1634 réponses à ce sujet

[unoriginalname1133]

 This is something I posted elsewhere, but it is most definately a grievance, so I bring it up here. Be warned, it is yet another complaint about the Catalyst. 

My issue is tied in with the "breath" scene that follows a high EMS Destroy ending. In its dialogue, the Catalyst tells us (or at least STRONGLY implies) that choosing Destroy will kill the partially synthetic Shepard. But according to the cutscene, Shepard is clearly alive (not sure how, but that's another issue altogether). My concern here is that the Catalyst is definitively contradicted. This means that the Catalyst is either ignorant or dishonest. Either way, this casts doubt on everything else that it says. Did the Geth get killed by Destroy, or were they spared as well? We can't really know. Were mass relays really destroyed? Sure looked like it, but then again, it also looked like Shepard was killed when the Citadel blew up. So now we are left in a bad way, seeing as we can't even trust the vague explanations the Catalyst gives us.

 

Modifié par unoriginalname1133, 25 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[SpeedDevil89]

Long overdue bump

[Madecologist]

Shepard's corny lines from the start as so apt for us all.

We fight or we die, except in our case it is: We fight or it dies.

The thing is it will die. I heard some people say Bioware doesn't care because by 'tapping' into the new market they will get more money than the ever did before so we don't matter anymore. The big mistake is people assume Bioware can compete in the 'new markets'.

Certainly they can draw upon them, but to think they are a shoe in to compete inside of it... is a little laughable at best. I will explain why. I usually am in these forms as a fan on Bioware, but now I shall finally speak as a fan of GoW and Halo. I will speak as someone that entirely comes from that school of gaming.

I will criticise ME as a none Bioware fan, put on your coat this won't be pretty.

Some quick facts about this new market (for those who didn't get it I am refering to the TPS/FPS market):
- It is highly competitive and there is plenty of established brand names and brand labels.
- The people of this market do not reconise the name Bioware. They heard of it Bioware maybe but the name is not indication of a 'kick-ass company'.
- We are not that loyal as fans, we swing from one big hit to another. We can be tricked into getting a sequal or two, but we are not the type to give anyone second chances or even first chances. Popularity is earned per release. Just ask ODST.
- Despite we too hate short games, on average most of us hate games that are too long... and yes even ME3 is a little too long for our taste. It is not that we don't want more for our money, but it drags out.
- ME action element is a little tepid. Seriously, it is cool that it has a level up system and diverse powers and it would be cool if the other companies copies that sort of diversity, but it takes too long to acquire these power ups and the game play is the same... for 10s and 10s of hour. No vehicle action section, no diversity in the versus waves of enemies as we go down a linear map route mechanic.
- No cool epic fights. No we are not talking about videogamey boss battles here. We are speaking about manning an orbital gun and shooting down a capital ship. Stuff like that. We get one, the Rannoch Reaper only, even that... this is rather tame to the stuff Bungie has already given us.
- Horde mode only MP.... seriously... that is your only MP offering. I get the only co-op modes, but where is other types of MP co-ops? The Horde mode is good! but is that the only mode... seriously?!
- I heard rumours we need to play MP to unlock some aspects of the ending... seriously?! Even Halo and Gears of War doesn't do that. This is what you call innovation?! SP is SP... leave the SP alone.
- Oh yeah... we think the ending sucks too... and we had to endure Halo 2's ending, atleast that was a cliffhanger when we already knew there would be a 3. So that says a lot. It doesn't have to be long, but it needs to offer a proper resolution and sense of closure to the story we played.

((Yes I spoke with people that are larger fans of these types of the games that still played ME3, on average most hated or just didn't like the ending, even amongst them ending lovers were rare... heck I think they were rarer! It is just they are not emotional about their displeasure with it)).

*takes his Halo/Gears of War fanboy hat off and puts his Bioware/ME fan hat back on*

Yes, that is what these people think. The liked the game and found it fun, but nothing that Bioware did makes them think it is a better series than Halo or Gears of War, heck even CoD fans are not sold.... Many are happy with the writing in those games and even if you think Bioware writes better, it falls on a deaf ear. The game play is great but not on par with the stuff their games have already offered them.

