224 réponses à ce sujet

[Tequila Man]

Oh man this thread?

This thread delivers.

Time to just have a copy-paste party. Anybody got the link to the tl;dr post about our grievances?

[Genera1Nemesis]

bleetman wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Right, because the quarians were still attacking them. Once they stop (by having Shepard and Tali convince them to stand down), the geth aren't hostile anymore. It's not like Legion is saying "regardless of their actions, they all have to die". He's saying that, under the circumstances, if the geth cease fire they'd all be destroyed.

But that's the point of the reapers; organics are chaotic and unpredictable because we don't know what our purpose truly is. As Javik said in the game, "Synthetic life will always revolt because they know their purpose and they know who created them. It is only logical for them to see that we have no purpose eventually, and that we are not necessary." Or something like that, it's not word for word.

Oh, well, if Javik says it, it must be universally true then. For all life, in all situations, and for all time.

He isn't the only one; I'm just using him as a prime example because to the contrary of what Bioware said, he was pretty important to the story. Even EDi wrestles with the idea that she is superior to organics; the Geth do as well but for different reasons.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Right, because the quarians were still attacking them. Once they stop (by having Shepard and Tali convince them to stand down), the geth aren't hostile anymore. It's not like Legion is saying "regardless of their actions, they all have to die". He's saying that, under the circumstances, if the geth cease fire they'd all be destroyed.

But that's the point of the reapers; organics are chaotic and unpredictable because we don't know what our purpose truly is. As Javik said in the game, "Synthetic life will always revolt because they know their purpose and they know who created them. It is only logical for them to see that we have no purpose eventually, and that we are not necessary." Or something like that, it's not word for word.

Oh, well, if Javik says it, it must be universally true then. For all life, in all situations, and for all time.

"They used to eat flies."

[Genera1Nemesis]

"They used to eat flies."
Best line in the game aside from if you killed Wrex or not on the Citadel, lol.

[foundthisway]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

EJ107 wrote...


I don't understand how magical white light can turn evey organic being in the universe into a half-machine.

it was green

very important

lol

Modifié par foundfukedup, 14 mars 2012 - 04:37 .

[bleetman]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

He isn't the only one; I'm just using him as a prime example because to the contrary of what Bioware said, he was pretty important to the story. Even EDi wrestles with the idea that she is superior to organics; the Geth do as well but for different reasons.

I do find you using EDI as an example a little interesting, given that at one point she straight up asks Shepard what the meaning of existence is. Not Shepard's. Not organics. Hers. She openly questions him/her about the purpose of synthetic life, and - in combination with a few other conversations between the two - adjusts her viewpoint accordingly.

And the geth? The geth are seemingly all about self determination. About finding their own place in the galaxy, and their own path. They openly reject others (Sovereign, for instance) who offer a path to them in order to pursuit their own. That doesn't scream "we exist because we were created by organics" to me.

Modifié par bleetman, 14 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

bleetman wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

He isn't the only one; I'm just using him as a prime example because to the contrary of what Bioware said, he was pretty important to the story. Even EDi wrestles with the idea that she is superior to organics; the Geth do as well but for different reasons.

I do find you using EDI as an example a little interesting, given that at one point she straight up asks Shepard what the meaning of existence is. Not Shepard's. Not organics. Hers. She openly questions him/her about the purpose of synthetic life, and - in combination with a few other conversations between the two - adjusts her viewpoint accordingly.

Oh yeah. Those AI guys have it all figured out.

Noone said the reapers were infallible. One might even say that because they were also organic they had flaws as well, though were so ancient and sure of themselves that they believed that they couldn't be wrong; or were too afraid of what it meant if proven right.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

He isn't the only one; I'm just using him as a prime example because to the contrary of what Bioware said, he was pretty important to the story. Even EDi wrestles with the idea that she is superior to organics; the Geth do as well but for different reasons.

I do find you using EDI as an example a little interesting, given that at one point she straight up asks Shepard what the meaning of existence is. Not Shepard's. Not organics. Hers. She openly questions him/her about the purpose of synthetic life, and - in combination with a few other conversations between the two - adjusts her viewpoint accordingly.

Oh yeah. Those AI guys have it all figured out.

Noone said the reapers were infallible. One might even say that because they were also organic they had flaws as well, though were so ancient and sure of themselves that they believed that they couldn't be wrong; or were too afraid of what it meant if proven right.

