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The Data Cache: Your One-Stop Retake Resource (UPDATED 6/16!)


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#1401
CDRSkyShepard

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PedEgg wrote...

I've heard the original choices have something left to be desired as well, but I think that if they had run with it, and let the team hack-it-out they could have whipped up something better, different choices with different consequences, varying from really bad to really good.


I really liked Drew's endings better. They weren't perfect, but damn they were 200x better. There were only two choices, but the variables were more on par with ME2's SM, not the craptastic pigeonholed stuff we got in ME3. They also tied up the majority of the plot threads, except if you chose one of the endings, the dark energy problem was still there. That was the weakest point, I think. I also didn't like the concept of the Reapers being "good." I mean, perspective is a huge thing, but I never got how the Reapers could be anything but evil. If I was trying to help, even in a misguided attempt, I wouldn't systematically hunt down and suss out last remnants to "save" them by Indoctrinating their own people. I'd want to make it as painless as possible. I know ants wouldn't appreciate me "saving them" from my mean little sister wanting to squish her by collapsing their anthill and causing all sorts of panic.

What I liked best about Drew's endings, though, was that the Crucible was a trap. It was never intended to work, and was a Reaper plant to try and create false hope. They hoped that the more resistent civilizations would rally their last economic and combat resources to build and deliver it, only to discover it didn't work. Then all the ships would be in one place for them to just rip apart, and there'd be no economy left to speak of. That turned the Crucible into a *yawn* superweapon into a stroke of genius BioWare plot twist.

@unoriginalname - Ha. I getcha now. Tired brain was tired when I made that post. XD

#1402
Reptilian Rob

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CDRSkyShepard wrote...

PedEgg wrote...

I've heard the original choices have something left to be desired as well, but I think that if they had run with it, and let the team hack-it-out they could have whipped up something better, different choices with different consequences, varying from really bad to really good.


I really liked Drew's endings better. They weren't perfect, but damn they were 200x better. There were only two choices, but the variables were more on par with ME2's SM, not the craptastic pigeonholed stuff we got in ME3. They also tied up the majority of the plot threads, except if you chose one of the endings, the dark energy problem was still there. That was the weakest point, I think. I also didn't like the concept of the Reapers being "good." I mean, perspective is a huge thing, but I never got how the Reapers could be anything but evil. If I was trying to help, even in a misguided attempt, I wouldn't systematically hunt down and suss out last remnants to "save" them by Indoctrinating their own people. I'd want to make it as painless as possible. I know ants wouldn't appreciate me "saving them" from my mean little sister wanting to squish her by collapsing their anthill and causing all sorts of panic.

What I liked best about Drew's endings, though, was that the Crucible was a trap. It was never intended to work, and was a Reaper plant to try and create false hope. They hoped that the more resistent civilizations would rally their last economic and combat resources to build and deliver it, only to discover it didn't work. Then all the ships would be in one place for them to just rip apart, and there'd be no economy left to speak of. That turned the Crucible into a *yawn* superweapon into a stroke of genius BioWare plot twist.

@unoriginalname - Ha. I getcha now. Tired brain was tired when I made that post. XD

There were actually three choices based on EMS.

1) Destroy humanity and build a Human Reaper to stop dark energy. 

2) Save humanity and destroy the Reapers, finding another way to stop the spread of dark energy. 

3) Highest possible EMS gave you the oppertunity to ally with the Reapers to stop Dark Energy, although it is alluded to the peace not lasting. 

#1403
CDRSkyShepard

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Still has issues.

1) Why would a human reaper stop dark energy? Space magic again? Not to mention the old "Shepard has no right to make that decision for everyone" argument.

2) Leaves a huge plot thread hanging

3) Only a sillyhead would ally with the Reapers

Modifié par CDRSkyShepard, 21 avril 2012 - 07:59 .


#1404
Reptilian Rob

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CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Still has issues.

1) Why would a human reaper stop dark energy? Space magic again? Not to mention the old "Shepard has no right to make that decision for everyone" argument.

2) Leaves a huge plot thread hanging

3) Only a sillyhead would ally with the Reapers

I never said it was perfect, just that it was better than what we got. :D

#1405
Sanrei

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I think I wanna stick with their purposes being hinted at but never truly revealed to keep up the mystery. They never wanted to explain it to us to begin with and if I was Shepard I'd get tired of asking.

