1634 réponses à ce sujet

[2lame4fame]

hold the line +1

[Sanrei]

Liber320 wrote...

Indeed. I didn't think it was possible, but the last five minutes managed to destroy the entire series in my eyes.

I didn't believe it was possible either. I was in denial right up until the end.
Deep down I may still be in denial because I don't understand how Bioware could do this to their fans. This isn't the game developer I fell in love with. It's like waking up to a stranger in your bed.

Why would Bioware destroy an entire series(and an epicly amazing one at that) with the last five to ten minutes of the game? To make an impression? The only impression they've left is the one in my gut where the ending punched me.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Hey guys! I'm in Dallas right now and the hotel is snazzy, but has a very poor internet connection, so I'm afraid updates will have to wait until I get home tomorrow. Keep sending me stuff, though! I'll make sure it happens.

Keep holding the line!

[Spyre2001]

Quething wrote...
To me it's honestly the biggest problem with the endings - even above and beyond the thematic betrayal and total incoherence. Destroying the relays breaks the setting, and they've put so, so much time and asked us to put so, so much interest and loyalty into this vast, gorgeous, potential-laden setting. ME could have been the next Star Trek! Destroy the relays and it's like... if Kirk somehow erased warp technology in the finale of the original series. Makes it hard to offer up a plausible Picard after that.

At first I too was surprised by the destroying of the relays. But the more I think about it I realize it's not completely the end of the universe. For one FTL space travel is still possible. The Relays are just there to make things faster and to ensure races advance along curtain paths in the galaxy making them easier to harvest.

Their destruction I think is meant to symbolize the breaking of the chains funneling all life along set paths. They were now free to go where ever they wanted. The side effect of this being of course that the old routes of travel and connections were no longer viable. This creating huge political and economical issues further compounding the unansered questions the fan base has.

People talk about the "space magic" regarding the various colors. But honestly most sci-fi is "space magic" because it's just made up sciences that tries to be as close to real science right up to the point it needs to do something not possible under current known tech. I mention this as pertaining to the Star Trek reference. If Kirk had destroyed warp travel then Picard would of used Trans-Warp, Hyperdrive, Space-Folding, or whatever to keep the stories going.

In Mass Effect the Relays don't prevent the underlying technology from working anymore. The "Mass Effect" is one of the basic laws of physics in that universe like Gravity.

I wrote up a fairly long post on how I think they could of for the most part kept the current ending but not of left such a bitter taste in our mouths over it. In short a proper Epilogue explaining what happen to everyone and the galaxy as a whole after the cinematic would of been nice. This is important in RPGs and has been common in a lot of them since the very early days of gaming. An epilogue lets you know how all your choices effected things and was one of my favorite things in the fallout series (except FO3 which fumbled bad on it's ending, though not as bad as ME3 does). The link to my post is below.

http://social.biowar...5/index/9849531

Besides the Epilogue I mention that at the end with the old man and child it should of ended with a pan up to the night sky and you see a Mass Relay under construction. After all I recall it mentioned some where (perhaps codex) that there was talk of potentially trying to build their own Relays to expand the network. With the Relays all gone they would have reasons to finally try and build new ones.

Honestly the ending I was expecting, along with I'm sure many others, was get to the citadel have some boss fight then active the crucible. Sit back and watch the end movie followed by Epilogue (Which is a REQUIREMENT in any GOOD RPG where you have a lot of choices, still can't get past how they thought it was ok to leave out).

The reapers motivations I thought would be interesting to find out but given all their mystery and the constant saying they were "unknowable" I figured they would just skip over it. It's like one of those mysteries you never revel because the not knowing is what makes it interesting, like Doctor Who and his name. Doctor Who fans are even more rabid then this community and I think if a writer ever did give him a name that person would never get a good nights sleep again because of all the fans upset by the name chosen that are beating down his door. The need to "revel" all mysteries is often the undoing of a series, especially ones centered around mystery.

