Looking good. Keep the pressure up!
The Data Cache: Your One-Stop Retake Resource (UPDATED 6/16!)
Débuté par
CDRSkyShepard
, mars 13 2012 04:43
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#1252
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 05:03
Sanrei
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Angry Joe on the Extended Cut DLC.
This man knows what it's all about.
This man knows what it's all about.
Modifié par PedEgg, 07 avril 2012 - 05:03 .
#1253
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 09:04
Sanrei
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"I’ve been actively pointing out on the RME3 Facebook; this is a won battle, but not a won war.It’s easy to dismiss the first thing you’re offered as all you’re
going to get. But what’s the real perspective here? I don’t see that I’m
being handed the “Extended DLC” or nothing else. I see this as the
first stage of a haggle.They’ve offered us something while asserting it’s all they can do.
Well, when I bought my car, the salesman asserted to me that the best he
could do was $2000 more than I paid for the car in the end. I didn’t
give up when I was handed the price I didn’t want, and I’m not going to
give up on the RME movement just because the “first offer” by EA/BioWare
is potentially a crap one.Players should recall that last month, we were told they most
certainly couldn’t do anything about the ending. Now they’re saying they
can do something about the ending, but most certainly can’t really
change it. They’re on the slippery slope of negotiation and trying to
dress it up like a solid brick wall. The solution here is not to give up
or call it won, but keep haggling and ignore that illusion of
wall-ness.Will I download the DLC? Sure, it’s free. Will I stop demanding the
properly completed product if that DLC fails to do so? Absolutely not."
This is a comment to the newest Forbes article concerning the DLC announcement, pointed out by a redditor.
It's definitely an interesting way to look at it.
going to get. But what’s the real perspective here? I don’t see that I’m
being handed the “Extended DLC” or nothing else. I see this as the
first stage of a haggle.They’ve offered us something while asserting it’s all they can do.
Well, when I bought my car, the salesman asserted to me that the best he
could do was $2000 more than I paid for the car in the end. I didn’t
give up when I was handed the price I didn’t want, and I’m not going to
give up on the RME movement just because the “first offer” by EA/BioWare
is potentially a crap one.Players should recall that last month, we were told they most
certainly couldn’t do anything about the ending. Now they’re saying they
can do something about the ending, but most certainly can’t really
change it. They’re on the slippery slope of negotiation and trying to
dress it up like a solid brick wall. The solution here is not to give up
or call it won, but keep haggling and ignore that illusion of
wall-ness.Will I download the DLC? Sure, it’s free. Will I stop demanding the
properly completed product if that DLC fails to do so? Absolutely not."
This is a comment to the newest Forbes article concerning the DLC announcement, pointed out by a redditor.
It's definitely an interesting way to look at it.
#1254
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 09:16
nytraven
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I was wondering about something the other day, and this is about the most civil thread here ATM. I wonder how the percentage of players truly upset with the ending versus satisfied players relates to the percentage of long term bioware players versus first time customers. Everyone always throws around the (ballpark) 50K versus 1Mil ratio.
Anyway I am hopeful but skeptical and I agree with Angry Joe and MikeB . Gamebreaker also had a decent video about the ending back in march if you want to add it to the first page. And MikeB loved Mass Effect enough that he and his bandmate remixed the Leaving Earth theme from the demo before the game even released.
Anyway I am hopeful but skeptical and I agree with Angry Joe and MikeB . Gamebreaker also had a decent video about the ending back in march if you want to add it to the first page. And MikeB loved Mass Effect enough that he and his bandmate remixed the Leaving Earth theme from the demo before the game even released.
#1257
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 09:16
Madecologist
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The Retake founders say they are catiously optimistic, I say I am more critically pessimistic.
I leave enough room to be proven wrong but I won't be suprised or disappointed if it is disappointing... because that is what I am expecting. I am hard guy to please.
But seriously, the real issue here that the ending has two critical component why it was so... bad.
1) Thematically out of place, trying to pull off something that didn't need to be done. You can have depth without needing to be 'deep', and being deep for deep sake is just pretentious and makes you shallow in the end.