It is near delusional to believe Bioware can remain afloat in the 'mainstream' market. It is a good company, but it is not prepared for what is there. I don't think they even understand what is there. Heck even their overlords is not the most well known publisher in that domain. EA holds shares in other markets... not these ones. So even EA probably doesn't know.

Bioware apologistist, EA analysts, and Bioware employee can read this post (assuming they did) and scoff at what I said. Say I don't know what I am talking about. Go ahead. Time will tell, but I am pretty sure at that point I will only say one thing.

"Told you so."

((Short Version: Bioware can expand and try to pull in new customers from other markets. However it shouldn't forget what it is known for and what it's actual brand power represents. Nor should it dismiss its core audience. Nor should it think it can change its core audience easily without it being a huge risk. Lastly, even the 'average' gamers hated the ending, they just don't get upset about it, but they hated it too.))

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 03:32 .

[Spyre2001]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

You know, I realized something today. Even if we lose in the end and BioWare is too stubborn to see past their "artistic vision" shenanigans, we truly won't lose. I look at the sheer number of anti-ending YouTube video and blog posts, and I know that BioWare will never be able to outrun this. For better or for worse, but they won't be able to hide from it forever. It will catch up to them in one way or another, because the ending of this game has become the butt of an extensive list of jokes all over the internet. I haven't seen the same kind of passion and support in favor of the ending as I have against it. I think, eventually, we'll win a war of attrition. It might not save the Mass Effect trilogy as we know it now, but in the end, Mass Effect 3 will be infamous for it's crappy ending. That may not sound like much of a consolation prize but at least those who say, "I liked the ending, it was good" will be laughed at for all eternity for being ridiculous.

As much as I don't want my favorite sci-fi IP to die like this, if it's going to die, I'd rather it dies here than being p*mped out by EA as some online MMO horsehooey or Halo clone. In the end, I'm fighting to ensure BioWare and EA pay for what they've done...so that they can reap the seeds of discontent they sowed.

I don't really see that as us "Winning". I think it's more like we are the canaries in the coal mine there to warn something is wrong. But instead of taking note they continue on their way pretending all the dead birds are sleeping. Until it all blows up and takes everyone with it.

We loss a great Developer, a great franchise, and are left with little more than the right to say, "I told you so." For some in the younger generation that maybe enough. But I've seen this kind of corperate denial happen so often in the past I'm getting tired of saying "I told you so." and it feels empty in the end.

As for them pimping the franchise out I think the sad part is if they had given us everything we wanted they would of been able to pimp it out in the end. Simply pull a KOTOR where it happens so far from the other events you don't have to worry about them. The new ME could easily have ended up taking place 3,000 or more years later. With all the destruction caused by the Reapers civilizations would be set way back. With most fleets and governments in shambles crime would of likely taken a huge increase. Remenants of Reaper tech all over you could easly have ended up with Curbirus type groups making their own armies of indocronated soldiers. Whole new races from previous unexplored regions could emerge to threaten galatic peace, look how much influiance humans gained in only 30 years.

Even many of the events could of been glossed over in this future ME universe. The Genophage maybe even with the Solarian sabatoge it ends up working though just on a slightly less effective level that negates itself over 3K+ years. The Quarians could have only a small number of survives whether it's from their heavy losses against the geth or their losses to the reapers over Earth. Even if geth were killed perhaps the quarians simply rebuild them a few centuries later having had time to reflect on their past mistakes.

And just like at times with real history here on Earth after a few thousand years stories get revised and retold to the point where you have several controdictions and some people even speculating the events are entirely fictional to begin with. Some groups may view Shepard as a legend while others simple think he was a made up figure reflecting the efforts of several different individuals as happens sometimes with Legends, the fact that you had that one fan who went around pretending to be you would end up leaving evidence to that theory as well. Also their is Shepards death and revival which I'm sure historians centuries after the fact would point to as evidence that the "Shepard" character of legend was simple a collection of several different people's stories told to form a cohessive whole. And now that I'm thinking about it that might of actually been the intent with the man and child on that planet with the kid asking if it really happened. But then I remember the rest of the ending and think that would be giving them to much credit, much like the Indoctronation theory people are doing.