The destruction of the Mass Relays was defiantly a surprise. But it could of been an easily forgiven one if properly explained in the Epilogue as to why it was not the end. Combined with the above mentioned panning up on the new one being built.

Instead of this hollow empty feeling along with confusion over the logical inconsistencies the current ending gives us. I would of instead had hope for the future and would of been excited at the possible teaser for ME4. The forums would probably be a buzz with speculation on what the rebuilt Relay network would be like and how long after ME3 it takes place. The series could of turned more into the Star Wars universe where they have games spaced out hundreds or thousands of years apart as the rise and fall of various powers.

I know BW had said they only wanted to do a Trilogy a while back. But since getting bought out by EA you know that is unlikely. It's like how Bungie only wanted to do a Trilogy with Halo but then got forced by MS into those spin off games and eventually the franchise was given to another studio to keep it going.

Best way to try and keep it as just a Trilogy is intentionally sabotage the ending, Trash/Burn and Run or something along those lines. I forget the literary term it was mentioned in another post that I can't find off hand. This is often done by writers who want to make sure no one can continue the story after they are done. Perhaps because they don't own the rights to their own work anymore or don't want someone else working on it after they pass.

The more I think about it the more this conclusion seems oddly plausible. Because the alternative is that the people are BW were so blind they couldn't see all the logical inconsistencies and thematical fails or worst yet they saw them but didn't care. These issues are small ones that could be easily over looked they are gaping holes in reason. This link which is already been post goes into more detail on what I mean on the endings issues from a screen writer's prospective.

http://social.biowar.../index/10022779

I mean because how out of touch with the fan base do they have to be to think that this ending was going to be met with anything other then outrage. I mean I have yet to meet anyone who thinks the ending was acceptable (other than forum trolls). I'm in a MMO guild and thus far everyone in it who has played and finished ME3 thinks the ending sucked. Also gaming friends that I've known since High School and College as well as my Co-Workers who have played ME3 and finished it think the ending is bad as well.

Well this post is getting long and still so much to say on so many things. I think I'll hold off till later.

[Moirai]

Spyre2001 wrote...

Quething wrote...
To me it's honestly the biggest problem with the endings - even above and beyond the thematic betrayal and total incoherence. Destroying the relays breaks the setting, and they've put so, so much time and asked us to put so, so much interest and loyalty into this vast, gorgeous, potential-laden setting. ME could have been the next Star Trek! Destroy the relays and it's like... if Kirk somehow erased warp technology in the finale of the original series. Makes it hard to offer up a plausible Picard after that.

At first I too was surprised by the destroying of the relays. But the more I think about it I realize it's not completely the end of the universe. For one FTL space travel is still possible. The Relays are just there to make things faster and to ensure races advance along curtain paths in the galaxy making them easier to harvest.

Their destruction I think is meant to symbolize the breaking of the chains funneling all life along set paths. They were now free to go where ever they wanted. The side effect of this being of course that the old routes of travel and connections were no longer viable. This creating huge political and economical issues further compounding the unansered questions the fan base has.

People talk about the "space magic" regarding the various colors. But honestly most sci-fi is "space magic" because it's just made up sciences that tries to be as close to real science right up to the point it needs to do something not possible under current known tech. I mention this as pertaining to the Star Trek reference. If Kirk had destroyed warp travel then Picard would of used Trans-Warp, Hyperdrive, Space-Folding, or whatever to keep the stories going.


<Forgive the SNIP, but since your post is still directly before mine...>


Well this post is getting long and still so much to say on so many things. I think I'll hold off till later.

From a personal perspective, my main issue with the destruction of the relays is one of satisfaction at the ending.

I think most people agree that it would be better not to rely on the relays, given their origins and purpose. However, it would, for me, be more satisfying if we were left with the notion that they would be replaced in due course, rather than the galaxy being forced into doing so, with all the logistical nightmares that would be involved in co-ordinating the efforts.

