1634 réponses à ce sujet

[crymzenassassin]

as the title says "Civil" im not expecting anyone to go off on me and start being childish...this is just my opinion and i DO NOT mean it as a personal attack.

while there are some reasons why people are up in arms that i semi..agree with.from what i have seen over the past 3-4 days on this forum in particular i have come to the conclusion that the majority (majority of things i personaly have seen) have little to do with these reasons.

it is all mostly childish crying because they did not get what they wanted when they wanted it, instead of being civil,patient and understanding..people throw thier toys out of the pram and go on a rampage..condemn a company that has made more amazing and original games than any other in the history of this industry.

i mean realy guys? its like people are just throwing themselfs on the floor kicking legs and screaming about not getting what they wanted...like a child when his/her mother says he cant have cookies before dinner. these people use the exscuse "we are QQ'ing because me care" no you are not..you are QQ'ing because you didn't get what you wanted.

i have not seen one person sit back and actualy be civil and patient about the whole thing..within minutes of finishing the game people came on here and every other forum they could and winged like little babies making bioware out to be the devil instead of atleast sitting there trying to understand and wait.

i have been a huge fan of bioware for years, i hated DA2 but i didnt QQ about it..i thought one bad game fine lets move on, ME is my favorite game franchise of all time...regardless what you think of the end..it IS still the greatest gaming trilogy of all time..

its a series that is very close to my heart but you don't see me up i arms crying like a little baby over 1% of on of the best games in the past 2 years..i do not HATE the endings but that does not mean i like them either...i have faith and loyalty wich doesn't faulter over somthing this small.

small? YES..small..until bioware comes out and says "screw you all, thats how it ends and there is nothing you can do about it" i sugest you all chill out..nothing you do will make the blindest bit of difference..BW have a plan..and they had one long before any of you even played the game

as i said i don't mean this as a personal attack, im just going by what i have seen..and im my opinion you all realy need to chill out

[Spyre2001]

1490 wrote...

Personally I'm ok with the ending because I like tragedies, and  think sometimes it's necessary to have a story end sadly or where the bad guys win to keep the suspense in other stories; if you always know the good guy will win absolutely, it's not as exciting.  My beef is that the choices were extremely limited in the end, and it pretty much ended one way (with a few slightly different flavors).  I think it's in the spirit of Mass Effect to allow more options.

Well it's possible to alway have the good guy win and still maintain suspense. The thing is it's not about the victory it's about the sacrifices along the way to victory. Will the hero come out on top unharmed, honor intact, with all surviving friends.

Anyone who watched Doctor Who knows this. It's obvious the Doctor will win at the end of the day. But the question is will he manage to save everyone. In many of the stories several people die. In a few to further raise the stakes he losses a companion or even mortally wounded himself forcing a regenartion cycle. So even though we all know at the end of the day the Doctor is coming out on top we are not sure of the scars he might have when it's all done.

[Subject M]

Spyre2001 wrote...

1490 wrote...

Personally I'm ok with the ending because I like tragedies, and  think sometimes it's necessary to have a story end sadly or where the bad guys win to keep the suspense in other stories; if you always know the good guy will win absolutely, it's not as exciting.  My beef is that the choices were extremely limited in the end, and it pretty much ended one way (with a few slightly different flavors).  I think it's in the spirit of Mass Effect to allow more options.

Well it's possible to alway have the good guy win and still maintain suspense. The thing is it's not about the victory it's about the sacrifices along the way to victory. Will the hero come out on top unharmed, honor intact, with all surviving friends.

Anyone who watched Doctor Who knows this. It's obvious the Doctor will win at the end of the day. But the question is will he manage to save everyone. In many of the stories several people die. In a few to further raise the stakes he losses a companion or even mortally wounded himself forcing a regenartion cycle. So even though we all know at the end of the day the Doctor is coming out on top we are not sure of the scars he might have when it's all done.

+1

Even if Shepard had survived with his LI and team on earth, the "happy ending" would still contain much tragedy.

[Suparaddy]

My Mass Effect 3 analysis.

Bioware = Ron Jeremy
Fan Base = Random Girl over the years.