2) Execution. If they pull this off (which will be hard considering what they have), they will be able to fix this. However at that point we will have a well executed thematically 'flawed' ending. It will be much better than what we got but it would still be off in my book.
People have to learn, an artistic vision, an idea, a concept can be... bad, out of place, or just a no no. At least it is free so it is not like we need to pay for it. But BW have their work cut out for them and even if they do pull it off, I will always be subpar.
I leave enough room to be proven wrong but I won't be suprised or disappointed if it is disappointing... because that is what I am expecting. I am hard guy to please.
But seriously, the real issue here that the ending has two critical component why it was so... bad.
1) Thematically out of place, trying to pull off something that didn't need to be done. You can have depth without needing to be 'deep', and being deep for deep sake is just pretentious and makes you shallow in the end.
2) Execution. If they pull this off (which will be hard considering what they have), they will be able to fix this. However at that point we will have a well executed thematically 'flawed' ending. It will be much better than what we got but it would still be off in my book.
People have to learn, an artistic vision, an idea, a concept can be... bad, out of place, or just a no no. At least it is free so it is not like we need to pay for it. But BW have their work cut out for them and even if they do pull it off, I will always be subpar.
Modifié par Madecologist, 07 avril 2012 - 09:36 .
#1258
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:02
Sanrei
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Yeah Mad, as an artist(or at least someone who is fully aware of the artistic process and all that comes with it) this whole artistic integrity argument is insulting.
They remind me of what some artists become after they have a few successes under their belt: Arrogant, egotistical and closed to any suggestions or criticism of their art. They use the excuse: I've had my work in galleries before and I don't have to listen to peons like you. My work is fine just the way it is, you just don't understand it.
They stunt their own growth as an artist and become general douche bags to people that see potential in them and want to be helpful.
I'm not saying that all the devs are like that but the stubborn decisions that Bioware/EA have been making on an objectively bad ending in the name of art has really made them come across that way.
I've said before that I'd rather pay for an alternative to the poo we were given instead of just getting more poo for free, or little baubles to decorate my poo with. You can't build upon a sandy foundation and have it work.
EDIT: Hell, the way they keep repeating how proud they are of their devs(like we don't appreciate them enough) also makes it look like they're afraid to provide an alternative because it might hurt someone's feelings. I've had my work torn to bits before by peers and people I respect. I took it like an adult and I'm a better artist because of it.
They remind me of what some artists become after they have a few successes under their belt: Arrogant, egotistical and closed to any suggestions or criticism of their art. They use the excuse: I've had my work in galleries before and I don't have to listen to peons like you. My work is fine just the way it is, you just don't understand it.
They stunt their own growth as an artist and become general douche bags to people that see potential in them and want to be helpful.
I'm not saying that all the devs are like that but the stubborn decisions that Bioware/EA have been making on an objectively bad ending in the name of art has really made them come across that way.
I've said before that I'd rather pay for an alternative to the poo we were given instead of just getting more poo for free, or little baubles to decorate my poo with. You can't build upon a sandy foundation and have it work.
EDIT: Hell, the way they keep repeating how proud they are of their devs(like we don't appreciate them enough) also makes it look like they're afraid to provide an alternative because it might hurt someone's feelings. I've had my work torn to bits before by peers and people I respect. I took it like an adult and I'm a better artist because of it.
Modifié par PedEgg, 07 avril 2012 - 10:08 .
#1259
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:08
Madecologist
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You know PedEgg, reading your comment made me think about AngryJoe's special on the DLC news. He has a bit where Sinfield rips into George when George pulls off an Artistic Integrity stunt, except he sticks Casey's head onto George's instead.
But yeah that kind of attitude is not just a pain in the arse in art only.
"Scientically speaking I can ascertain that..... with my scientific qualifications I can assure you..... my scientific background allows me to prove that I am right. All of my scientific hypothesis was proved by my scientific testing, where I didn't comprimise the scientific method.
I am a scientist and you have to listen to me now because everything in the world is governed by scientific laws."
Annoying isn't it? Actually any scientist that does that is usually considered an arrogrant prat by his own peers. Don't know why BW thinks it is any better to toot the word artistic every 30 seconds.