The other issue is simply down to the fact that it ruins some of the 'battles' Shepard wins. One of those being Tali and the other Quarians being able to finally return to Rannoch and settle down. With the relays gone, that now becomes problematic at best, and incredibily difficult at worst as Rannoch is pretty much on the other side of the Galaxy. Given that the Milky Way is approx 100,000 light years in diameter, even if ME's FTL drives are capable of ten times the speed of light, you're talking about 10,000 years to travel from one side to the other.

Naturally, that's a bit flexible, since we don't know how fast ME's FTL drives actually are. But still...

Modifié par Moirai, 19 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Spyre2001]

Midz wrote...

But is what you want productive ?

Video and PC games sales are slumping clearly some companies will go.

Thus the massive effort to expand the userbase failure to do so means no production .

Production costs have continued to rise while revenues sales have falllen overall .

The negative storm attached to the endings will probably effect sales this will probably the longer it continues lead to diminishing possibility of any revision as the economics of so doing make less sense .

Damned if you accept the ending
Damned if you dont .

A real dilemma .

.Bioware made an error of judgement ; the reaction is understandable but the reaction may result ( will result in my opinion ) in less and less possibility of change .

The business world is like nature. Natural selection dicates that some must fall. It maybe sound harsh but this is the way of the world. Those who fail to adapt are doomed to oblivion. The problem is the world is changing and it's changing fast. These large companies continue to do what has worked for them in the past because it worked in the past and are slow to change.

What's worst is they also try to steer their franchise into one size fits all mold. This leads to the trying to expand thier fanbase by taking out elementals that are what interested the fans in the first place. And putting in elements that appeal to a different fanbase.

It's like all the FPS games trying to be more like Call of Duty, or the MMOs trying to copy WoW. If players want to play CoD or WoW then they will just go play those games. People look for different games because they are looking for something different. By pushing titles to become more similar it muddies the waters and makes customers less likely to buy their games. After all why pay $60 for an almost identical experiance to what you can already get?

You expand the fan base by actually catering to fans and not by trying to change a product to fit the expectations of a completley different fan base. People only have so much time and money. To many companies try and target the more casual crowd instead of being happy with what they already got. They ****** off the core fan base who leave and then can't draw in the casual players because it was something they were never going to be interested in to begin with.

For example say a sports car maker deciding they want to make family cars instead because it's a larger market then wonder why none of their sports car customers buy their cars anymore and the family car customers don't come flocking over, which is probably because they arleady have a brand their happy with and don't want to change. Thus the company folds and the business executives and marketing guys all try to explain to stock holders how their "brilliant" plan for growing the business by targeting a larger audiance was a "sure thing". This is what I feel like the gaming industry has become and then they wonder why the have huge flops and rising cost.

If the car company mentioned above was "Smart" they would instead start a separate line and keep the current sports car line in tact. How this translates into gaming is by having spin off games that take place in the same universe. This is the correct way to grow the fan base as you have different genres in the same universe which increases the likely hood more fans with be drawn in and the possibility that they might be interest in the other titles.

More and more I find the AAA titles are becoming rubish. I've bought more Indy titles in the last few years then I have AAA titles and got a lot more bang for my buck. With most of those games being high quality and reasonably priced I don't by the rising cost of production line big production houses keep spinning. I think it's more a problem of to much overhead caused by to large of a corporate info structure. I accounting back in College we covered how larger companies can actually be less efficient due to all the bureaucracy and middle management positions that are created just to manage such a large organization.

On a Brighter note here are some of the Indy games I've bought in recent years, Minecraft, Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Bastion, Hoard, Star Ruler, Atom Zombie Smasher, Plants vs Zombies, Greed Corp, From Dust, Achron, Trine, Terraria, and many more. None of which cost over $30 and I have gotten more enjoyment out of them then a lot of the older AAA titles which I finished in less than 10 hours that had zero replayability.

[Spyre2001]

Moirai wrote...