Conclusion: Some people loved it and will gladly take it over and over again. Others are simply left with a bad taste in their mouth and an uncomfortable sensation in their rear.
Personally I happen to be the latter, but to each their own! Everybody is entitled to their opinion. On my part, I really hope Ron Jer...er...Bioware puts out some sorta DLC to expand on the endings. I'll even pay for it, just to support their efforts. Peoples gotta eat right?

[Matthewslegaitis]

Mass Effect is my favorite game and is in my top three favorite story arcs. Every game has revolutionized the bar for RPGs and blown away its predecessor in detail, storytelling and game play. Mass effect 3 was no exception up until the catalyst AI. I want to see ME3 have the divergent endings I have come to expect from the Mass effect franchise and I want to see the trilogy get the ending that will give it the place it rightly deserves in sci-fi and gaming history.

[Matthewslegaitis]

crymzenassassin wrote...

as the title says "Civil" im not expecting anyone to go off on me and start being childish...this is just my opinion and i DO NOT mean it as a personal attack.

while there are some reasons why people are up in arms that i semi..agree with.from what i have seen over the past 3-4 days on this forum in particular i have come to the conclusion that the majority (majority of things i personaly have seen) have little to do with these reasons.

it is all mostly childish crying because they did not get what they wanted when they wanted it, instead of being civil,patient and understanding..people throw thier toys out of the pram and go on a rampage..condemn a company that has made more amazing and original games than any other in the history of this industry.

i mean realy guys? its like people are just throwing themselfs on the floor kicking legs and screaming about not getting what they wanted...like a child when his/her mother says he cant have cookies before dinner. these people use the exscuse "we are QQ'ing because me care" no you are not..you are QQ'ing because you didn't get what you wanted.

i have not seen one person sit back and actualy be civil and patient about the whole thing..within minutes of finishing the game people came on here and every other forum they could and winged like little babies making bioware out to be the devil instead of atleast sitting there trying to understand and wait.

i have been a huge fan of bioware for years, i hated DA2 but i didnt QQ about it..i thought one bad game fine lets move on, ME is my favorite game franchise of all time...regardless what you think of the end..it IS still the greatest gaming trilogy of all time..

its a series that is very close to my heart but you don't see me up i arms crying like a little baby over 1% of on of the best games in the past 2 years..i do not HATE the endings but that does not mean i like them either...i have faith and loyalty wich doesn't faulter over somthing this small.

small? YES..small..until bioware comes out and says "screw you all, thats how it ends and there is nothing you can do about it" i sugest you all chill out..nothing you do will make the blindest bit of difference..BW have a plan..and they had one long before any of you even played the game

as i said i don't mean this as a personal attack, im just going by what i have seen..and im my opinion you all realy need to chill out

Boiware has a reputation for excellent storytelling. they create world such as the dragon age universe and te mass effect universe that are completely original and have unending layers of back-story and history. Anyone who reads all the codex entrees understands that Bioware puts unprecedented thought into their games. It is not childish wineing to be shocked that bioware dropped the ball at the end of an awesome game using an old decision process used in fable II and Deus Ex human revolution. Not to mention that the endings make no sense whatsoever when lined up to the universes own lore. The community’s response clearly indicates this is not what we expected from bioware or mass effect for the most part. While certan elements exist that loved the endings most people where like what? I spent over forty eight hours a game to get this? From what I expected before release to what I expected as Sheppard desperately reached for the consol to try and activate the crucible. The ending I got was certainly not eqal to the game that preceded it.

 

[Taboo]

Has anyone added the fact that if the citadel blew up in orbit it would rain down chunks large enough to cause mass extinction in the same vein as an impact event with an asteroid?

[1490]

Matthewslegaitis wrote...