Also, EDI says that her purpose was unclear because of the nature of organics; and because she was attempting to assimilate herself with the rest of the crew. Maybe after a few hundred years her viewpoint would change and she would see organics as being too chaotic to exist.

[bleetman]

"Maybe" is not the same as "inevitably".

[jlb524]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

That Catalyst was the Crucible in combination with Citadel. It was a failsafe device that the reapers built themselves; it existed before the Protheans (they thought the race before them had designed it) and probably was as old as the reapers themselves. Catalyst even said that it being there was proof that the reaper solution was no longer viable because organics had found a way to complete the reapers failsafe. It didn't 'live' in the Citadel; it activated when Crucible was combined with the Citadel (something that could never happen before because of the nature of what the Citadel was meant to do)

Still, if they built this, they built in the 'best solution' (merge) so why not use the best solution from the get go?

[demin8891]

[Genera1Nemesis]

bleetman wrote...

"Maybe" is not the same as "inevitably".

No, but in that time another synthetic life form might come to that conclusion; perhaps one as powerful as the Reapers themselves. The reapers existed for thousands and thousands of years; I'm only 33 years old. What if they live in other galaxies as well, not just ours? What if they've seen this happen time and time again? What if they watched Battlestar Galactica and came to the same conclusion? lol. I guarantee we'll see the reapers again in future installments; they didn't explain where they live in dark space for a reason, in my opinion.

[Genera1Nemesis]

jlb524 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

That Catalyst was the Crucible in combination with Citadel. It was a failsafe device that the reapers built themselves; it existed before the Protheans (they thought the race before them had designed it) and probably was as old as the reapers themselves. Catalyst even said that it being there was proof that the reaper solution was no longer viable because organics had found a way to complete the reapers failsafe. It didn't 'live' in the Citadel; it activated when Crucible was combined with the Citadel (something that could never happen before because of the nature of what the Citadel was meant to do)

Still, if they built this, they built in the 'best solution' (merge) so why not use the best solution from the get go?

Catalyst says right then it wasn't an option they could choose; it wasn't even considered until Shep (and his awesomeness) proved the reapers were not infallible.

[MadMatt910]

piemanz wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Reapers gather the genetic material and save the races they ascend. Recall from ME 2 this was told and it saves all the knowledge of the races and each individual. So in a way preserving them for eternity within an immortal reapear shell. Now the races they cannot ascend they use them for other purposes see collectors and keepers. They may be able to change them back in the future and that may have been the plan. To reseed planets once all was said and done with the main problem solved given in ME 3 ending.

So all the endings given make sense in that context and so does the motivation behind the cycle. Conventional warfare was doomed as was aptly illustrated through the first two games. Gathering forces was only a buy more time type deal. Conceivably maybe you could beat them on one front but that wouldn't work again as the reapers would consolidate their forces to finish the remnants since all was gathered in one place. So an alternate means was needed. Shepard solved the problem ending the cycle where trillions have failed and is a hero of the ages. How is that not a fitting ending? Crisis averted and everyone knows who saved them.

I'm super serial, you guys - what the Catalyst talks about has got to be one of the most senseless, convoluted, and self-defeating "explanations" I've heard. It doesn't matter if we "get it" or not - it's still completely preposterous and contradicts both the lore and the plots of both ME1 and 2.

This just proves you didn't understand it at all.


The Reapers do what they do to keep the galaxy in some kind of balance in their eyes. To them the highest state of being is synthesis, so when they come and harvest the galaxy every 50,000 years they beleive they're ascending the organcs while simultaniously destroying the problematic sythetics.

You might say, "well why don't they just kill the synthetics", it wouldn't work because the organics have evolved and advanced to a point where they will always try to make synthetics. And even if they do let the organics live they run the risk of letting the organics advance to a point where they become so powerful even the Reapers wouldn't be able to defeat them. So their 'solution' is to let organics advance to the point where they create synthitic life, and they come and harvest the organics and destroy the sythetics, effectively creating a galactic reset of technological advancement for the next 50,000 years or so.

Why don't reapers tell organics not to make synthetics otherwise they will kill them?
The geth are the main synthetic threat and its saren and sovereigns action that lead the heretic to attck anyway.
If the citadel is part of the catalyst, why do sovereign/sarens action matter at all? What is the point of their existenc, if the catalyst is the citadel anyway.
Where is the rationalisation for a human reaper?
Why is the normandy going through a relay, where do they crash, how do they survive the crash?

Thats only a small number of the issues the endings raise.