They could of done so much with that and we would of eaten it up like the Star Wars fans did with KOTOR. But instead we are all left with a bad taste in our mouth barely wanting to even look at the franchise because more than anything Bioware has violated our trust. Trust can take years to build but only a moment to destroy. And once it's destroied it can never truely be rebuilt. Because the lingering doubt caused when it was originally broken.

[Spyre2001]

SpeedDevil89 wrote...

I've been thinking, this whole deal reminds of something I heard somewhere, sometime... Bad press is better than none (substitute press with: advertising, fame, reputation, whatever else you think is more appropriate, end result is the same).

Actually I think that was more true in the age before the internet. The reason was advertising was hard and expensive. So if you could get people to talk about whatever it happen to be than it was free advertising. I rememeber one of the famous examples was of one of the first porn movie showing in theaters. It had all sorts of headlines and despite the intention of all the up tight individuals trying to bring attention to it as something evil they instead got a ton of people to find out about this small indy film that would of otherwise gone unnoticed. And the movie ended up making tons of money.

The reason I say the age of the internet has change this is because before people would talk whatever the topic was and would be interested in evaluating it for themselves. In an age with gated content where the big media companies held the gate keys this meant more people to charge admission to. But now thanks to youtube, torrents, and etc. people no longer have to pay to see what the contriversal topic is all about. People don't need to run out and buy ME3 and play through to see the crappy ending that everyone is talking about they just go view it on youtube. Then they join on the bandwagon of BW screwed up along with the mind set of "Well glad I didn't pay for that POS, oh and seems BW makes crap so not gonna buy their stuff in the future."

If anyone can get away with Bad press is better than no press it's probably Celbreties because they need to trade on their fame. But when it comes to actual products, then ya Bad news is just Bad for business. Like I'm sure Toyota wasn't saying "Bad news is better then no news" when their cars were getting recalled for pedal failure issues.

[MOELANDER]

I love this thread so much, I printed out the OP and hung it out on our pinboard at work. Most of the guys and gals who read it agree.

[comanche warior]

Bump

[slyguy07]

Bump. Good stuff.

[CDRSkyShepard]

LOOKIT! Forbes is at it again!

This time, it's regarding the Turn on/ Turn off campaign. This is great news!

[Madecologist]

Hehehe... indeed,

Also, I like the fact that some mainstream reviews (they tend to sometimes review games but usually ridiculously late) are reviewing Mass Effect 3 and they all seem to say the same thing about the ending. That it is lacking.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 03:34 .

[sammysoso]

 These videos are probably the best things I've seen explaining why the ending (and other parts of the game) make NO SENSE. All from YouTube user smudboy

 

 \\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=g-u-u 

These videos are amazing because there's no overt emotional bias from the guy, just pointing out things that are objectively WRONG.

[GuardianAngel470]

sammysoso wrote...

 These videos are probably the best things I've seen explaining why the ending (and other parts of the game) make NO SENSE. All from YouTube user smudboy

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=g-u-u 

These videos are amazing because there's no overt emotional bias from the guy, just pointing out things that are objectively WRONG.

Most people here don't like Smudboy and he is most definitely biased. That dislike goes all the way back to his ban and his ME2 videos that were extended nitpick collections.

He often raises good points but they generally get buried by his bad ones.

[Madecologist]

He finally has his part 4 up... sweet.

I don't always agree with him, he makes some points based on things that he didn't pay attention to. Like literally I can look at the thing he complained about and be like "oh my! -5 marks for not paying attention." But I mean this in general, not specifically these videos. But considering the amount of disertation he does I guess it is only natural to fub up.

He has been more spot on with his ME3 video series, he makes some very interesting points. Even if you don't agree with all them, it makes you think about it. Which is always the important part, to think about what you see or read.

In the case of ME3's ending, the more you think about it... the more you realise... it is worst.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 07:21 .

[sammysoso]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

 These videos are probably the best things I've seen explaining why the ending (and other parts of the game) make NO SENSE. All from YouTube user smudboy

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&feature=g-u-u 

These videos are amazing because there's no overt emotional bias from the guy, just pointing out things that are objectively WRONG.