But yeah that kind of attitude is not just a pain in the arse in art only.
"Scientically speaking I can ascertain that..... with my scientific qualifications I can assure you..... my scientific background allows me to prove that I am right. All of my scientific hypothesis was proved by my scientific testing, where I didn't comprimise the scientific method.
I am a scientist and you have to listen to me now because everything in the world is governed by scientific laws."
Annoying isn't it? Actually any scientist that does that is usually considered an arrogrant prat by his own peers. Don't know why BW thinks it is any better to toot the word artistic every 30 seconds.
#1260
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 01:15
Sanrei
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Anyone with any knowledge in any area can be a pretentious douche about it if they so choose.
Anyone following the true scientific method will change their opinion of something, even if they've been arguing differently over the years, if the evidence shows that what they said isn't true. You see that when Mordin changes his mind about the genophage being necessary. Eve steps into the picture and he realizes with the right leadership, the Krogan don't have to be a blight on the universe. Arrogance sets in when in spite of evidence to the contrary you refuse to back down on your position. (which is why, if the indoc theory turns out to be even partially true, I owe Bioware a huge apology.. and considering how staunch they are in refusing to change the ending as well as consistently skirting around giving a real answer on the the whole IT thing... well.. I honestly don't know. But to dwell on it is maddening.)
When someone really is relying on truth and facts, knowledge and experience, they very well may have a better opinion on something than you. But a decent person won't treat you as lesser because of it.
Anyone following the true scientific method will change their opinion of something, even if they've been arguing differently over the years, if the evidence shows that what they said isn't true. You see that when Mordin changes his mind about the genophage being necessary. Eve steps into the picture and he realizes with the right leadership, the Krogan don't have to be a blight on the universe. Arrogance sets in when in spite of evidence to the contrary you refuse to back down on your position. (which is why, if the indoc theory turns out to be even partially true, I owe Bioware a huge apology.. and considering how staunch they are in refusing to change the ending as well as consistently skirting around giving a real answer on the the whole IT thing... well.. I honestly don't know. But to dwell on it is maddening.)
When someone really is relying on truth and facts, knowledge and experience, they very well may have a better opinion on something than you. But a decent person won't treat you as lesser because of it.
Modifié par PedEgg, 08 avril 2012 - 01:21 .
#1262
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 01:00
SpeedDevil89
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You know, before seeing the announcement about the Extended Cut DLC, I had quite a few theories why the ending is like that:
For the third bit, it'd probably rage about it for a while, but I'd probably forgive them at some point.
For the fourth one, I can't really say much, just stop quoting 'artistic integrity' all the time, when the ones to violate it are the ones who 'defend' it against people who actually care.
As for the last bit, I'm the kind of person who respects deeply people brave enough to admit their own mistakes and faults, and I'd give them all the time they need to make it right, as they envisioned it.
However, the announcement about the extended cut leaves me with little to hope for. I'll wait until I see their work on it, but I am not getting my hopes up. I saw what good that did me up to this point.
- discuss alternative endings - take ideas from discussions, ultimately giving the chance to the community to contribute further into the game they loved
- Indoctrination theory - get the theory going and then release actual ending, which happens if you realise you're being indoctrinated (ok, I honestly didn't think of that one, but it would actually be quite cool if the people at BW had actually come up with it in the first place)
- publicity stunt - see our reactions before releasing the actual thing
- some really smart person/people (by smart I mean only appearence-wise) from the top just said: "OK that's it folks, you're out of time, we need to make some money now, just release the thing as it is"
- the ending is what it is, the writers actually came up with something that is below their usual writing quality due to time constraints or whatever - they admitted to it being sub par and went on to change it.
For the third bit, it'd probably rage about it for a while, but I'd probably forgive them at some point.
For the fourth one, I can't really say much, just stop quoting 'artistic integrity' all the time, when the ones to violate it are the ones who 'defend' it against people who actually care.
As for the last bit, I'm the kind of person who respects deeply people brave enough to admit their own mistakes and faults, and I'd give them all the time they need to make it right, as they envisioned it.
