1634 réponses à ce sujet

[Moirai]

Two interesting reviews pinched from the comments of that article:

www.dealspwn.com/mass-effect-3-review-reaping-sow-96051

venturebeat.com/2012/03/12/review-mass-effect-3/

[RubiconI7]

Syrellaris wrote...

----
We, the fans of Mass Effect, do not wish to attack, belittle, or otherwise demonize the writers who have no doubt pour their hearts and souls into this epic trilogy. However, we do want to hold BioWare accountable for the fan reaction: they warned us “some” might not like the endings, but it turns out “a lot” are not fans of the endings. I can’t imagine why fans should be willing to accept an ending to an otherwise amazing sci-fi epic that makes no sense and is riddled with plot holes.
----



You claim you do not wish to belittle or ridicule anyone, let alone stand the writers and game developers. Yet you all have no problems screaming high and low that those of us that do understand the endings and what happened or those that do not mind the endings are wrong and stupid.

There is only two real inconsistancies with the endings. That is the Gilligan world Crash landing of the Normandy and the people that step of it, as well as the "who is the Catalyst" part of your thread. everything else is perfectly explained as you play the game.

in the ending when you get hit by the reaper laser(pew pew pew) you hear perfectly fine that NO ONE made it out alive. That includes your two squadmates. mystery solved. However this is were confusion sets in. Why did bioware not made a few slight alterations on the ending, on who gets off the normandy, based on who you had with you in that mission.

If you had Liara and Garrus, logically they should not step out of the ship. fact that they did shows a problem to me. Same with other characters.

As for the catalyst itself..well you explained that perfectly.

for the rest, I have zero issues with the endings, other then the colors. even the destruction of the mass relays is told to you and why it happens.

Never said those of whom that disagrees are "stupid".
I completely agree about the two inconsistencies you mentioned.

However, I would like you (anyone) to explain the following.

1. Why the thematic clash?
The three endings are all based on the premise that creator and created cannot co-exist. Nevermind the intentions of the Guaridan. The thematic note of all three games has been that of tolerance, coexistance, hope and perseverance. The Guardian claims that its trying to protect the galaxy and that some may argue that we don't know if Geth/Quarian can stay at peace forever, but that is the point isn't it? The resounding theme throughout the trilogy? Having HOPE and FAITH ! Without it, Saren may not have been stopped, Collectors might as well as taken all the humans, and the Crucible may not have been built. Isn't the Genophage conflict Paragon resolution about placing enough FAITH in Wrex, Eve, and HOPING that they would guide the Krogans away from history?

In essence, why does Shepherd accept something that he himself has refuted?
"We can't condemn a race based on what could happen."

2. Why was the Normandy leaving? Given the personalities of EDI, Joker, would they not fight until their last breath?

3. Why/How has Shepherd survived the Citadel/explosin+landng on Earth for the destroy ending?

This second part is not actually inconsistencies, more in lines of promises-not-kept. Depends on your prefrence I guess, one can say that he does not care about what happens "after"

1. Closure...what happenend to our squad after that? What happened to the Galaxy that we helped shape? We were told our decisions matter, and yes, they have delievered that with great skill throughout...but to drop the ball in the finale..makes me sick in the stomach.
2. Relays being destroyed, cripples the entire galaxy, most stranded in Sol. That seems more like a loss than being reaped by the Reapers.

[Qardo]

Reading it all over. I have to admit that the ending was in fact not what should have. The choices weren't at all clear or even that fourth choice. There is always that Choice D that all organic life always fall back on. Even to prove to the AI child that its thinking is flawed. In fact more organic than its program can realize. Sure that AI vs Organics will exist but maybe there is common ground that they both share. The conflict to counter-judge another. Organics show this through their youth. Youth always rebel against the parents. While AI rebel against Creator. Both share one thing. Understanding will come in time with the right actions.

These right actions were never shown. Even to think that the Reapers could have noticed that the Geth, a Synthetic life forms, fighting a long side Organics. They could have given pause for a moment. Yet never shown that. That I think BioWare missed.

Now I know that point has been made maybe several times before me. Though it is rather a good point among many.

[nomoredruggs]

Ah nice to see this thread on top again.
I found this explained nicely why the endings felt a bit off
http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1


Hold the line!