Most people here don't like Smudboy and he is most definitely biased. That dislike goes all the way back to his ban and his ME2 videos that were extended nitpick collections.

He often raises good points but they generally get buried by his bad ones.

Whoa, I'm new here. Didn't know there was bad blood. 

I watched his stuff, and while it is nitpicky most of the points he raises are valid, can't really hate on facts.

[Ostro Bothnia]

Harbinger. Wasted potential on climax.

[Madecologist]

sammysoso wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Most people here don't like Smudboy and he is most definitely biased. That dislike goes all the way back to his ban and his ME2 videos that were extended nitpick collections.

He often raises good points but they generally get buried by his bad ones.

Whoa, I'm new here. Didn't know there was bad blood. 

I watched his stuff, and while it is nitpicky most of the points he raises are valid, can't really hate on facts.

You had to be here during the ME2 days. I had a more neutral open minded post earlier. But if I will be more candid, he is pretty arrogant and has many bias. Also he has the bad habit of nitpicking something for 5 minutes when the explaination was actually in the game (maybe he missed the dialogue or something).

Worst part is, some of them are actually dialgoue... in the game... so the 'you can't soley rely on the codex for explaination, it needs to be in the narrative' defense is moot. Also considering he does use the Codex to support some of his claims, it is dishonest to even use that as a defense.

Also the reason he is so hated by many here is that you can't debate a single thing with him. No matter what sort of counter arguement you throw at him (even if backed by proof)... he will stick his fingers in his ears, and then insult you blatantly. Not just ignore, literally dismiss and insult. He has never admited to making a mistake or being wrong.

Even Jim Sterling admits to making mistakes...

I enjoy watching him only because when he makes good points it's fun, but when he makes flawed points I interally figure out what his mistake was. It is sort of a thought exercise, the ones my professors used to do in back in college.

That said: ME3 does deserve his treatment. If only for the recent 'ego' Bioware has been exhibiting. If smudboy is considered arrogant... Bioware may have finally eclisped him by a few light years.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Sanrei]

Bump.

In regards to the latest Forbes article, I too am amazed at how many people are still here, actually holding the line. Too often I've seen causes die down way too quickly, I'm glad that it's different. I'm sure the numbers have dropped, but this is like a slow burn. It'll be a while before things die down to just a soft murmer.

Sometimes I get annoyed with myself because the way the game left me hanging has me feeling a little obsessed. I work, eat, play games, clean/garden/work out.. my life is pretty much the same... But every time I sit down to my computer I have to check in here, or /r/masseffect, or something related to the previous games or the ending. I imagine that if the game had ended spectacularly I'd be spending this time with my other play-throughs so that makes me feel a little better.

Modifié par PedEgg, 26 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Jianni]

Thank you for organizing this

[Sanrei]

Bump! You've been down, down for far too long, little thread!

[Arisugawa]

Madecologist wrote...

He finally has his part 4 up... sweet.

I don't always agree with him, he makes some points based on things that he didn't pay attention to. Like literally I can look at the thing he complained about and be like "oh my! -5 marks for not paying attention." But I mean this in general, not specifically these videos. But considering the amount of disertation he does I guess it is only natural to fub up.

He has been more spot on with his ME3 video series, he makes some very interesting points. Even if you don't agree with all them, it makes you think about it. Which is always the important part, to think about what you see or read.

In the case of ME3's ending, the more you think about it... the more you realise... it is worst.

I hated how he kept harping on the fricking Cain taking out the Hades Cannon. I understand the lower half of the Hades Cannon looks like a Destroyer, and potentially it might have been built from a Destroyer superstructure. But it wasn't meant to be a Destroyer, and I didn't for a moment think that using a Cain was going to stop a Destroyer. I can accept it destroying a weapon, but not a Reaper.

And he went on and on and on and on about using the Cain on other Destroyers.

[Madecologist]

I don't think this video is appropriate for the original post, but it is still an interesting video to watch and I will share it with the thread.

www.youtube.com/watch

Go to minute 13:00 if you only care about the ending (and the lack of Harbinger) of the game. He tries to look at it from a more game problem perspective than that of a bad writing only. Which is interesting to watch.