However, the announcement about the extended cut leaves me with little to hope for. I'll wait until I see their work on it, but I am not getting my hopes up. I saw what good that did me up to this point.
Modifié par SpeedDevil89, 08 avril 2012 - 01:02 .
#1263
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 03:49
Madecologist
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An unofficial interview with Weekes, the responses are paraphrased but it is still a nice read.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1
#1265
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 10:44
Sanrei
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#1267
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 05:19
Sanrei
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It's been so quiet here of late.. bump?
#1268
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 05:32
sporeian
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Okay, some issues I have
- How does Anderson get in ahead of you to the citadel?
- Why isn't there a Reaper under construction in the Citadel if thats what they're doing?
- Why do I magically get transported to the control room?
- Why is Shepard bleeding after he shot anderson?
- Why does Shepard magically land on the elevator to the final area
- Why is the catalyast actually an AI, and not the citadel?
- Why does the catalyst appear as child?
- Why can't I talk to the Catalyst?
- How is the cycle justfied by the catalyst's explination?
- Why do I only get an A,B, or C choice in the matter?
- Why is there magically a pair of handle bars to take control of the Reapers?
- Where do the reapers go if I control Them?
- What Happens to Shepard in control?
- How does the crucible change everyone's DNA?
- What does this do for pure synthetics?
- What does this do to everyone species-wide?
- Why is there a tube in the middle of nowhere?
- Why does shooting the tube destroy all synthetics?
- Why can't we just destroy the Reapers?
- Why are the explosion colors different?
- Why do the Mass Relays Blow up?
- Where was the Normandy going?
- Where does the Normandy end up?
- Why is my squad magically back on the Normandy?
- How does no one starve to death?
- Why does a higher EMS end up with Shepard living in the end?
- Why does EDI live at the end of the destroy ending?
- Why does Shepard appear under concreate rubble?
- What was the purpose of these endings?
- Why did you think it was a good idea?
- What happens to the citadel?
- What happens to Conrad
#1270
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 11:32
SpeedDevil89
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@sporeian
(because quoting the whole thing just takes unnecessary space)
I could debate that some of your questions have a logical and in-game answer, for example the one about Anderson ending up in a different room and getting to the console ahead of Shepard; at some point in the dialogue Anderson says that "a wall just shifted" or something like that, which I understand as the blocks around the control room moving to connect a different room to the control, though don't as me for what purpose, I haven't the foggiest idea.
Some other questions also have a 'logical' explanation, however twisted and illogical they seem (why the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations). I'm not sure I interpret correctly "How is the cycle justfied by the catalyst's explination?" and I assume that you mean the cycle of 'organics advance-Reapers come-Reapers harvest organics-Reapers leave-organics advance), and not the cycle mentioned by the Prothean VI on Cronos station (or was it on Thessia?), which would suggest a larger scale event.
However, most of the questions remain unanswered, and are either open to interpretation based on some facts, bits of dialogue forgotten, or they are impossible to even speculate because of no evidence.
Personally, I'd add another question - and all the questions that follow it - (ripped off off MrBtongue's Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage: Additional Clarity and Closure):
Shooting the tube appears to be causing it to explode. Why am I walking towards it?
(because quoting the whole thing just takes unnecessary space)
I could debate that some of your questions have a logical and in-game answer, for example the one about Anderson ending up in a different room and getting to the console ahead of Shepard; at some point in the dialogue Anderson says that "a wall just shifted" or something like that, which I understand as the blocks around the control room moving to connect a different room to the control, though don't as me for what purpose, I haven't the foggiest idea.
Some other questions also have a 'logical' explanation, however twisted and illogical they seem (why the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations). I'm not sure I interpret correctly "How is the cycle justfied by the catalyst's explination?" and I assume that you mean the cycle of 'organics advance-Reapers come-Reapers harvest organics-Reapers leave-organics advance), and not the cycle mentioned by the Prothean VI on Cronos station (or was it on Thessia?), which would suggest a larger scale event.
However, most of the questions remain unanswered, and are either open to interpretation based on some facts, bits of dialogue forgotten, or they are impossible to even speculate because of no evidence.