Kid: Grandad, why did the Reapers want to destroy all intelligent life?

Gradnfather: F**k if I know, the important thing is Shepard ripped them apart like a fat kid at a crab boil.

Kid: Yippee! Can you tell me the part where Kelly gives Shepard a lap dance again?

fade to black...

Modifié par PedEgg, 21 avril 2012 - 09:07 .


#1406
SpeedDevil89

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Quick bump before my flight

Looking at the OP, I saw that you've got most of MrBtongue's videos (Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage), except his video on the extended cut DLC.

Also, I seem to have missed something (or didn't really go through every link in the OP), and I'm curious where you got all the info on Drew's endings.

#1407
Madecologist

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They should have kept the Reapers as 'monstrosities'. They leave enough tech behind to guide the technological path of future civilisations, the harvest advanced life and perhaps even their tech which is now made to match theirs, this process including the use of biomatter is part of their reproduction, and they do this in cycles giving time for new 'crop' to rise fresh for the reaping.

They farm patatoes in Idaho, in Reaperville they farm civilisations. Why? *shrugs* do we tell our potatoes why we farm them? Remind me to whisper to my french firies this afternoon why I eat them :).

The ending could have been based on different ways of destroying the Reapers, or heck you can maybe only have one way but the choices would be about how you get to it. Then the ending and epilogue would show you the consequences of these choices and your past choices.

Keeping it simple is not always a bad thing. Deep for Deep sake is not Deep, it is actually pretty pretentious. The story gained its depth from the personal investments you had with your squadmates and the connections you had with the struggle of the galactic races. Like the Geth versus the Quarians and the fate of the Krogans with the Genophage.

Modifié par Madecologist, 21 avril 2012 - 05:54 .


#1408
Spyre2001

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Even the problems given with Drew's Endings I think they were better than what we got. And since release I've had plenty of time to think up better endings. Heck even before the game came out I had some ideas on how they could potentially end it.

The "Twist" ending which seems to be popular these days I thought was a possibility. Though one of the possible twist I thought which actually fits really well is right before Shepard defeats the reapers, Whatever way that might be since I was thinking of this before release, that Harbinger alludes to the fact that the Reapers are not confined to this Galaxy. They have been around for millions of years and it seems only reasonable that they would expand to harvest other galaxies as they spread out. After all I recall in one scene them describing themselves as infinite. In the current ending this makes even more sense as why would the problem of synthetics rebelling against organics be confined to only our galaxy? Why wouldn't they expand this setup to other galaxies to "Protect organic life"? They are machines so few thousand years to travel between galaxies would be nothing.

Heck I can even think of a better motivation for the star child than his non-nonsensical YO DAWG argument. Instead a more militaristic version of the Prime Directive. In that advance civilizations ultimately conquer and eliminate other civilizations. Pointing to Prothian as typical example. In order to preserve the diversity of life and allow new civilizations a chance to rise and exist for a limited time he setup the Reaper cycle. You can even try to counter by saying how you got the civilizations to work together, assuming you did, and the star child would then counter by pointing out the races that are treated like 2nd class citizens when it comes to the council and galactic politics. As well as pointing out they are only working together because of the Reaper threat and as soon as the threat is gone they will return to their in fighting in short order. So basically the argument is that organic species will always attempt to dominate each other and only make peace if forced too. Once the gap becomes to great the less advance species will never have a chance to advance or be anything more the servants. I know it's not perfect and some could argue it has similar logic issues as the original ending but the goal is completely different in that the current one is in order to protect you from yourselves we will kill you. While this one is more organic life spreads out of control like a cancer and thus needs to be culled from time to time. In fact having the star child compare organics to a plague would further reinforce how they view us, just as we give little thought to wiping out millions of bacteria.

Out of all the possibilities it's just sad we got the crappy ending we did, and complete BS all the claims that Bioware had an impossible task as nothing would of satisfied the fans for an ending. Yet I haven't heard anything negative on how they rapped up the Genophage or Geth story lines.

#1409
Mev186

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You can have a "twist" ending. But it needs to be clever, What was got was not clever. It was a jumbled mishmash of cut scenes made to resemble something deep. I had so many questions when it was over...I still do. Adding on to it will not fix anything, because the ending itself is horribly messed up.

#1410
Spyre2001

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Mev186 wrote...
 I had so many questions when it was over...I still do. Adding on to it will not fix anything, because the ending itself is horribly messed up.