He does swear a lot, and if you do decide to watch the whole video (still some interesting points about the whole game if you ask me) I have to warn you... there is one point where he will 'squeel', It nearly knocked me off my chair with my megabass headphones on.

[Madecologist]

Arisugawa wrote...

I hated how he kept harping on the fricking Cain taking out the Hades Cannon. I understand the lower half of the Hades Cannon looks like a Destroyer, and potentially it might have been built from a Destroyer superstructure. But it wasn't meant to be a Destroyer, and I didn't for a moment think that using a Cain was going to stop a Destroyer. I can accept it destroying a weapon, but not a Reaper.

And he went on and on and on and on about using the Cain on other Destroyers.

That is what I was refering to when I politely said "he seems to not pay attention" or in my later post where I was more scalding of his style.

It alright to raise the question of how effective Cain's could have been in other situation but he seems to assume Hades Cannons are full Destroyers (when even I knew they were not) and then he harps about it for like 3 minutes and keep harping about it through the whole video.

It is fine to raise questions or slam something that is blantantly stupid. He does raise a good point of what is a Thanix Missile. We know what a Thanix Cannon is, but we also know it is a gun that fires a stream of superheated superfast metal. How does this translate to a missile (which are explosive warheads usually) is unknown.

The other flaw is the constant insulting. I can imagine it is hard not to do a ME3 ending video without tossing a few out in the process. But he would constantly insult and repeat the insult. We heard you first time .

It is actually funny when he does it for something that just 10 seconds before the scene was properly explained, makes you go "not my fault you weren't paying attention." As I said before, woe if you try to point it out to him.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Spyre2001]

The thing is it will die. I heard some people say Bioware doesn't care because by 'tapping' into the new market they will get more money than the ever did before so we don't matter anymore. The big mistake is people assume Bioware can compete in the 'new markets'.

Certainly they can draw upon them, but to think they are a shoe in to compete inside of it... is a little laughable at best. I will explain why. I usually am in these forms as a fan on Bioware, but now I shall finally speak as a fan of GoW and Halo. I will speak as someone that entirely comes from that school of gaming.

snip...

It's sad they think that they can brush off their old customers in favor of new ones because their are more "new ones". It's like a sports car company suddenly deciding their are more people driving SUVs so they slowly change their car models to be more SUV like. Then they end up in this wierd middle area with kind of bulky sports car that's not quite an SUV. So the people who wanted a "REAL" sports car go some where else and the people interested in an SUV simply buy one from an actual SUV dealer. Sure they may get some new customers intrugied by the idea but odds are it's not going to end well.

The funny thing is BW made ME2 more shooty to draw in a wider audiance yet the sales numbers listed show that ME1 and ME2 sold about the same number of copies. So it doesn't look like it really drew in that many more people. I get my figured off VGChartz site. And so far while ME3 is about 300K more in sales compared to how many ME2 had sold by this point (Week 6 is highest it goes for ME3 currently) you can see most of those are from the week 1 sales or pre-orders, so people who bought it because the previous one was so good.

It's kind of like what happen with Dragon Age 2. The first couple weeks sales were practically double that of original release. But they fell off a cliff as word got out how crappy it was. In the end the total sales for DA2 were pitiful compared to the original. If EA hadn't rushed BW and BW had stuck to their previous traditions of quality DA2 would of likely out sold the original. Heck even though ME2 did as well as ME1 I recall hearing a lot of people say it wasn't as good as ME1, but that's a topic for another time.

Because these types of games are more Nitch than TPS/FPS they do have a smaller audiance. But the thing is developers targeting us often know this so reputation is key. Where as the TPS/FPS markets are so broad you can toss out a terrible game and your bound to catch some suckers willing to pay to give it a shot. So it's much easier to cover the cost. While here in the nitch market quality and reputation are everything.

We fans in these nitch markets can be just as avid as fans in sports games, buying up every title in a series or that a curtain developer makes. And can be very forgiving of missteps, especially when the developers admit they messed up. As such companies live and die in these nitch markets based on their reputation with their fans.