[Madecologist]

Someone dug this up. A comment about the ME3 contraversy from the lead designer of DA:O. He obviously is a former employee now (left the company a few years ago). He raises some very good points.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10087809/1

[RubiconI7]

Just ran a conversation between Javik and Shepherd...

(Just brought Legion on-board, Javik wants it out of the airlock)

Shepherd: I can't see why we can't coexist. In the end, we created them.

Javik: There is no way organics and synthetics can coexist. There can only be one dominant force in the galaxy: the perfection and order of the machines or the chaos of the organics. (Yes, he actually something like this) Toss it out of the airlock.


Few hours later


The Guardian: We exist to protect organics so that the creator never gets wiped out by the created.
This cycle of chaos vs order will always continue...now pick a color and kill yourself.

Shepherd: lol ok.

Modifié par RubiconI7, 17 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[Kumekerion]

Wow, thanks for putting all of this together!

[pomrink]

I've got this posted in the feedback thread. KEEP IT UPDATED

[HackNFly]

I just sent a tweet about this thread to jessica merizan

[CDRSkyShepard]

Thank you, pomrink and HackNFly! I am going through the pages here and cleaning up some loose bits to put into the OP. I'm updating like a boss. Keep the info coming!

That reminds me, someone tweeted an article earlier today with an article I didn't have yet...I shall go find it.

[epicMahoney]

Good stuff

[MintyCool]

Here's my contribution to a thread the devs wont even spend time wiping there *** with....!!!!


Checkmate: Why in the End Your Opinion Simply Doesn't Matter

Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

The Pleasures of Not Knowing:

If you were a consistent member on the Mass Effect forums between the 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd installments, you would be known as a Knowingness Addict.

You are desperate to consume anything relating to this saga. Whether it be books, comics, etc. When a leak occured or a screenshot was released you would swarm like a pack of cockroaches to analyze it.

During this time you would receive opinions, rants, and raves from others. When hundreds of strangers enter our thoughts, a tiny part of our own self assessment is diminished. You are denying yourself the pleasure of the discovery.

After ME3 was released, what did you do once you finished the tale? More than likely, you went back and either watched the alternative endings on YouTube or replayed alternate paths yourself. Again, fueled only by needing to know everything, desperate to know all other choices one could make.

You ended up learning everything about the man behind the curtain, did you feel better? No, it only fueled your impulses for a more potent fix.

You bend unknowingly to your impulses. You replace others experiences with your own. Under the right conditions, you are prone to losing your individuality by becoming absorbed into a mob mentality. You became part of the Mass Effect Hivemind.

Why In The End Your Opinion Doesn't Matter:

In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset.

View it in the same light as a diehard sports fan that is upset with his popular team; in protest, he decides to not attend any more games. Does ownership care? No. Why? It's because someone else will fill that void with-in seconds, enjoying the game instead of you. Overtime, your willpower will shatter and you'll end up becoming a fan again the next chance you get.

Bioware is the RPG equivalent to a popular sports team like the Chicago Bulls. When it comes down to it, and everyone is buying the new Bioware AAA blockbuster; your impulses will give way and your brain will be firing synapses at a constant pace... desperate for that fix.

You will dance with the devil, and Bioware knows it.

You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?

It takes work to be angry; you're intellectually incapable of focusing for a long enough period of time to actually cause change. Most of you are incapable of even reading to this point of the article. The majority of these people are peers/allies who have joined your cause.

At the moment, the public views you as the political equivalent to the Occupy Wall street crowd. You are a joke. You come up with ridiculous theories that only spook conspirators' would believe; you introduce props and cheap gags like charities that only smudge up your message. You are simply noise.

In the end all of this is great news because; the last 15 minutes of this tale are actually quite good...

Why The Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending.

2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third
addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.

Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality, Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father, Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created.

3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.

4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.

5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.

Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.

Midichlorians anyone? You do not need to know how exactly the force works...

This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived.

You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought.

6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.

Checkmate.

GO TEAM! WINNING!!

Modifié par MintyCool, 17 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[pomrink]

Minty you should probably read the pr control thread. What happens if we get what we want, how will you react minty? just curious

[Arriths]

Amazing post, thank you for doing this. Sums up how we pretty much all feel. please listen bioware please.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Awesome thread. Holding the line.

[allyon]

bumb

[pomrink]

eh?

