96 réponses à ce sujet

[WQFNHJNHNFNFNFBFNFN]

One quick question for those who completely dismiss indoctrination.

Why is that annoying little kid on the Citadel? The common explanation is that the Reaper god was assuming a form that would be sympathetic to Shepard, but how did he know which form to take? There had to be some element of mind reading or mind control in the ending.

[Smiley556]

I find it interesting that the indoctrination theory presents an enourmous list of proof, and the people who dont believe it only present 'I dont buy it, I prefer believing inconsistancies and plotholes. Also, I hate the ending cos it has inconsistencies and plotholes'. People just seem so blinded at their intend to vent their rage and anger at bioware/ea.

[Gowienczyk]

I'm more compelled by the theory then anything else.

[dakka dakka]

I for one am being indoctrinated...... I can almost accept the endings at this point. But... if the endings are to stick and this IS the end....... Why does Shepard Live?

Something tells me we still have a fight to finish

[magikbbg]

Sorry adding to my above post about Destroying civilization letting reapers win option. Like Shepard would say, hey reapers I've been on your side from the start. I gathered all the worlds military right here so you can destroy them all in one fell swoop. Lol

[DarkSeraphym]

Hop on there and you will also find a classic case of confirmation bias.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Revan312]

The best ending is the one where you uninstall the game and gain 13 gigs of hard drive space, saving billions of bits of information from being devoured by the abomination that is Mass Effect 3.

I saved all those billions of bytes once before too, when BSG ended the way it did and I wiped that travesty off my drive as well..

Lets all celebrate the combined forces of the add/remove programs tool and the trash bin for saving the day!!

[recentio]

I think it's obvious that the ending was intended to be taken at face value. The setups with the kid all point to it being real. It would be the height of folly to use a hallucination as a conclusion in a narrative that was always matter-of-fact before that point and never once touched the idea of anyone having such hallucinations, much less the main character suddenly has one at the very end. /roll credits

The one and only connection I can even imagine I see if I squint really hard is kid+nightmare --> kid+hallucination. But I don't buy it for a second. Just like I didn't buy the "secret" ending rumors before release.

I can only laugh at the fact that the ending is so bad that people will bend over backwards searching for a conspiracy theory to accept instead. That degree of rejection is a testament to how wretched the current ending really is.

However, now that indoctrination has been put on the table, I kind of hope BW jumps on it as a way out of this mess. I'd let the after-the-fact use of that technique go in a heartbeat if it meant a less negative ending option could become available...I want it that badly. Not badly enough to delude myself into believing it now, but badly enough to choke it down if it was used as an escape avenue for a DLC option.

Modifié par recentio, 13 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[Dreogan]

I absolutely agree with indoctrination/dream being textbook denial. The worst thing we can do at this point is to provide something for Bioware to point back at and say "look how much they're discussing the ending! It's really deep!"

We need to simply reject the ending, send it back for revision, and accept the fact that an ending simply does not exist for the Trilogy at this point in time. If an ending never exists, then there's no reason for our patronage to exist when they release another game/mission dlc/multiplayer dlc.

[noobcannon]

coldlogic82 wrote...

Look, I want it to be true.  I want this indoctrination crap to be true.  Because even though it would be pretty sick, and even though it would be like telling someone their mother died and here's a picture of her decapitated head and then going, haha, just kidding, wasn't that funny?, I would still buy into it.

In fact, buying into the theory is remarkably tempting for other reasons too.  The ending really feels like it was written by someone completely different than the rest of the series.  It sounds like all the writers died in a horrific secret car accident and and they found the intern with the biggest light saber collection to finish it up.  That's the ONLY reason I'd buy into it.

But I don't buy into it because, sadly, this is pretty much textbook classical denial.  People are getting over the initial shock, and the first thing we do when something that matters to us becomes...  whatever it is, we deny it.  I mean, how many of us, after that ending, waited on the edge of our seats to hear it was a big joke?  How many of us thought it had to be something WE did.  We missed a key conversation, forgot to do something incredibly important, didn't read a PDA in a dark corner that gave us what we needed to avoid this horrific ending?

I appreciate the theory, and sadly, the ending is so poorly written, it's got some traction.  But all the foreshadowing in the entire game, many conversations, many hints dropped here and there, show this is the ending that was intended. 

I think it would be healthier for us all to just accept that. 