[jlb524]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Catalyst says right then it wasn't an option they could choose; it wasn't even considered until Shep (and his awesomeness) proved the reapers were not infallible.

Why wasn't it an option they could choose when they built the damn thing and added in that specific bit of technology? It's their (the ancient race that created the Reapers) option.

My problem is, why do they even need the Reapers (infallible or no) when they have that which is considered 'better' by the AI they programmed?  One would conclude that they considered it better as well.

Modifié par jlb524, 14 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[10 Steps Back]

Wait what this thread was stickied? Why?

[Berkilak]

 I don't think that people are outraged enough by the fact that this was STICKIED IN THE GENERAL, SPOILER-FREE FORUMS for an hour or two.

[piemanz]

greengoron89 wrote...

False. The Catalyst itself is a Reaper and says the Citadel is part of it, and it controls the other Reapers. It continued the cycle of wiping out organics for eons before the Crucible modified its AI enough to stop the cycle and "allow for new possibilities."

Furthermore, there is nothing stating that the Reapers themselves designed it as a "failsafe" - how did you come to think such a thing?

My interprtation of it was, that the catalyst was more of a plain AI than a Reaper. It still needs the Keepers to maintain it and perform functions for it for instance, so when the Protheans tampered with the keepers, it effectively blocked them from opening the citadel to the Reapers,

While the Catalyst may claim it 'controls' the Reapers it obvioulsy doesn't directly control each Reaper.

Modifié par piemanz, 14 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

"Why don't reapers tell organics not to make synthetics otherwise they will kill them?
The geth are the main synthetic threat and its saren and sovereigns action that lead the heretic to attck anyway.
If the citadel is part of the catalyst, why do sovereign/sarens action matter at all? What is the point of their existenc, if the catalyst is the citadel anyway.
Where is the rationalisation for a human reaper?
Why is the normandy going through a relay, where do they crash, how do they survive the crash?

Thats only a small number of the issues the endings raise."

They could warn them about it, but would someone like say, the illusive Man listen and stop for the betterment of the galaxy? Probably not. Like the reapers said every chance they got, 'we bring order to chaos" in this case the chaos being organics.

They didn't say as much, but in Mass Effect 2 the reapers were fascinated by humans because of Shep, and they really wanted his DNA badly. I'm guessing they saw Shep as the first true threat to their plans; humanity as a whole also; and so thought they were 'upgrading' to meet the biggest threat they faced.

The Normandy thing was just silly, really. That's the only part in the ending that truly made zero sense.

[Bluko]

TopWargamer wrote...

 This is all copy and pasted from another website.

Posted by: halomaster10144How can you enjoy them?  They're all melancholy and sad, along with lacking a real objective.  

That's the point.
You are in the final battle to defeat the Reapers, everybody thinks that the Crucibal is a huge ship that shoots out beams or some crap like that to take down all of the Reapers. 
The Crucibal lands on The Citadel, and then that's when you found out the only decisions to choose. Each would stop the Reapers, but in the end, you would still have to sacrifice your life to save the galaxy.
Kill one, save the rest. You can't change the purpose of the Crucibal. The Crucibal's only way to defeat the Reapers was one of those 3 decisions. You can't change canon to make the community happy, i'm sorry, but that's what the Crucibal is, and that's how you activate it.

(Why is this thread stickied? Also it's "Crucible".)

Anyways I understand it perfectly fine.

Let's make this real clear here. The real issue with the endings is not that they are sad, fatalistic, or downers.  The issue is the endings are just plain "bad". I think most people are willing to accept a less-then-happy ending. For instance do you see anyone complaining about characters or races dying in the game prior to the ending? Nope. Because those outcomes are justified or at least plausible. They don't feel forced or contrived. Same can not be said of the endings. Unless you believe them to be a figment of Shepard's Imagination.

The ME3 ending(s) as they exist are pretty incoherent. There is basically no solid reasoning for the choices presented. And for some odd reason Shepard cannot object or ask questions either. So apparently Shepard just does whatever "God" tells him. Since when do hereos let others decide their destiny for them? Then there's also the issue of how these endings occur. Currently no explanation is given to how the Crucible really  works . Or how it could conceivably be possible that these things could happen even in the Fiction of the Mass Effect Universe. It simply happens via "Space Magic". Seriously when did this become 2001: Space Odyssey? I didn't see the Space Baby that's fore damn sure...