[Njald]

Congratualation Minty, your low standards have yielded results. You now have a worse company and poor writing in games you can happily pay for. Clearly you are content with your role as master chessplayer trying to be clever or independant with your witty ending "checkmate". Unfortunatly you aren't persuading anyone but yourself and me telling you this won't change the fact. There are tonnes of well written discussions on this that you either ignore or don't care about and that's fine.
I myself aren't that refined when it comes to appreciating music and can take enjoyment in music that others find trite or plain useless. But what I don't do is trying to act smug and superior when the very fact that you miss the point is your main argument. That you know very little and care even less isn't a boon is not something you should be proud of.
Anyway, you got me to respond so I guess your little selfcongratualtory post served it's purpose. May I sugest you go replay ME3 for it's great replayability now? Imagine what would happen if you changed your choices? (hint: exactly the same: everyone dies and Normandy plays Gilligans Island.)

Modifié par Njald, 17 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[UndeadTRex]

I really hope they do something. I just want a clear and fantastic ending to something I've spent a lot of time and effort on.

[Sayuri Belle]

Fantastic, all in one place for information.

Thank you.

[turian_rage]

Hold the line!

[Kumekerion]

Hold the line!

[Koobarex]

Holding the line!!

[TheSteelArcher]

The thing that bothers me the most is Bioware's insistence on dodging any direct response to the ending and any plan to fix it. I mean, there's no way they can mess up an ending fixing DLC, right? ...right?

[CDRSkyShepard]

MintyCool wrote...

*snip*

*Cracks knuckles* Challege accepted.

First of all, don't compare my post with toilet paper. It really doesn't make you sound like a reasonable, level-headed person.

The Displeasure of Not Knowing

I don't appreciate the insinuation that I am just some mindless automoton that is caught up in all the drama. It's not true. I also don't appreciate the insinuation that everyone else who disagrees with you are just mindless automotons. Sure, there are many who just go along with the crowd, but there are legitimate arguments against this ending, and why it is completely unworthy of a series you claim to love. 

I will respect your opinion on the endings. I won't shove something in your face and say, "Hey, but don't you see this ending doesn't make sense? Don't you see? Don't you see???" and do it until I force you to agree with me. You want to know why? Because I know it won't work. People are set in their ways and their views, and I cannot ever hope to change it. So I don't see the point in doing the same to me or anyone else who disagrees with you.

Why, In the End, My Opinion DOES Matter

If, in the end, my opinion does not, in fact, matter, then BioWare is the ultimate fan troll of all time. They tell us that our opinions and feedback do matter to them. If it doesn't in reality, then they're outright lying to us, and we have bigger issues to worry about.

Having an opinion about a product is also the hallmark of a responsible consumer. If businesses are smart, they'll respect their consumers and their opinions. Any time spent taking a business class will tell you that much. I'll direct you to this article by Forbes, which is very well respected in the business world. This quote in particular is what I want to showcase:

As far as I can tell, it basically comes down to this: being a smart consumer is more than just voting with your wallet. Half the time it’s too late for that. It’s easy to say “Well, if you don’t like the product, don’t buy it” but it doesn’t really work that way in practice. 

...
Isn’t it better to complain? Isn’t it better to try to make a change than to simply give up? Isn’t it better for developers and consumers alike to communicate this sort of thing rather than to just give up on one another? 

I think that this also debunks your argument about how we're the laughingstock of the media right now. Penny Arcade doesn't think there's anything bad about the endings, but they aren't saying anything horrible about us, either. Forbes is basically jumping in to defend us as consumers against Destructoid and IGN, who are really the only two I can think of right off the top of my head who are really coming down hard. Even Kotaku, while at first wasn't a fan of our movement, changed their tune.

You say I'll dance with the devil when push comes to shove? No, not really. I'm not a hardcore gamer. I don't get that twitch to buy the latest title. With games being $60 new, at least, I consider my game purchases carefully. I didn't game at all before I discovered Mass Effect. I came to appreciate it as a sci-fi epic more than a game. Sure, as a result I've picked up other games, but I am a far cry from the rabid fan who MUST get the next BioWare title. I don't guarantee I'll buy or not buy from BioWare again; I always weigh the purchase of each new game on its own merits, nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: The fact that we got BioWare to publicly apologize for Deception is also huge proof that our opinions are important. Not only that, it sets a precedent: BioWare will listen to fans and respond accordingly.

