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[N-Seven]

Ashilana wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

Also keep in mind that your Shepard is already an early example of an 'improved' being because of Cerberus enhancements.  Does he/she have dignity, and find life worth living?  Or would you say you have no dignity and prefer to die?   Howabout anyone who was modified against their will?  Jack? 

Shepard was altered with the intention of remaining as close to original form as possible, synthesis is the opposite of this.  And Jack.  She would have much rather died fighting as a child than let them alter her like they did.

Shepard is improved, and his nature altered.  I could just as easily argue that Shepard would prefer to stay dead as you can argue Jack would prefer to be dead.

You can't make an assumption, especially on this scale, that anyone would prefer to be dead over synthesised.  If after synthesis they would prefer to be dead then they can make that choice and euthanise themselves.  If you don't synthesize them, then no one has a choice because they're all killed (against their will) by red laser beams from giant honking monsters and their bodies harvested.

Modifié par N-Seven, 22 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[HooblaDGN]

I find the synthesis ending deeply racist and disturbing, but I found each choice disturbing in its own way. As Shep says, we fight or we die, but you're not really given an option to fight in the end, so to me each just represents a different kind of galactic death. I hate that this is how my typical hero story is forced to end.

Modifié par HooblaDGN, 22 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[o Ventus]

Yeah, I like gassing everyone with space magic too.

Oh, plus the whole "implied Big Brother society" thing, plus the unification of every single being in the galaxy, advanced or not, and the loss of all identity. Destroy + gasping is looking pretty good right about now.

[N-Seven]

By the way I find this conversation much more interesting than reading about the raging in the bazillion other threads.

[HWM BlacKnight]

DNA changes as extreme as this would cause every living thing to die due to the extreme stresses on the body, it just makes no sense. I picked the destroy option after godchild tried to explain synthesis

Besides this is one of the things we've been fighting since ME1 as we want diversity.

[N-Seven]

o Ventus wrote...

Yeah, I like gassing everyone with space magic too.

Oh, plus the whole "implied Big Brother society" thing, plus the unification of every single being in the galaxy, advanced or not, and the loss of all identity. Destroy + gasping is looking pretty good right about now.

Well, we don't really know if synthesis causes a loss of identity.  It's a big mystery.  For all we know it's a change that (initially at least) exists only on the physical level.  I see no definitive proof that any sort of 'hive mind' mentality becomes prevalent or that individuality disappears.  As far as I can tell Joker still has a weird robot fetish, and in the future parents still like to tell cornball stories to their kids at night. 

[BrotherlyTech]

N-Seven wrote...

BrotherlyTech wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

I still haven't seen anyone really respond to my 'doctor' analogy. 

If you were a doctor, and a patient was delivered to you who is dying.  You know nothing about this person.  You can save this person by applying a new treatment, procedure, or transplant.  In fact it's theorized that not only will the patient live, but they will emerge from it as an 'improved' or more highly-evolved being.

What you do not know however, is if this patient might object to the procedure based on religious or some other personal  beliefs.  Time is ticking....what do you do?  

The doctor analogy is a good one yes. However it doesn't really apply, in fact it doesn't really apply at all. Lets break it down.
If you were a doctor, and a patient was delivered to you who is dying.
Ok, easy enough, I took an oath to do no harm. Done, in the mindframe.
You know nothing about this person.  You can save this person by applying a new treatment, procedure, or transplant.
Ok, I don't know allergies or whether or not this person has signed a DNR, or if they want their organs donated. The procedure, also would have to directly negate actual science or kill them to save them, since we're comparing exactly what Shep argued against in game one, only to make the decision to do in game three, my choice in this would have to be directly against what I stand for as a doctor, i.e. saving lives, but again for the sake of this example, we're ignoring that nice little piece of the equation.
In fact it's theorized that not only will the patient live, but they
will emerge from it as an 'improved' or more highly-evolved being.
I also don't know whether this person will even perceive themselves as a person afterwards, its also a procedure thats never been done before, ever, in fact I made it up as the person was brought before me, and it also completely defies natural science, and also is a polar opposite of what I've stated before.

Now, as per the fact that I'm not a doctor, nor do I even play one on tv, I can't know the types of decisions they have to make. But what I do know, is that procedures cannot be utilized without approval from the FDA, I believe it is. So I will be forfeiting my medical license to save this one person. "The needs of the many cannot outweight the few" is the oh so historic quote. So all the people I could help in the future, I can no longer help, if I choose to help this one.

Let me phrase it more simply then.  You hold the fate of a stranger in your hands.  You press button A, and the result is 'Death by Reaper'.  Button B is 'Unknown'.   Oh by the way, Button A has the small print, 'Death by Reaper includes you and all your loved ones and all sentient life in the galaxy.'  