Personally, I'd add another question - and all the questions that follow it - (ripped off off MrBtongue's Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage: Additional Clarity and Closure):
Shooting the tube appears to be causing it to explode. Why am I walking towards it?
Modifié par SpeedDevil89, 09 avril 2012 - 11:37 .
#1271
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 02:36
Half_Moon
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SpeedDevil89 wrote...
@sporeian
(because quoting the whole thing just takes unnecessary space)
I could debate that some of your questions have a logical and in-game answer, for example the one about Anderson ending up in a different room and getting to the console ahead of Shepard; at some point in the dialogue Anderson says that "a wall just shifted" or something like that, which I understand as the blocks around the control room moving to connect a different room to the control, though don't as me for what purpose, I haven't the foggiest idea.
Some other questions also have a 'logical' explanation, however twisted and illogical they seem (why the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations). I'm not sure I interpret correctly "How is the cycle justfied by the catalyst's explination?" and I assume that you mean the cycle of 'organics advance-Reapers come-Reapers harvest organics-Reapers leave-organics advance), and not the cycle mentioned by the Prothean VI on Cronos station (or was it on Thessia?), which would suggest a larger scale event.
However, most of the questions remain unanswered, and are either open to interpretation based on some facts, bits of dialogue forgotten, or they are impossible to even speculate because of no evidence.
Personally, I'd add another question - and all the questions that follow it - (ripped off off MrBtongue's Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage: Additional Clarity and Closure):
Shooting the tube appears to be causing it to explode. Why am I walking towards it?
You're walking towards the tube because you're indoctrinated and you hope getting yourself killed will make you wake up like in a dream
#1272
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 10:16
GuardianAngel470
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Nice, you reorganized the articles. I like it. I've basically just stopped looking for articles on my own because of this thread, it's such a great resource.
#1273
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 10:49
McGrzegorz
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I wonder how long it's gonna take for anyone to address all those statements...
And because I think all this is pointless, I mean we will never get any apologies I just wanted to quote Female Shepard (I believe):
"Respect is a funny thing. People always assume they deserve it.
The truth is - Respect is earned."
EDIT: Spelling
And because I think all this is pointless, I mean we will never get any apologies I just wanted to quote Female Shepard (I believe):
"Respect is a funny thing. People always assume they deserve it.
The truth is - Respect is earned."
EDIT: Spelling
Modifié par McGrzegorz, 09 avril 2012 - 10:50 .
#1274
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 11:20
CDRSkyShepard
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Hehe, had to go digging for my own thread. *Sad face*
Anyway, my apologies for being away so long. I was out of town this past weekend and thus neglecting my duties. XD
BUT. Good news, everyone! The edits are now ready to be put in place in the OP. Lots of post-PAX stuff, including that "unofficial" interview with Weekes that Madecologist linked us to. I'm toying with the idea of putting stuff regarding the ending DLC in there - as in what we *don't* want out of it - for good measure.
I'll also be color-coding the articles again tonight. I've found a work around the issue where they go back to being plain old yellow after I edit the post, so that will be great. Let me know if the colors make them hard to read, and I'll figure out something else, like colored stars or something.
I hope everyone is having a better Monday than me. XD Keep holding the line!!!
Anyway, my apologies for being away so long. I was out of town this past weekend and thus neglecting my duties. XD
BUT. Good news, everyone! The edits are now ready to be put in place in the OP. Lots of post-PAX stuff, including that "unofficial" interview with Weekes that Madecologist linked us to. I'm toying with the idea of putting stuff regarding the ending DLC in there - as in what we *don't* want out of it - for good measure.
I'll also be color-coding the articles again tonight. I've found a work around the issue where they go back to being plain old yellow after I edit the post, so that will be great. Let me know if the colors make them hard to read, and I'll figure out something else, like colored stars or something.
I hope everyone is having a better Monday than me. XD Keep holding the line!!!
#1275
Guest_Nachtdämmerung_*
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 11:28
Guest_Nachtdämmerung_*
Guest_Nachtdämmerung_*
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Don't have a sad face...we're holding this line and you do a great job here 