Why the Ending Doesn't Work (but that's just my opinion)

1. Some might feel the sacrifice of their Shepard is right for them. Right for their Shepard. I'm sure it would be satisfying in that case. But, for some, sacrificing their Shepard doesn't feel right, and they should have the freedom to choose that for their Shepard.

You also seem to forget that Shepard can live. But he/she can only live in a Destroy ending...but the Citadel is blown up in that ending. How does that work? Most believe Shepard wakes up in London...how does that work? Unanswered questions: the kind BioWare said we wouldn't be left with.

2. Philosopical themes are all well and good. I love them in my sci-fi. So much so, I was shocked and appaled when so many of them were completely abandoned in the last 10 minutes of the game.

One theme is friendship. By stranding the crew on a random planet for no good reason (and no explanation as for why Joker decided to turn coward and run away from the battle in the first place), they undermined the theme of friendship and togetherness. These are the people that have been with Shepard since the beginning. If Shepard lives, we should get the chance to have our friends by our side, unwavering...there from beginning to bitter end, and there to help us rebuild civilization.

Another theme is hope in the face of adversity. I will point out later how the Guardian basically tells us there is no hope and Shepard basically just rolls over and says, "Fine." Not that Shepard shouldn't feel dispair and loss in the middle of a galactic war, but in the end, none of that hope matters. An ending that has hope and an ending that is bittersweet aren't mutually exclusive.

3. In the end, BioWare is the creator, but they are also a business. They created a game for the consumers, even going so far as to recieve consumer input to make it in order to make it a better experience for us. It's up to a business to create a product that the consumers want. They will tell you that it has XYZ feature or does ABC thing in order to convince you to buy their product. There is nothing "entitled" about complaining about what you were promised and didn't recieve.

Casey Hudson himself said that it wouldn't ultimately come down to A, B, and C at the end of ME3. I guess he wasn't stretching the truth there...it came down to red, blue, and green. The only variations being the fate of Earth and Shepard. In all the endings, the galaxy is (somewhat) saved, the mass relays are destroyed, the allied fleet is stranded at Earth, and the Normandy is stranded God knows where. Tell me, what major variation is there besides "We blew them up, we destroyed them, or we forced everyone to meld together?" None. We got A, B, or C.

Speaking of forcing to meld together...who is Shepard to decide that for everyone? Just wondering.

4. The debate concerning the co-existence of organics and synthetics is a noble one. BioWare had done a very good job of it in the series so far. However, they built up the theme of co-existence with the quarian/geth story arc, where you could get them to work together, then threw that out the window at the very end. 

The Guardian says that synthetics will just keep killing organics. That the two can never live in peace. At no point did Shepard have the option to say, "Hey, wait a second, I got synthetics to work with the quarians. They only were forced into violence, they want to co-exist in peace if possible." The Guardian basically tells us that there is no hope for such a beautiful co-existence between synthetics and organics. To me, that's a slap in the face. So much for hope.

5. I don't think any Star Wars fans asked for midichlorians. Pretty darn sure.

I didn't have to look very hard for plot holes, either. My first reaction to the Normandy sequence was, "Huh? How in the world...?" I also didn't have to look very hard for, "Wait, I thought my squaddies were dead, now they're on the Normandy?" I'm not dense. It is the obligation of the storyteller to fill in the gaps, not leave fans scratching their heads. These are not inconsistencies, these are gaps and leaps in logic that need to be explained.

6. You seem to think that most of us disagree with you when it comes to 99% of this game. It was brilliant. It was a fun, fun ride. I loved it...right up until Harbinger hit me. Then, from there, nothing made sense, and not in a good way. Not in the way that made me think, "Huh, this is profound" but in a way that made me think, "Huh, this is messed up." 

In many cases, it's the fact we loved the rest of the game that really makes us want to have the ability to enjoy the last 10 minutes of it. Some people enjoyed it, and that's great to those who did. I personally don't want them to take these endings away from you if you liked them...I just want new ones for the rather large number of us who despised them. Indeed, you are entitled to your opinion. Let me be entitled to mine.

Looks like chess isn't your game. Shall we try Risk, instead?

Modifié par CDRSkyShepard, 17 mars 2012 - 06:14 .