Boiware has a reputation for excellent storytelling. they create world such as the dragon age universe and te mass effect universe that are completely original and have unending layers of back-story and history. Anyone who reads all the codex entrees understands that Bioware puts unprecedented thought into their games. It is not childish wineing to be shocked that bioware dropped the ball at the end of an awesome game using an old decision process used in fable II and Deus Ex human revolution. Not to mention that the endings make no sense whatsoever when lined up to the universes own lore. The community’s response clearly indicates this is not what we expected from bioware or mass effect for the most part. While certan elements exist that loved the endings most people where like what? I spent over forty eight hours a game to get this? From what I expected before release to what I expected as Sheppard desperately reached for the consol to try and activate the crucible. The ending I got was certainly not eqal to the game that preceded it.

 

Speaking of Deus Ex, the ending of Mass Effect  is almost straight-copied from Deus Ex 2: Invisible War, along with the options to take control of everything, fuse synthetic and organic life, or destroy everything.  The endings for Deus Ex 2 were much more diverse and satisfying though.

[CDRSkyShepard]

crymzenassassin wrote...

as the title says "Civil" im not expecting anyone to go off on me and start being childish...this is just my opinion and i DO NOT mean it as a personal attack.

while there are some reasons why people are up in arms that i semi..agree with.from what i have seen over the past 3-4 days on this forum in particular i have come to the conclusion that the majority (majority of things i personaly have seen) have little to do with these reasons.

it is all mostly childish crying because they did not get what they wanted when they wanted it, instead of being civil,patient and understanding..people throw thier toys out of the pram and go on a rampage..condemn a company that has made more amazing and original games than any other in the history of this industry.

i mean realy guys? its like people are just throwing themselfs on the floor kicking legs and screaming about not getting what they wanted...like a child when his/her mother says he cant have cookies before dinner. these people use the exscuse "we are QQ'ing because me care" no you are not..you are QQ'ing because you didn't get what you wanted.

i have not seen one person sit back and actualy be civil and patient about the whole thing..within minutes of finishing the game people came on here and every other forum they could and winged like little babies making bioware out to be the devil instead of atleast sitting there trying to understand and wait.

i have been a huge fan of bioware for years, i hated DA2 but i didnt QQ about it..i thought one bad game fine lets move on, ME is my favorite game franchise of all time...regardless what you think of the end..it IS still the greatest gaming trilogy of all time..

its a series that is very close to my heart but you don't see me up i arms crying like a little baby over 1% of on of the best games in the past 2 years..i do not HATE the endings but that does not mean i like them either...i have faith and loyalty wich doesn't faulter over somthing this small.

small? YES..small..until bioware comes out and says "screw you all, thats how it ends and there is nothing you can do about it" i sugest you all chill out..nothing you do will make the blindest bit of difference..BW have a plan..and they had one long before any of you even played the game

as i said i don't mean this as a personal attack, im just going by what i have seen..and im my opinion you all realy need to chill out

Who says we aren't chill? I think my whole point here is to tell everyone, "Hey, we believe XYZ is wrong, and let's chill out for a minute and present our arguments in an organized, logical fashion. If we go off like raving lunatics then they won't take us seriously."

A lot of people have legitimate beefs with the endings. There are multiple articles that support our claim and defend us against those who would call us "entitled." I'll direct you to the Forbes articles in the OP for that. In the end, we are the consumer, the customer, and in business, the company has to cater to the consumer, not the other way around.

Besides, it's not so much about us "kicking and screaming like a child not getting cookies before dinner" as it is being told that your meal comes with dessert, only to find out that dessert is an Andes mint. I'll also direct you to the Game Front article in the OP titled "5 Reasons the Fans Are Right." It perfectly outlines what BioWare promised us ("wildly divergent endings") and how it definitely doesn't agree with what we got.

Beyond that, there's the issue of the last 10 minutes of the game being incredibly riddled with plot holes. I said it in the OP, and I'll say it here...it is not up to the fans to fill in the gaps in the story, that's BioWare's job. If there are holes in the plot, it's their fault. They are reknowned for writing the finest stories in gaming - and, as you pointed out, they have succeeded masterfully with the Mass Effect trilogy - so to have such a thing occur is highly irregular. I think that we are owed an explanation on this: why let the writing book go out the window in the last 10 minutes? What happened there? We don't want to condemn BioWare, we want to hold them accountable.