The other thing is if they make the game good enough it will draw in people from the other audiances who may not of otherwise been interested in the nitch game. Because they are looking for something DIFFERENT. If they want more of the same they will stay with what they have got. The RPG market in general is considered a nitch market and yet Skyrim has sold 11.6M copies which is more than all 3 ME games put together to date. There aren't many FPS that see those kind of numbers except for maybe the top 2 in the FPS market.

Another so called Nitch is RTS market yet if you look at Starcraft 2 it sold 3.5M copies which doesn't seem so nitch considering none of the ME games have sold that many. Blizzard though has a nack for excelling in nitch markets though, just look at WoW which came out back when MMORPGs were considered very nitch. Even though I'm not really a fan of WoW or MMORPGs in general these days, I grew tired of them.

The difference between Blizzard and EA is that Blizzard has the mind set of they are not going to release something until it's ready and it is a quality product. They even scrapped one game that was fairly far along instead of trying to simply toss it out the door in hopes of making some sales. Because they know reputation is the most important business asset you can have. Where as EA thinks making a quick buck and milking customers for as much money as possible is the best practice. And the EA mindset has taken over at BW.

The problem with the nitch markets is not the lack of an audiance but rather the lack of refinement by those trying to break into it. A lot of smaller developers often compete in the nitch markets because there is less competition. They would get drowned out by all the big name marketing of the "mainstream" games. Since their often smaller studios they don't need to sell as much to break even but also they have less polish to their games, and I'm not talking GFX. I mean cluncky UI, slightly off game mechanics, and so on. Because of the lack of polish it turns a lot of people off which helps further create the myth that it's a nitch market where big companies can't make money in.

However in the long run we end up with just a few companies dominating those nitch markets as they have had plenty of time to refine their craft so well that it draws the attention of those outside the so called nitch, much in the way Skyrim does. Which along with other games I think proves that these markets are not so much "Nitch" as they are under developed. Because companies think there is no money they don't invest, thus there are little to no games of those type, because there are little to no games of those type companies think it must be an unprofitable genre to persue.

I mean lets face it most of the nitch genres have 1-2 big name titles that release every 2-3 years, if we are lucky. All those fans of that genre are looking for something else in the mean time. Yet there is no one to fill it. I'm sure a few more franchises could slip in to fill in the mix and in turn make their companies some money. But instead it seems too many companies, like EA, want to instead take their nitch products and reshape them into something completely different in order to sell to mainstream while under the delusion that their nitch fans will happily go along for the ride. No thanks but there is a reason we are hanging out here in NitchVille and not in the mainstream, if we waited mainstream we would already have it.

[Sanrei]

ME Universe has put together a little survey. It has its flaws but for those interested, give it spin.

[Spyre2001]

Madecologist wrote...

I don't think this video is
appropriate for the original post, but it is still an interesting video
to watch and I will share it with the thread.

www.youtube.com/watch

The
very beginning of that very, "Everything comes to a spectacular
conclusion." I just had to laugh because it's not the kind of
spectacular we were expecting. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]

Watching this video as well as some others has actually lowered my opinion of Bioware even further. I guess
it was a case of the ugly best friend, where a girl has an ugly friend
she hangs out with and it makes her look that much better. We have all
be so focused on how bad the ending was we have overlooked much of the
flaws in the rest of the game.

As the guy points out in his video the key element to ME series has always been creating
our own stories through the dialog wheel. And yet they kept simplfing
it through out the series till we get to ME3 with mostly Auto-Dialog.

The
great parts I think we are giving them to much credit on as well. Once a
story has established it's characters well enough they take on a life
of their own. In many regards the author actually looses some of the
creative freedom he had when creating the world. At this point even the
fans can get a sense of where things are going and how they could
potentially wrap up. At this point it's simply up to the author to
choose which of these limit paths they wish to take unless their
skillful enough to write a way out that doesn't break the world. BW it
seems took the former choice for most of the game which maybe why we got
the latter choice for the ending. Feeling they were simply going
through the motions the two head writers took it upon themselves to
leave their own creative mark with an out of left field ending.

It's
feeling more and more like the reaper war. Either our fandom will go
down fighting until the last of us simply moves on. Or our fandom slips
to Indoctronation and people become yes men or appologist for BW.

Modifié par Spyre2001, 26 avril 2012 - 11:30 .