Will they change the ending?  Probably not, but maybe.  It's not impossible, especially since it looks like it's starting to affect their pockets.  If there really were a different ending, it would have come out when the prices started dropping, post release date sales plummeted, and even their stock value dropped as much as it initially raised.  You really think the stock holders and execs at EA would be okay with losing that kind of money for a super secret Shepard got indoctrinated stunt?  Putting the game world aside, there's just too many things in the real world that say it's not happening.  I'm not saying you can't hold the line if you don't want (hell, I'm never buying another bioware game again), and maybe that'll change their tune.  But you can hold the line and still accept nothing good is coming to the rescue.  Nothing they all ready intended at least. 

have you played any of the other ME games? indoctrination is a huge part of the trilogy and it makes perfect sense in this situation. can you even offer a counter-argument other than "wishful thinking" and "too many things in the real world that say it's not happening"? what things exactly? if you haven't checked it out you should read some of the posts on the the indoctrination theory thread. they point out alot of things you might have missed during the end game that could change your mind. they changed mine.

Modifié par noobcannon, 13 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[ed87]

jreezy wrote...

Very few people have accepted the endings for what they are. I've been laughing at all the theories people have been coming up with.

I think most like myself have accepted the endings for what they are... pure blasphemy.

We are now using our efforts for more useful things than hallucinating about the ending... holding the line

[WhiteJoker]

WQFNHJNHNFNFNFBFNFN wrote...

One quick question for those who completely dismiss indoctrination.

Why
is that annoying little kid on the Citadel? The common explanation is
that the Reaper god was assuming a form that would be sympathetic to
Shepard, but how did he know which form to take? There had to be some
element of mind reading or mind control in the ending.

The same reason why Sheperd sees Quarians in their suits instead of without them when he's exploring the Geth hub.  The Geth didn't read his mind or influence it, they simply showed data which his mind then interpreted as the closests analogue in order to make sense of it.

Smiley556 wrote...

I find it interesting that the indoctrination theory presents an
enourmous list of proof, and the people who dont believe it only present
'I dont buy it, I prefer believing inconsistancies and plotholes. Also,
I hate the ending cos it has inconsistencies and plotholes'. People
just seem so blinded at their intend to vent their rage and anger at
bioware/ea.

Because it's not proof unless the powers that be explicitly state "Sheperd was indoctrinated" or something in game outright says as much.  Neither of these are the case which makes it speculation, nothing more.  Great speculation sure, well reasoned and analyzed, but it's still speculation.

I don't prefer to believe inconsistencies and plotholes, I prefer to believe this ending was garbage and I in no way plan on justifying it because it is just that, unjustifiable.  In doing so I acknowledge that the ending I made up for myself is just that, fantasy, and I'm perfectly fine with that.  Just as I am still disastified with what we were given.  This is this and that is that, they are not mutually exclusive. 

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, the idea that it was all a dream or some dream-state metaphor that the Reapers conjured up to trick Sheperd is nearly as unjustifiable an ending in the narrative sense as what we were given; it isn't a step up, it's a step sideways and still bad if that was Bioware's intention.  All it does is handwave away the problems with their ending when presented as is and that is lazy writing.

The point of this entire outrage isn't to force Bioware to accept our versions of the ending, it's not to force them to make something that fits with our fantasy.  The point is to say "We came into this because we trusted what you were telling us and we didn't get that with the end so please keep the promises you've been telling us.  Show us an ending that fits the rest of the series and vindicates that trust we have, that exemplifies why every other story telling aspect of this game was phenominal because that's what endings should do."  Trying to force people, and Bioware, to accept the indoctrination theory or any other theory cheapens that because it's a cop out.

Modifié par WhiteJoker, 13 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[Phydeaux314]

We did that, too, Dreo.

It's the "So we can't get the ending we want" thread, that's probably going to break a thousand pages in the next day or two. It's represented in the pull that has nearly thirty thousand votes. It's the eighteen thousand people in the facebook group. It's the news articles popping up on Forbes, Kotaku (yes, a couple good ones), MSNBC, and the like.

[BurtieBee]

WQFNHJNHNFNFNFBFNFN wrote...

One quick question for those who completely dismiss indoctrination.

Why is that annoying little kid on the Citadel? The common explanation is that the Reaper god was assuming a form that would be sympathetic to Shepard, but how did he know which form to take? There had to be some element of mind reading or mind control in the ending.

I also thought this, until my husband pointed out that the Protheans could do much the same. Javik, despite never having met your ME2 crew, could "read" the ship and tell you the impressions left by them.