I agree with you that Mass Effect 3 is a fantastic game, as do most of the people who wish to see a change in (or at least an explanation of) the endings. It's the last 10 minutes we're deeply concerned about. There are many, many weak points to it. We're not throwing tantrums (the vast majority of us, from what I've seen...ignoring the random rage threads that pop up) over an ending we "didn't get" or "didn't want," we're asking for an ending that is worthy of the rest of the series. We have solid arguments as to why these endings aren't befitting of the Mass Effect trilogy. Ultimately, what we want is what is best for the Mass Effect universe...even BioWare. Controversial endings, bitersweet endings, tragic endings...sure, I'm sure if you've been following the forums, you'd find most of us are cool with all that. But just because an ending is trying to be controversial, make a statement (they'd have made more of a statement if they didn't throw half the themes of the franchise out the window, btw), or something else doesn't necessarily mean its good.

Did some of us want a "happy" ending? Yeah. I count myself among them. None of us expected sunshine and rainbows, or to get out of this unscathed, but we at least expected to be able to take our Shepard and start rebuilding with our crew by our side. If that's not what BioWare wants, then fine. It's their story. But, at the same time, since it is their story, they need it to make some iota of sense. Plot holes aside, the Guardian tells us that organics will always create synthetics, and the synthetics will in turn destroy organics, and that is a cycle that will repeat without end. Shepard never got the "paragon interrupt" opportunity to say, "Hey, wait a minute...I got the geth and quarians to work together. I have a synthetic aboard my ship...what about her?" He just kind of rolls over and is like, "Yep, okay, what now?" 

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You're entitled to your opinion, as everyone is, but please don't mistake us for children. Myself and others believe that there are legitimate concerns to be had with the quality of ending we were given that go far beyond "well my Shep didn't get a happily ever after, so poo." There are parts of it that make no sense, it was honestly quite underwhelming, and it didn't give us the broad range of outcome that we really were promised. Again, I direct you to Forbes and Game Front...they outline everything very nicely.

That said, welcome to our little corner of the forums.

Edit: I sure hope you're right that BioWare has a plan...but I just don't see what kind of sense it makes to purposely have a tacked-on ending planned. And I also don't think they "planned" to have an ending all along that just fails to deliver on so many levels.

Modifié par CDRSkyShepard, 15 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[Moirai]

Just a little something that I wanted to mention. Not a rant. Purely some considered feedback on the situation. Plus it's a bump!

I've seen quite a few people use the line, 'It's Bioware's story, they can tell it however they like', in various places over the last few days, as if it somehow legitimises the current lackluster endings (I know you just used it yourself, Sky, but I'm naturally not including you here, for what should be very obvious reasons).

However, I don't consider this to be a valid argument at all.

After all, a car manufacturer has the right to design and build a car however they want. It's their car design, after all. But if they deliver that car with a specification that is lower than advertised, you naturally have a right to complain. And nobody would argue otherwise. This is precisely why we have certain legal rights as consumers, to cover these situations.

The point that seems to be overlooked by those who use this 'argument' is that video games are as much a consumer product as any other product.

When that product fails to meet the expectations of the consumer - expectations which have been both fuelled and established by the very company manufacturing the product - consumers have both a legal and fundamental right to complain. If the product does not deliver what is say 'on the tin' you have a right to complain. Fact.

And in the end, ME3 does not deliver the endings we were told would exist in the game by Bioware themselves. Complaining about that does not make us childish, or any variation on that label.

It makes us what we are; paying consumers, dissatisfied by the product we purchased, and rightfully complaining about said mis-sold product.

Those in this thread have been very polite about this, and, to my mind, cut Bioware a heck of a lot of slack in the circumstances. We have acted in a civil and considerate manner, because that is the right way to behave in these situations. But it should never be overlooked by Bioware that, behind that civility is a perfectly reasonable and legitimate frustration, or even anger, at what Bioware have done here.

If Bioware really have just left us with these endings, then we have every right to legitimately communicate our 'dissatisfaction' to Bioware.

If Bioware are holding back on the real endings, and what we have already are simply fake Harbie indoctrination attempt 'endings' to test the actual player in some way, then we still have every right to complain and communicate our 'dissatisfaction' to Bioware for doing this to us.