The other issue is simply down to the fact that it ruins some of the 'battles' Shepard wins. One of those being Tali and the other Quarians being able to finally return to Rannoch and settle down. With the relays gone, that now becomes problematic at best, and incredibily difficult at worst as Rannoch is pretty much on the other side of the Galaxy. Given that the Milky Way is approx 100,000 light years in diameter, even if ME's FTL drives are capable of ten times the speed of light, you're talking about 10,000 years to travel from one side to the other.

Naturally, that's a bit flexible, since we don't know how fast ME's FTL drives actually are. But still...

Taken from http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL


FTL drives are devices which allow ships to travel at FTL speeds through space. FTL drive cores work by exposing element zero to electric currents, creating mass effect fields. It reduces the mass of an object—such as a starship—to a point where velocities faster than the speed of light are possible. With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise.

So if that is correct it means it would take 100,000 / 12 = 8333 Days / 365 = 22.8 Years to cross the galaxy. I assume the description in the wiki is taken from the codex in one of the games. But honestly that makes things seems a bit more reasonable, heck even in Star Trek it was going to take Voyager 70 years to cross the galaxy which means ME has faster FTL than Star Trek. Even if you drop it to 10 light years per day it's still 27.4 Years to cross the galaxy.

Remember in the game when your burning fuel to go between stars that is because your using FTL instead of the Relays. And given how far apart stars are, even the close ones, you would have to be moving fast to do all that traveling in enough time that the story would fit, otherwise it would be like months are years pass during a single game.

So getting around is not going to be as instant as it once was. And the Quarians basically have half a generational trip home.

EDIT: And given what I recall by the position of Earth on the map it's not directly oppisite the Quarian's homeworld or at the edge of the galaxy. So it's probably more like 70K light years are so away meaning a 16 year trip.

I'm glad now I looked that up in the wiki and it had some figures. Make me feel things aren't as screwed over with the loss of the Relays. Sure it's bad but not as much  left to speculation in terms of how fast their FTL is.

Modifié par Spyre2001, 19 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[pomrink]

Spyre2001 wrote...

Moirai wrote...

The other issue is simply down to the fact that it ruins some of the 'battles' Shepard wins. One of those being Tali and the other Quarians being able to finally return to Rannoch and settle down. With the relays gone, that now becomes problematic at best, and incredibily difficult at worst as Rannoch is pretty much on the other side of the Galaxy. Given that the Milky Way is approx 100,000 light years in diameter, even if ME's FTL drives are capable of ten times the speed of light, you're talking about 10,000 years to travel from one side to the other.

Naturally, that's a bit flexible, since we don't know how fast ME's FTL drives actually are. But still...

Taken from http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL


FTL drives are devices which allow ships to travel at FTL speeds through space. FTL drive cores work by exposing element zero to electric currents, creating mass effect fields. It reduces the mass of an object—such as a starship—to a point where velocities faster than the speed of light are possible. With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise.

So if that is correct it means it would take 100,000 / 12 = 8333 Days / 365 = 22.8 Years to cross the galaxy. I assume the description in the wiki is taken from the codex in one of the games. But honestly that makes things seems a bit more reasonable, heck even in Star Trek it was going to take Voyager 70 years to cross the galaxy which means ME has faster FTL than Star Trek. Even if you drop it to 10 light years per day it's still 27.4 Years to cross the galaxy.

Remember in the game when your burning fuel to go between stars that is because your using FTL instead of the Relays. And given how far apart stars are, even the close ones, you would have to be moving fast to do all that traveling in enough time that the story would fit, otherwise it would be like months are years pass during a single game.

So getting around is not going to be as instant as it once was. And the Quarians basically have half a generational trip home.

That wiki has inncorrect info about FTL travel. FTL drives move 12 times the speed of light.

[HumingTurtle]

Hold the bloody line.

[Spyre2001]

pomrink wrote...

That wiki has inncorrect info about FTL travel. FTL drives move 12 times the speed of light.

Then where are the correct figures? Because 12 times the speed of light would mean that round trip travel to the closest star to earth would take over a year. Now if you look at some of the star clusters you fly around in the game they are probably similarly spaced which means it would take years to explore just one star cluster. So Shepard would of died of old age by the time you finished all the scanning in the second game.