You asked for a response on your doctors analogy, I provided one.
You are now attempting to merge an ethical issue with a moral one, thus convoluting what you claim is why Synthesis is a great ending. As well as speculating the death of everyone, which I can neither confirm nor deny.
You are presenting me with a no win scenario, which is exactly the opposite of what you are trying to quantify.
For all I know, "Button B" could destroy the Universe, thus, I'll just leave both buttons alone.
Now if the options are "Possible death by Reapers" and "You are transformed, along with every other being in the galaxy" I'm gonna take my chances with Possible death by Reapers, as I don't believe its my perogative to chose the latter.

[Sassafrass23]

I can understand why one would like the synthesis ending however i find it abhorrent. Who are we to force a DNA change upon the entire galaxy forcing every species code to be near identical. Mordin solus taught us that diversity is what made life beautiful and that we should never force evolution upon others and let it progress naturally. This is why he deeply regrets uplifting the krogan.

[akana-may]

Options?

1) Destroy = you have to sacrifice Geth, EDI.. not ethically acceptable
2) Control = may be perfect, but risky (we all seen that controling reapers is not an easy thing, and even Child say something like "do you think you can control us?")
3) Synthesis = unknown results, nobody dies, but will they still be themselfs? (it seems so.. Joker EDI still being couple and so...)

My opinion: writers considered Synthesis as the right choice, EDIs body was called Eva (coincidence?), and they crash land in new "paradise word".....

Well if they just got rid of that "whole craw is back on Normandy" nonsence....

[BrotherlyTech]

N-Seven wrote...

By the way I find this conversation much more interesting than reading about the raging in the bazillion other threads.

As do I, I'm enjoying the debate.

[shinobi602]

It was indeed beautifully terrible.

[D.Shepard]

The problem here is what the Starchild says in relation to Control, And I am sorry you haven't finished the game(I wish I hadn't. I don't want to spoiler stuff, but lets just say to keep the dialog open, he says (Loosely translated)
"You can try to control us, TIM couldn't, but you might be able to." So it leaves it open that Shep's mind could be changed in the future, or that eventually the Reapers opinion could effectively influence him after millenia of arguing.
It doesn't say "You change the reapers for good, and we will do what you say for the rest of eternity," it simply leaves it at a "You control us....for now" kind of feeling..

Why everything this "entity" says should be the truth?
Sovereign said Shepard would be unable to stop the invasion and it become "spare parts"
Don't worry about spoilers... given the nature of the "endings" I guess spoilers can help me selecting what I may consider the less drepessing ending.... even though I doubt it really exists

HooblaDGN wrote...

I find the synthesis ending deeply racist and disturbing, but I found each choice disturbing in its own way. As Shep says, we fight or we die, but you're not really given an option to fight in the end, so to me each just represents a different kind of galactic death. I hate that this is how my typical hero story is forced to end.

Good point. " I found each choice disturbing": simply true

Modifié par D.Shepard, 22 mars 2012 - 06:43 .

[Joolazoo]

Furluge wrote...

I remember that bit with Saren, but I think there's a bit of a difference between Sovreign filling Saren with a bunch of implants and using Shepard as a basis for a new form of life. I mean we're talking DNA doesn't even exist in its current form after the synthesis ending.

Now I want to point out. I don't particularly like any of the endings, but yeah if I have to choose one, that's the one I go with.

Also as far as what it does... well they did say they still had no idea what the Crucible would actually do. I'm not terribly surprised that it can do something pretty much incomprehensible. (Because it is, there's just no way you can have a game set after that point because you'd spend all your time explaining, "How the %#@%! does that work?!")

Karrie788 wrote...

Honestly, PLEASE enlighten me. I fail to see what the synthesis ending accomplishes, and I fail to see it as "salvation".

Please. Explain.

(And I don't think any of us cares about Shepard living or dying at this point.)

Ok, I'm just going to run down my train of thought on this one. And note, your train of thought on this might be different, and that's ok, because again, they're all terrible endings. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking something else.

A) Let's assume the ending is real. Because if it's really indoctrination or a dream, I don't want to get into it.. and honestly I don't think they would pull something that convoluted. (Though now that it's been suggested I don't put it past them saying, "Oh yeah we meant to do that.")

 Let's assume the Spacebaby is being honest. Why, because if it's not some weird dream, I don't see why it really needs to lie to you at point. And if it is lying, it's a terrible liar, and you think it'd do a better job in steering you toward a particular choice.

C) If choose Destory, the Spacebaby says it will destroy EDI and the Geth and won't actually solve anything. So I have to nix that off my list. I've spent my entire game treating the synthetics as life that deserves the same rights and considerations as anyone else. (I mean would you even consider this ending if it would kill say, all the Quarians and Turians because they're Dextro-amino acid based?) And if it's ultimately futile, that just makes it even worse.

D) If I choose Control Shepard's body is consumed and their will controls the reapers. Maybe I've red to much LOTR but I don't think Shepard's will, merged with the Reapers, is going to stay uncorrupted forever. Not to mention I've spent the entire game telling the Illusive Man it's a bad idea.