Yea. The biggest inconsistency is if the star child is there why does ME1 even happen? Shoudlnt' he be able to activate the Citideal? If he created the Reapers and their cycle was disrupted he shouldn't need one of his Reapers to fix the place he lives and created which is the key to the whole system.

But that's just one of many. And that one is an issue across the series but there are logical error within the ending itself that if you were to take it out of ME and analysis it as it's own story line it would still fall apart.

#1411
CDRSkyShepard

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SpeedDevil89 wrote...

Quick bump before my flight

Looking at the OP, I saw that you've got most of MrBtongue's videos (Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage), except his video on the extended cut DLC.

Also, I seem to have missed something (or didn't really go through every link in the OP), and I'm curious where you got all the info on Drew's endings.


I thought I had that video in the section for Extended Cut, but I just remembered I have Angry Joe's in there, I didn't realize there was a Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage one for it yet. Thanks for the heads-up!

Drew's endings were in the leaked script from May, before the November leak happened. I'm still trying to track down a copy of it to show to you guys.

I will get to other comments later, I'm currently running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get stuff ready for a big dinner tomorrow.

I wanted to leave this here with you guys, though:

Image IPB

#1412
Reptilian Rob

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CDRSkyShepard wrote...

SpeedDevil89 wrote...

Quick bump before my flight

Looking at the OP, I saw that you've got most of MrBtongue's videos (Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage), except his video on the extended cut DLC.

Also, I seem to have missed something (or didn't really go through every link in the OP), and I'm curious where you got all the info on Drew's endings.


I thought I had that video in the section for Extended Cut, but I just remembered I have Angry Joe's in there, I didn't realize there was a Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage one for it yet. Thanks for the heads-up!

Drew's endings were in the leaked script from May, before the November leak happened. I'm still trying to track down a copy of it to show to you guys.

I will get to other comments later, I'm currently running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get stuff ready for a big dinner tomorrow.

I wanted to leave this here with you guys, though:

Image IPB

I showed you this! :lol:

#1413
CDRSkyShepard

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I meant to credit you for showing it to me Rob, but I forgots.

I know you forgive me anyway. XD

#1414
Spyre2001

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CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Image IPB


Wow nice statistical proof of BW decline in dedication to the game. Fetch quest are easy and lazy quest to design. I did feel like ME3 was shorter then the previous games and even my play through time was shorter. I thought it was simply because I missed something, or perhaps the result of the new scan system as I spent a lot of time scanning in ME2 and planet exploring in ME1.

But no it was because the actual number of engaging quest was seriously cut down in favor of the fetch quest, most of which I simply completed because I scanned every system and already had the item when I first talk to the person.

#1415
Sanrei

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bump

#1416
LittleTito

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Bump again!

#1417
Madecologist

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Now that we brough up Drew's idea of Dark Energy (which I think has its own flaws too), I can saw the real failling of the ending is the execution. I am pretty sure the same two that give us this c*** would give us just something equally as bad if they stuck to that idea.

Even if you use someone else's premise, you can still do a poor job with it. Worst part is I can see them still doing the Tech Singularity idea they did use but being a million times better if done right. Heck I can see many different ways they could have handled the Star Child as well (if they absolutely wanted to keep it) to make it better. Not good but better at least.

I do believe removing the Star Child and replacing it would be much much better, but there was so much more they could have done during the Star Child and still make the ending better than what we got.

To take from a baseball metaphor, they literally punted this ending out at us.

Modifié par Madecologist, 22 avril 2012 - 06:53 .


#1418
Sanrei

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Turn it on/off campaign to show Bioware how many support them as well as the potential for customer loss..

#1419
CDRSkyShepard

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PedEgg wrote...

Turn it on/off campaign to show Bioware how many support them as well as the potential for customer loss..


PedEgg, there ya go stealin' mah thunder. LOL. Jk, jk.

I definitely, definitely would love it if everyone involved with this movement participated. I think it would be a wake-up call to BioWare/EA if their numbers surged, then all of a sudden dropped the next day. 

I also put a section up for it in the War Assets section. Check it out, y'all! (Oh ya, I did updates today! *Feels accomplished*)

#1420
Spyre2001

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PedEgg wrote...

Turn it on/off campaign to show Bioware how many support them as well as the potential for customer loss..

