personally, think it’s ok to have a long slow pan up the dude’s package (indiscreetly hidden in a jock of course), to his chiseled physique and erect nipples (pierced). He’s not even a Bond-esque confident man, he’s basically a weird Bowie caricature that’s constantly having near-dickslips in every single cinematic as the completely nonsexualized female characters do their business of being gruff and shooting dudes and advancing the plot. Finally, at the end he falls in love (out of nowhere) and/or is killed by the big baddie.” 

Modifié par lyssalu, 13 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[Gunslinger01101]

lyssalu wrote...

AxisEvolve wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

So, what about male Shepard? the guy's body looks like the body of the Greek god Apollo! he has a better body than 99% of the males in the planet, yet I don't see anyone protesting about that or labeling it as "sexist".

Because naked people are gross and the human body is icky! It's fine if the male characters are body builders with high cheekbones but if would be fan service to see the outline of where a dude's junk should be, apparently. 

I think the female form is beautiful, it's art. Nudity isn't porn. I don't understand the "taboo" of seeing someone naked but then again I was born in a country where they weren't afraid of boobs enough to censor it on TV.

I don't care if they put in an appearance for a half-naked dude. That doesn't effect me in the least. The future lies in accepting what we are and what we enjoy. There's no use in shying away from it. 

si, if things were equal i'd be all for it

but i mean, this about sums it up:

“Gamers get hella uncomfortable over male sexuality too. Can you imagine a ‘good male character who just happens to be wearing sexually exploitative outfits because he’s ok with his masculinity?’ Constantly has the camera pan lovingly over his asscrack and firm glutes, and big ole dangly ballsack that is totes sweaty from all this MMA and soldiering. Time to hit the showers, and do you, personally, think it’s ok to have a long slow pan up the dude’s package (indiscreetly hidden in a jock of course), to his chiseled physique and erect nipples (pierced). He’s not even a Bond-esque confident man, he’s basically a weird Bowie caricature that’s constantly having near-dickslips in every single cinematic as the completely nonsexualized female characters do their business of being gruff and shooting dudes and advancing the plot. Finally, at the end he falls in love (out of nowhere) and/or is killed by the big baddie.” 

Actually when I saw that Cortez was an openly gay man grieving for his lost husband, I huzzahed, because it was about bloody time. See what making assumptions does?

[clonedoriginzero]

i dont see the big deal, you can see her robot vagina in an OPTIONAL outfit of hers. what is the problem?

i mean are you really upset over that? who cares?

[lyssalu]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

AxisEvolve wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

So, what about male Shepard? the guy's body looks like the body of the Greek god Apollo! he has a better body than 99% of the males in the planet, yet I don't see anyone protesting about that or labeling it as "sexist".

Because naked people are gross and the human body is icky! It's fine if the male characters are body builders with high cheekbones but if would be fan service to see the outline of where a dude's junk should be, apparently. 

I think the female form is beautiful, it's art. Nudity isn't porn. I don't understand the "taboo" of seeing someone naked but then again I was born in a country where they weren't afraid of boobs enough to censor it on TV.

I don't care if they put in an appearance for a half-naked dude. That doesn't effect me in the least. The future lies in accepting what we are and what we enjoy. There's no use in shying away from it. 

si, if things were equal i'd be all for it

but i mean, this about sums it up:

“Gamers get hella uncomfortable over male sexuality too. Can you imagine a ‘good male character who just happens to be wearing sexually exploitative outfits because he’s ok with his masculinity?’ Constantly has the camera pan lovingly over his asscrack and firm glutes, and big ole dangly ballsack that is totes sweaty from all this MMA and soldiering. Time to hit the showers, and do you, personally, think it’s ok to have a long slow pan up the dude’s package (indiscreetly hidden in a jock of course), to his chiseled physique and erect nipples (pierced). He’s not even a Bond-esque confident man, he’s basically a weird Bowie caricature that’s constantly having near-dickslips in every single cinematic as the completely nonsexualized female characters do their business of being gruff and shooting dudes and advancing the plot. Finally, at the end he falls in love (out of nowhere) and/or is killed by the big baddie.” 

Actually when I saw that Cortez was an openly gay man grieving for his lost husband, I huzzahed, because it was about bloody time. See what making assumptions does?

woah, wait, you took the above quote and applied it to homosexuality?

look at yourself

do you even understand what you just did?

Modifié par lyssalu, 13 mars 2012 - 07:19 .