Personally, I don't appreciate being 'played' like this. I paid for a game with the ending(s) they promised, and I have not yet received that game.

A lot see this possible 'withholding the real ending(s)' issue as an example of 'artistic genius'.

If it is true and this is the case, then I just see it as a staggering example of unconscionable artistic arrogance to manipulate their loyal customers emotions like this and cause us to spend additional time here, rather than in playing the actual game in full and to be fully enjoying it.

But that's all for the future, and another thread.

For now though, I'm happy to behave in a reasonable civil manner, as we all should.

Modifié par Moirai, 15 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[CDRSkyShepard]

Very well put, Moirai.

In the end, we are consumers. BioWare had even said that they "co-developed ME3 with the fans." Hehe. Yeah right. I didn't ask for this.

I fully believe in the right for a writer to take a story where they want to go...it's their concept, after all. But here's the thing: if they want it to sell, they've got to make people WANT to read it, and read it over again. There is an amount of customer appeasement to consider. Besides, BioWare could have had their artistic, dark ending and still made it satisfying to fans...they just dropped the ball something awful.

There is just no way to excuse an ending as riddled with plot holes and unanswered questions as this. Anyone check out the ME3 Final Hours stuff yet? Mac Walters even put in the notes, "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE." Um...excuse me? You guys promised us closure. Speculation is not closure. I want the game I pre-ordered in June, where the endings were supposed to be varied and the loose ends tied up, not the one you guys decided to come up with in November where it's as confusing as hell as it is unsatisfying.

[Half_Moon]

Very well said.

[Spyre2001]

I hear the Artistic Rights vs Cunsumer Rights brought up a lot. The problem though is that the Artist don't often own their own property and thus have limited control over it. It maybe the same company but once curtain key people leave that were driving the artistic vision leave it goes out of their control. Then new people take over with their own artistic vision which could drift greatly from the original. Also sometimes artist are forced to bow to executive pressures.

The Lead writer on ME3 may have been with Bioware from the start of ME but how much input did he really have back in the early days? From articles I read a while back I was under the impression that he was more of a Dialog and scene writer in the early days of the series. Which is probably why the rest of the game flows as we expect, given that he knows how those things have been framed throughout the series. But the final destination it seems was left up to him and other current staff members to create. And this is the result.

What makes things worst I feel is how easily they could of made fans over look the fumble. A proper Epilogue like in Fallout NV, Dragon Age: Origins, and etc. would of made the fans go, "Ok that was lame, but it's cool to see what happen to everyone".

Honestly I doubt we will get a re-write. I think the best we can hope for is Epilogue DLC which I recall another game doing after an unclear ending. I've written up my thoughts on an Epilogue in another thread.
http://social.biowar...5/index/9849531

[Madecologist]

Some had a thread about artisitic vision and how it is not always a valid arguement to be used. The original poster is actually an artist themselves and works for a living in the field. Basically when art become a product it abides to the same rules as any other product. This is not about depreciation of the medium, but consumers that pay money (and thus time spent to earn that money, and time spent to enjoy what they spent the money) on a product do have rights to complain and be disatisfied even if the product was a 'artistic' endevour. The artist is also accountable to providing a quality product.

Let's use the painting example, sure you don't ask a painter to redo the potrait (thank you Destructoid for doing a bad example). But usually a painting doesn't change overtime. If I buy London Landscape from Xavier Winfield (made up piece and person), it will not one day while enjoying the piece suddenly become a bloody streets of Paris. However if the painting suddenly fades with no fault of my own, you can bet I will be back at the art gallery demanding a refund or hold the artist accountable for using paint that fades when exposed to air (with no prior warning of).

[aimlessgun]

 @CDRSky

Don't forget another important aspect of the Normandy crash: it turns your crew and LI into loathsome cowards who abandoned you in your final hour. 

[DarkBladeX98]

hold the line
we got an epic line now!

Modifié par DarkBladeX98, 15 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[llllshadowllll]

Hey guys i'm joining the cause.
Hold-The-Line

[Savber100]

Officially joining the cause now.