Seems like it's something the Reapers also would have been able to master.

[HKR148]

Clear sign of denial, which is reason why I refuse to discuss about it in any detail. However I must concede that it is strange that the vent-kid's voice is a combination of different actors and the ending choice (paragon/renegade) option color being flipped.

Modifié par HKR148, 13 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[Rocktel]

Smiley556 wrote...

I find it interesting that the indoctrination theory presents an enourmous list of proof, and the people who dont believe it only present 'I dont buy it, I prefer believing inconsistancies and plotholes. Also, I hate the ending cos it has inconsistencies and plotholes'. People just seem so blinded at their intend to vent their rage and anger at bioware/ea.

The indoctrination theory has no list of proof, it has a list of ways you could interpret things and then calls it proof.

classic denial.

[Lost Cipher]

WQFNHJNHNFNFNFBFNFN wrote...

One quick question for those who completely dismiss indoctrination.

Why is that annoying little kid on the Citadel? The common explanation is that the Reaper god was assuming a form that would be sympathetic to Shepard, but how did he know which form to take? There had to be some element of mind reading or mind control in the ending.

The child is all that Shepard's mind can choose to represent this unknowable force. A force that caused great devastation and destruction upon the human race. Which the child was chosen to represent.

[noobcannon]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

We did that, too, Dreo.

It's the "So we can't get the ending we want" thread, that's probably going to break a thousand pages in the next day or two. It's represented in the pull that has nearly thirty thousand votes. It's the eighteen thousand people in the facebook group. It's the news articles popping up on Forbes, Kotaku (yes, a couple good ones), MSNBC, and the like.

just want to say i believe the indoctrination theory and think we'll get a patch from bioware soon to properly finish the game. that said i agree that there isn't much in the way of proof, but there IS a ton of evidence. A TON. and not much counter-argument; other than "wishful thinking". perhaps people are sore they didn't figure it out on their own?

[DarkSeraphym]

noobcannon wrote...

have you played any of the other ME games? indoctrination is a huge part of the trilogy and it makes perfect sense in this situation. can you even offer a counter-argument other than "wishful thinking" and "too many things in the real world that say it's not happening"? what things exactly? if you haven't checked it out you should read some of the posts on the the insoctrination theory thread. they point out alot of things you might have missed during the end game that could change your mind. they changed mine.

They do bring up interesting things that are worth considering, however it seems to me like a lot of the evidence that has been presented has been analyzed under confirmation bias. That is not to say that I am faulting any of them for that, confirmation bias is a very real problem when you try to analyze evidence that you have an emotional attachment to (or at least an attachment to the outcome). Regardless though, the problem with that approach is that it means you will interpret any evidence presented as supporting your theory in some fashion. classic example, the field of medicine used to believe that sperm cells were actually miniature people that were being deposited in the womb. Once they had the ability to analyze those cells for themselves, that is exactly what they saw, tiny people. That theory has obviously been dismissed today, but that is what they believed and when presented the opportunity to analyze evidence, they interpreted it in a supportive manner. It seems to me like much of the evidence that is being presented in that thread has the same issue.

Truth be told, its hard to argue with individuals who have submitted to that kind of bias anyway. Evidence that is presented for a counterargument will inevitably be interpreted to support the theory in some fashion.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[Lost Cipher]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

have you played any of the other ME games? indoctrination is a huge part of the trilogy and it makes perfect sense in this situation. can you even offer a counter-argument other than "wishful thinking" and "too many things in the real world that say it's not happening"? what things exactly? if you haven't checked it out you should read some of the posts on the the insoctrination theory thread. they point out alot of things you might have missed during the end game that could change your mind. they changed mine.

They do bring up interesting things that are worth considering, however it seems to me like a lot of the evidence that has been presented has been analyzed under confirmation bias. That is not to say that I am faulting any of them for that, confirmation bias is a very really problem when you try to analyze evidence that you have an emotional attachment to (or at least an attachment to the outcome). Regardless though, the problem with that approach is that it means you will interpret any evidence presented as supporting your theory in some fashion. classic example, the field of medicine used to believe that sperm cells were actually miniature people that were being deposited in the womb. Once they had the ability to analyze those cells for themselves, that is exactly what they saw, tiny people. It seems to me like much of the evidence that is being presented in that thread has the same issue.