What if your 360 doesn't have an internet connection? My router recently died and new one has yet to arrive.

Anyhow I'm not sure if this has been linked but it's from TUN guy. It's not on ME3 like his other videos but more of a how we got what we did because of business structure with EA.


Funny thing is EA made all these changes across the series in order to attract more customers. From the numbers on VGChartz the first two games sold about the same number of copies. And now ME3 is about half a million short of those numbers. I'll give it that ME3 has only been out for months and not years so it could slowly pick up the difference in time.

The point is that EA kept having BW make all these changes to try and draw in a larger audience yet it's not working. And all they are doing in the meantime is pissing off their current customers who are more then happy to go to the competition where they can get what they want. Over the years I keep pointing this kind of thing out to people and keep hearing the same reply, "Well they are doing it to make more money." But the point is THEY AREN'T MAKING MORE MONEY! They are making less because the crowd they are trying to appeal to was never interested to begin with and the audience that liked it are now pissed.

For example I have some friends who HATE Fantasy, doesn't matter how great of a game Dragon Age Origins was and how much I talk it up, all they see is Fantasy and say "No Thanks." Even though they like RPG games they prefer the Sci-Fi setting like KOTOR and ME. This is how I feel EA is with their IPs. They are like "Look we added a lightsaber in DA2, that's kinda Sci-Fi so you should try it." Instead of trying to make the game as good as it could be within it's own genre they try tacking on other genres in hopes of drawing the eye of a larger audience. Where if we look at another game, which breaks pretty much every established rule for what type of games sell well, we can see that Skyrim has actually sold more copies then all 3 ME games combined. http://www.vgchartz.com is where I get the figures and ME series has about 10.4M total sales while Skyrim has 11.6M.

The longer this goes on the more I think EA isn't even listening. And I'm not just talking about this whole ME3 ending debacle but EA's who history with the death of so many franchises I cared about. However going back to TUN's video that I linked I'd have to say that things aren't going to get better only worst it's in part because they can't change. EA is slowly turning BW into just another branch of itself where programmers toil away making a product for release and little passion for their product. Oh I'm sure they will put on good PR faces to act on how wonderful their new game is but that's all it will be, an act.

I said it before in other post EA holds no other franchises that interest me anymore because they have driven them into the ground. If they hadn't bought up BW they still wouldn't and BW was the only reason I even bought an EA title in the last 5 years.

#1421
Spyre2001

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Not sure if it's been posted yet.
www.youtube.com/watch

#1422
Madecologist

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Spyre2001 wrote...

Not sure if it's been posted yet.
www.youtube.com/watch

This one is a little better:

www.youtube.com/watch

Same clip but with a better and probably more appropriate head stuck on George.

Modifié par Madecologist, 23 avril 2012 - 01:57 .


#1423
MrAtomica

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CDRSkyShepard wrote...

3) Only a sillyhead would ally with the Reapers


Before the Catalyst mosied onto the scene, I'd have been inclined to agree with you.

HOWEVER:

Given what we find out about the "motivation" of the Reapers - that they are little more than pawns of a misguided synthetic being - this statement is no longer patently true. Think about it. The Reapers have not, since the moment the Catalyst took control of them (be that at the moment of creation, or at a later time), been acting of their own accord.

So can it really be said that they are evil? Generally, we perceive an individual to be "genuinely evil" when it becomes clear that they have committed truly reprehensible acts through free will. It is a label derived from a choice.

By this token, the Reapers CANNOT be evil. If we take what the Catalyst says at face value, they are tools. I can no more agree that the Reapers are evil than I can agree that any weapon used to kill someone is. We can certainly comndemn their actions to be evil, since they quite clearly are (slaughtering of civilizations, enslavement, etc.). But to extend that same classification to the Reapers themselves just doesn't fit in the context of the current endings.

Personally, I find the Catalyst to be the sole villain of the Mass Effect universe. His manipulations guide the Reapers, who in turn guided the figureheads of the three games; Saren, The Collectors, and TIM are all, by extension, puppets of the Catalyst. He/she/it is what we have actually been fighting against all this time. Which is precisely why the current situation is such an issue for me.