[Madecologist]

aimlessgun wrote...

 @CDRSky

Don't forget another important aspect of the Normandy crash: it turns your crew and LI into loathsome cowards who abandoned you in your final hour. 

Not to excuse the scene (I will make it worst soon), maybe Shep has been out for hours by the time you choose and Hacket gave the general order for a full scale retreat.

Two problems, one I am sure many in your crew will stay behind and 'finish' the fight or find Shepard. But more importantly, how happy they are at the end. I know surviving a crash landing is a joyous occassion and all, but why are they so darn happy and smiling about it all. They forgot that Shepard died, and the Earth is doomed (since they probably don't know the results of the choice either).

It's analogous counterpart would be LotR, Gandolf just died and the Fellowship escapes the Mines of Moria, finally fresh air and away from the grasps of the Balrog and orcs. So they all start smiling at the beautiful scenic view of the mountaintops. Afterall they survived a Balrog of Morgoth, why not be happy.

Modifié par Madecologist, 15 mars 2012 - 10:05 .

[starkraven22]

I believe the ending is an indoctrination attempt, but if thats the case they could have continued the game after the credits to mess with fans and then get real answers and a real ending. If they had done that then it would have been one of the best finales of all time in my opinion. I am really hoping thats what they do to fix this in a dlc pack or something.

[Arathon]

I´m with the cause now. I donated an joining the fleet.
Just let me say this. People are outraged that for certain
but Bioware by all due respect, if you dont disharm the bomb
with a ending fix, it will be your own damn fault when the
people will start screaming again soon.
Okay a second point. Make the announcment soon.
You dont like the situation we dont like it so you
know what you can do to fix it.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Madecologist wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

 @CDRSky

Don't forget another important aspect of the Normandy crash: it turns your crew and LI into loathsome cowards who abandoned you in your final hour. 

Not to excuse the scene (I will make it worst soon), maybe Shep has been out for hours by the time you choose and Hacket gave the general order for a full scale retreat.

Two problems, one I am sure many in your crew will stay behind and 'finish' the fight or find Shepard. But more importantly, how happy they are at the end. I know surviving a crash landing is a joyous occassion and all, but why are they so darn happy and smiling about it all. They forgot that Shepard died, and the Earth is doomed (since they probably don't know the results of the choice either).

It's analogous counterpart would be LotR, Gandolf just died and the Fellowship escapes the Mines of Moria, finally fresh air and away from the grasps of the Balrog and orcs. So they all start smiling at the beautiful scenic view of the mountaintops. Afterall they survived a Balrog of Morgoth, why not be happy.

Everything about Gilligan's Planet is silly and makes no sense. I am in total agreement, though, and I'll add both "cowardice" and "why is everyone so darned happy?" to the "Gilligan's Planet"  section.

That LotR comparison is epic...mind if I steal that for the OP?

[Madecologist]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Everything about Gilligan's Planet is silly and makes no sense. I am in total agreement, though, and I'll add both "cowardice" and "why is everyone so darned happy?" to the "Gilligan's Planet"  section.

That LotR comparison is epic...mind if I steal that for the OP?

Go right ahead, assuming any post I do in this thread or anywhere in this forum (or in any forum that is talking about ME3) is free for use by anyone. I believe in the free proliferation of knowledge, ideas, and concepts.

[Subject M]

llllshadowllll wrote...

Hey guys i'm joining the cause.
Hold-The-Line

I am right here, by your side Krogan!
hmm.. thats some mighty strong arms you got there...

Modifié par Subject M, 15 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[Spyre2001]

Madecologist wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

 @CDRSky

Don't forget another important aspect of the Normandy crash: it turns your crew and LI into loathsome cowards who abandoned you in your final hour. 

Not to excuse the scene (I will make it worst soon), maybe Shep has been out for hours by the time you choose and Hacket gave the general order for a full scale retreat.

That makes even less sense. When Shepard comes too he hears over the comm them asking if anyone made it. Why would they be asking that if it happened hours ago? Plus if they retreated then when you get up there and open the arms the Crucible wouldn't be there.