I agree. We wish to see things in places when they don't exist. Why clinical drug users never think of themselves as having a problem.

Though it would be nice if it was true.

[recentio]

noobcannon wrote...

Phydeaux314 wrote...

We did that, too, Dreo.

It's the "So we can't get the ending we want" thread, that's probably going to break a thousand pages in the next day or two. It's represented in the pull that has nearly thirty thousand votes. It's the eighteen thousand people in the facebook group. It's the news articles popping up on Forbes, Kotaku (yes, a couple good ones), MSNBC, and the like.

just want to say i believe the indoctrination theory and think we'll get a patch from bioware soon to properly finish the game. that said i agree that there isn't much in the way of proof, but there IS a ton of evidence. A TON. and not much counter-argument; other than "wishful thinking". perhaps people are sore they didn't figure it out on their own?

It's virtually impossible to present counter arguments to sollopistic theories. "All of reality is an illusion." It can't be disproven because any counter-evidence could also be dismissed as another illusion.

In the case of this indoctrination conspiracy, out-of-game arguments about the writing are legitimate, IMO, and can't be shuffled into the pile as yet another illusion the way in-game evidence could. It makes much less sense in the real world that the writers meant for the crap ending to be a hallucination than it does that they meant for it to be the real ending. Occam's Razor leads to the conclusion that it is far, far more likely that the ending, bad as it is, is what BW intended and is not a trick. Would they release a game with a fake ending for review and purchase? Why? Who in their right mind would ever do such a thing? No, they meant it. That's the saddest truth of all...

Modifié par recentio, 13 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[DarkSeraphym]

recentio wrote...

It's virtually impossible to present counter arguments to sollopistic
theories. "All of reality is an illusion." It can't be disproven because
any counter-evidence could also be dismissed as another illusion."

That is another problem that is running rampant with that theory too. Moving the goalposts. Oftentimes, confirmation bias and moving the goalposts go hand-in-hand.

[noobcannon]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

have you played any of the other ME games? indoctrination is a huge part of the trilogy and it makes perfect sense in this situation. can you even offer a counter-argument other than "wishful thinking" and "too many things in the real world that say it's not happening"? what things exactly? if you haven't checked it out you should read some of the posts on the the insoctrination theory thread. they point out alot of things you might have missed during the end game that could change your mind. they changed mine.

They do bring up interesting things that are worth considering, however it seems to me like a lot of the evidence that has been presented has been analyzed under confirmation bias. That is not to say that I am faulting any of them for that, confirmation bias is a very really problem when you try to analyze evidence that you have an emotional attachment to (or at least an attachment to the outcome). Regardless though, the problem with that approach is that it means you will interpret any evidence presented as supporting your theory in some fashion. classic example, the field of medicine used to believe that sperm cells were actually miniature people that were being deposited in the womb. Once they had the ability to analyze those cells for themselves, that is exactly what they saw. It seems to me like much of the evidence that is being presented in that thread has the same issue.

fair enough. i just want to say the 3 things that convinced me more than anything are:

1) the "destroy" ending shows a torso with n7 tags taking a breath under some rubble. assuming that's shepard, did you survive that explosion? in space?

2) when you're talking to spaceboy, you have no helment, and again, you're in space. you could argue that there is some kind of barrier but it's such a huge open area i just think that seems unlikely.

3) doesn't it seem strange that the green option requires you to jump into a magic laser beam to trigger synthesis (saren from me1)? or stand in the blue one for control (illusive man from me3)? but to destroy the reapers you shoot a gun (with infinite ammo mind you) at a console looking contraption and that destroys the reapers. no keypad? no button? nope you shoot at it. also the destroy one is the only one that has the chest breathing under the rubble. the blue and green option incinerate you and for a short bit you look like a husk.

these three things are what have fully convinced me shepard is fighting indoctrination, and yet there's so much more evidence too.  i think we're going to get a patch soon that has the  huge epic "all your descions come together" showdown ending we have been waiting for for 5 years.

[Linus108]

What does it say about the game/writing, that so many fans want this to be true? That they need for it to be true?

BioWare f****n' dropped the ball.

[noobcannon]

Linus108 wrote...

What does it say about the game/writing, that so many fans want this to be true? That they need for it to be true?

BioWare f****n' dropped the ball.

i think they're geniuses. pretty awsome way to emulate indoctrination. i almost feel bad for doubting them.

Modifié par noobcannon, 13 mars 2012 - 06:53 .