[Sanrei]

In regards to the relays being destroyed, if destroying one takes out an entire star system, in my eyes destroying all of them would plausibly destroy a lot of populated star systems.

It's like changing the rules so it can fit your poorly designed plot device.

[Moirai]

Spyre2001 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

That wiki has inncorrect info about FTL travel. FTL drives move 12 times the speed of light.

Then where are the correct figures? Because 12 times the speed of light would mean that round trip travel to the closest star to earth would take over a year. Now if you look at some of the star clusters you fly around in the game they are probably similarly spaced which means it would take years to explore just one star cluster. So Shepard would of died of old age by the time you finished all the scanning in the second game.

Arguably, for me, it's not so much the actual timeframe as it is the satisfaction of knowing that Tali and Co. will be able to get home in a 'reasonable' amount of time to be able to take advantage of their reclaimed homeworld.

I just don't find having to speculate about that timeframe to be satisfying at the very end of the whole trilogy.

[pomrink]

Err. It was mentioned in some ingame dialogue and discussed on these threads. I don't know where to find it you're best bet would be making a thread to find out the correct info.

[Foxcat]

I wish to again throw my support 100% behind everything the OP has stated. Were Bioware to act in accordance with his statement I'd be 100% satisfied.

[magikbbg]

 Hey, someone took the time compiled a ton of data and organize... thanks CDRSkyShepard. We need to keep this threat bumped with comments, additions, revisions, something more than just "hey bump". Give it 5 Stars and let's keep holding the line! Also that "PR" related thread has to stay bumped as well... Anyways I'm with you all! They started it, lets finish it. Just don't get disappointed easily by their weird twitter/facebook posts - there's a saying - there is no honor among thieves. 

[Sanrei]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but Angry Joe(a game reviewer) made a video called '10 reasons we hate Mass Effect 3's ending.' He makes a lot of points we've all made but it's a good watch. And it seems he's more.. sad than angry this time around. I guess there's only so much fight in a person, eh?


youtu.be/6M0Cf864P7E

I really love the quotes at the beginning and how they contrast with what actually happened.

Modifié par PedEgg, 19 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[Ender99]

Of course we'll finish it. They outright lied to us on multiple occasions and I think they need to be held accountable for it. This isn't just going to blow over. We are in it for the long run and there are consequences for betraying your fans.

[James9749]

I am in agreement with this thread.
Hold the line!

[Intrepid Lynx]

Here in support.

[Reptilian Rob]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Hey guys! I'm in Dallas right now and the hotel is snazzy, but has a very poor internet connection, so I'm afraid updates will have to wait until I get home tomorrow. Keep sending me stuff, though! I'll make sure it happens.

Keep holding the line!

Thanks Sky, you're a real hero.

[The Nur]

Looking forward to the updates!

This is exactly the sort of positive collection of feedback that can help Bioware listen.

[Moirai]

PedEgg wrote...

Don't know if this has been posted yet but Angry Joe(a game reviewer) made a video called '10 reasons we hate Mass Effect 3's ending.' He makes a lot of points we've all made but it's a good watch. And it seems he's more.. sad than angry this time around. I guess there's only so much fight in a person, eh?


youtu.be/6M0Cf864P7E

I really love the quotes at the beginning and how they contrast with what actually happened.

Yeah, it's a real good vid. Very nicely put together.

Pity we can't force all of Bioware to watch it on a loop until they get it...

[FyreSyder]

CDRSkyShepard, you MUST add this video to the fan video list in the original post.

AngryJoeShow sums EVERYTHING up in a clear and objective way:

 

Modifié par FyreSyder, 19 mars 2012 - 09:46 .

[FyreSyder]

I hope Bioware are reading everything here....

[Moirai]

Me too.

I did send a link to Jessica, so hopefully so. Might tweet a link to Mike Gamble too...