The Reapers should not have been reduced to this. Not only does it create logical problems with the previous two stories (necessity for Saren and Sovereign, reason for building a Human Reaper and Arrival), but it removes any sense of justice or victory from what we "accomplish" at the end of ME3. There is no victory here. We are presented with the true mastermind of all the evil that the galaxy has suffered for countless millenia within the final moments of the narrative. To make matters even worse, we are denied any opportunity to face it. Instead, we must suffer through obeying this evil, purely for the purpose of eliminating the pawns it has dominated to further its supposedly noble goal. Where is the good in that?

Let's go one better.

In none of the three choices we are given is the conflict, that the Catalyst purports is paramount, resolved. The inevitable outcome of synthetics and organics existing together, utter annihilation, remains a looming threat. All three endings leave the very likely possibility of someone, somewhere, sometime building new synthetics. Beyond this, none of the three account for the root of the issue. The Catalyst claims that synthetics "Will always rebel against their creators". Perhaps. But is his "solution" truly wise? Has it accomplished anything of value in the many times it has run its course? Does not the term "cycle" imply that it will always continue? If so, why pursue it at all? Why not simply end organic life completely?

The Rannoch arc, as well as the character of EDI, shed some light on a more sensible fix. Guide the evolutionary process of synthetic life. As they mature, allow them to integrate themselves into galactic society and culture. Do not shun them or lash out at them. The Quarians tried this approach, and look where it got them. By treating synthetics in a similar manner to a fledgling organic race, there is a far lesser likeliehood of them resorting to aggression. Granted, their thought process is not the same as ours. But both EDI and the Geth exhibit strikingly organic emotions, thoughts, and ideas as they develop.

I got a bit side-tracked as I wrote this. It wound up being more a collection of my thoughts on the ending in general rather than a simple rebuttal. Sorry about that. I just can't help but feel cheated somehow by how the end of this otherwise wonderful game played out. There are so many questions that are raised by the existence of the Catalyst alone that it makes my head spin. My main point still stands --

The Reapers are no longer capable of being viewed as they were for a good 15/16 (see wut I did thar?) of the trilogy. The Catalyst is the lone villain, and he is not dealt with appropriately. As to the Reapers, I don't feel that an alliance is necessarily an impossibility. Some of them could be partial to co-existence, some could wish us harm. Without further information, I choose to lean toward the former. After all, they are each comprised of billions of collective minds, all of whom were once living. Out of all that number, I suspect that quite a few would be weary of killing.

Edit: I should have noted that my thoughts on "allying" with the Reapers would require the Catalyst to be destroyed in some fashion (or convniced to release control over them). It's obvious at this point that the EC is not going to go this route, so my whole blurb is more or less pointless. Ah well, I do enjoy the ability to ramble. :whistle:

Modifié par MrAtomica, 23 avril 2012 - 02:22 .


#1424
Spyre2001

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MrAtomica wrote...

Given what we find out about the "motivation" of the Reapers - that they are little more than pawns of a misguided synthetic being - this statement is no longer patently true. Think about it. The Reapers have not, since the moment the Catalyst took control of them (be that at the moment of creation, or at a later time), been acting of their own accord.

You know that reminds me of what the Catalyst said. "The created will always rebel against the creators." It would of been funny to have a 4th option of flip a switch and the reapers turn on the Catalyst in their own little rebelion.

#1425
Madecologist

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Spyre2001 wrote...

MrAtomica wrote...

Given what we find out about the "motivation" of the Reapers - that they are little more than pawns of a misguided synthetic being - this statement is no longer patently true. Think about it. The Reapers have not, since the moment the Catalyst took control of them (be that at the moment of creation, or at a later time), been acting of their own accord.

You know that reminds me of what the Catalyst said. "The created will always rebel against the creators." It would of been funny to have a 4th option of flip a switch and the reapers turn on the Catalyst in their own little rebelion.

I get the idea that maybe the Reapers have already rebelled. The Catalyst has no more power, he is sort of a prisoner by his own creations. They still do their initial job but with their own methods now. They leave the Catalyst alive either as some sort of father reverence or as punishment for controlling them once.

Control is nothing more than the Catalyst trying to resume direct Control, it failed with TIM but he hopes he can get Shepard to do it. Sure Shepard will have more free will, but it is better than nothing.

Synthesis would be his new solution based on his own ideology, while destroy is probably what you should do. Too bad you have to kill all Synthetics in the process. Maybe he lied, maybe he does it on purpose to convince you otherwise since you kill both his children and him.

Modifié par Madecologist, 23 avril 2012 - 02:57 .