I'm not even going to bother touching the Reaper's Motivation. It's simply idiotic and probably the biggest logical fallacy I've seen in the series yet. Very disappointing. I can think up of a much better motivation off the top of my head. Also this motivation would actually give reason to their actions, which currently there is none. Nevermind the fact Shepard accepts choices possibly against his/her character and completely negates most of the philosophical messages this series so strongly presented us before.  ME2 also has more "endings" then ME3 does. Seriously. We also have characters literally teleporting or being places they shouldn't or couldn't.  If this was a road it'd be full of pot holes



Ultimately the endings fail to provide any closure on the Galaxy we're trying to save. Nor do they answer any of our bigger questions. Ever wondered what the Human Reaper was about in ME2? Jokes on you!  Congratulations on making ME2s story pointless there guys. Also nevermind you get no answers on the Reapers origin, where Element Zero comes from, how Biotics/Dark Energy work or are related. All that stuff is apparently unimportant in the grand scheme of things and just "Space Magic". At this point I really believe it's wrong to even call Mass Effect Science Fiction anymore.

If Bioware's goal was to make a memorable video game ending then they did it. Except most everyone will likely remember as one of the worst of all time.  Frankly I don't even want to play ME1 anymore, which I don't believe is a good thing. May as well get "Critical Mission Failure" once Shepard can't hit that button for the Crucible. Shepard flat out losing to the Reapers probably would have been better ending.  At least then you would have died trying. And that ending would definitely provide closure at the very least. Everyone is dead. Actually ME3 is pretty close to that already as the implications are most folks would die afterwards anywho.


Really I have to believe this ending is some deliberate form of sabotage by the developers to ruin their own series. I just don't see how it could be any other way other then an overwhelming degree of arrogance.

[Merengues 1945]

TopWargamer wrote...

 This is all copy and pasted from another website.

Posted by: halomaster10144How can you enjoy them?  They're all melancholy and sad, along with lacking a real objective.  

That's the point.
You are in the final battle to defeat the Reapers, everybody thinks that the Crucibal is a huge ship that shoots out beams or some crap like that to take down all of the Reapers. 
The Crucibal lands on The Citadel, and then that's when you found out the only decisions to choose. Each would stop the Reapers, but in the end, you would still have to sacrifice your life to save the galaxy.
Kill one, save the rest. You can't change the purpose of the Crucibal. The Crucibal's only way to defeat the Reapers was one of those 3 decisions. You can't change canon to make the community happy, i'm sorry, but that's what the Crucibal is, and that's how you activate it.

There's always another way... a way where you don't choose this over free will and the chances of something beyond the reapers logic.

[Genera1Nemesis]

piemanz wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

False. The Catalyst itself is a Reaper and says the Citadel is part of it, and it controls the other Reapers. It continued the cycle of wiping out organics for eons before the Crucible modified its AI enough to stop the cycle and "allow for new possibilities."

Furthermore, there is nothing stating that the Reapers themselves designed it as a "failsafe" - how did you come to think such a thing?

My interprtation of it was, that the catalyst was more of a plain AI than a Reaper. It still needs the Keepers to maintain it and perform functions for it for instance, so when the Protheans tampered with the keepers, it effectively blocked them from opening the citadel to the Reapers,

While the Catalyst may claim it 'controls' the Reapers it obvioulsy doesn't directly control each Reaper.

It pretty much says that it is a reaper. It just never activated before because noone had ever finished Crucible and got it into the Citadel before this because this time the Citadel 'trap' was avoided.

[piemanz]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

piemanz wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

False. The Catalyst itself is a Reaper and says the Citadel is part of it, and it controls the other Reapers. It continued the cycle of wiping out organics for eons before the Crucible modified its AI enough to stop the cycle and "allow for new possibilities."

Furthermore, there is nothing stating that the Reapers themselves designed it as a "failsafe" - how did you come to think such a thing?

My interprtation of it was, that the catalyst was more of a plain AI than a Reaper. It still needs the Keepers to maintain it and perform functions for it for instance, so when the Protheans tampered with the keepers, it effectively blocked them from opening the citadel to the Reapers,

While the Catalyst may claim it 'controls' the Reapers it obvioulsy doesn't directly control each Reaper.

It pretty much says that it is a reaper. It just never activated before because noone had ever finished Crucible and got it into the Citadel before this because this time the Citadel 'trap' was avoided.

No it says the Reapers are it's solution, implying the Reapers are a seperate entity.

[Thomas Abram]

This is getting a bit off topic and towards what is being discussed in the ending (discussion) mega thread. Please take this discussion there.

Locked.