E) Which basically leaves me with Synthesis. Which is rather drastic, but it does, again according to the Spacebaby, solve the issue. How? **** if I know. But at the very least it changes everything, human, synthetic, Reaper. I don't have to worry about mad part-reaper shepard, or commiting genocide. As far as I can tell it eliminates their motives for attacking earth since they leave afterward.  Why does it stop people from new synthetics or organics that will destroy them later? **** if I know, I'd have actually know what exactly happens to answer that for you.

I hope you realize the geth are just 0 and 1's in a computer and to compare them to the turians or any other organic being is laughable...and makes no sense what so ever. Legion is nice, and seems to totally go against the geths single identity logic, but he's still just a machine...computing 0's and 1's.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 22 mars 2012 - 06:48 .

[N-Seven]

BrotherlyTech wrote...

Now if the options are "Possible death by Reapers" and "You are transformed, along with every other being in the galaxy" I'm gonna take my chances with Possible death by Reapers, as I don't believe its my perogative to chose the latter.

The way I see it, button A is 'All but guaranteed death by Reapers' and B is 'Survive as an enhanced being'.  I would press button B every time.  I would be mashing the hell out that button.

By the way, I never said it was a great ending.  I stated in other posts that I didn't like it, would have preferred other options.  I'm just arguing for those who do like it.

[BatmanPWNS]

I like destroying stuff, so I destroyed stuff. Didn't go very well for Shep though.

[BrotherlyTech]

D.Shepard wrote...
*snip*
Why everything this "entity" says should be the truth?
Sovereign said Shepard would be unable to stop the invasion and it become "spare parts"
Don't worry about spoilers... given the nature of the "endings" I guess spoilers can help me selecting what I may consider the less drepessing ending.... even though I doubt it really exists
*snip*

This is kind of the point of a lot of the complaints. Shep doesn't ask questions. You aren't able to. You simply get told the options, then get told to pick one, and then boom, thats it. No option for dissproving the the statements made, or even going, "Nuts to this, i'm not picking any of these options, We'll duke it out with the Reapers until no one is left standing even if we lose." and then just walking away.
We are forced to sumbit to three equally bad options, none of which fit the personality of Shepard. And then are shown equally bad cutscenes, that don't make sense. And then the credits roll, and then we might see an additional cutscene or two, that are extremely out of place, and then an advertisement for DLC. 

[N-Seven]

Joolazoo wrote...

Furluge wrote...

I remember that bit with Saren, but I think there's a bit of a difference between Sovreign filling Saren with a bunch of implants and using Shepard as a basis for a new form of life. I mean we're talking DNA doesn't even exist in its current form after the synthesis ending.

Now I want to point out. I don't particularly like any of the endings, but yeah if I have to choose one, that's the one I go with.

Also as far as what it does... well they did say they still had no idea what the Crucible would actually do. I'm not terribly surprised that it can do something pretty much incomprehensible. (Because it is, there's just no way you can have a game set after that point because you'd spend all your time explaining, "How the %#@%! does that work?!")

Karrie788 wrote...

Honestly, PLEASE enlighten me. I fail to see what the synthesis ending accomplishes, and I fail to see it as "salvation".

Please. Explain.

(And I don't think any of us cares about Shepard living or dying at this point.)

Ok, I'm just going to run down my train of thought on this one. And note, your train of thought on this might be different, and that's ok, because again, they're all terrible endings. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking something else.

A) Let's assume the ending is real. Because if it's really indoctrination or a dream, I don't want to get into it.. and honestly I don't think they would pull something that convoluted. (Though now that it's been suggested I don't put it past them saying, "Oh yeah we meant to do that.")

 Let's assume the Spacebaby is being honest. Why, because if it's not some weird dream, I don't see why it really needs to lie to you at point. And if it is lying, it's a terrible liar, and you think it'd do a better job in steering you toward a particular choice.

C) If choose Destory, the Spacebaby says it will destroy EDI and the Geth and won't actually solve anything. So I have to nix that off my list. I've spent my entire game treating the synthetics as life that deserves the same rights and considerations as anyone else. (I mean would you even consider this ending if it would kill say, all the Quarians and Turians because they're Dextro-amino acid based?) And if it's ultimately futile, that just makes it even worse.

D) If I choose Control Shepard's body is consumed and their will controls the reapers. Maybe I've red to much LOTR but I don't think Shepard's will, merged with the Reapers, is going to stay uncorrupted forever. Not to mention I've spent the entire game telling the Illusive Man it's a bad idea.

E) Which basically leaves me with Synthesis. Which is rather drastic, but it does, again according to the Spacebaby, solve the issue. How? **** if I know. But at the very least it changes everything, human, synthetic, Reaper. I don't have to worry about mad part-reaper shepard, or commiting genocide. As far as I can tell it eliminates their motives for attacking earth since they leave afterward.  Why does it stop people from new synthetics or organics that will destroy them later? **** if I know, I'd have actually know what exactly happens to answer that for you.

I hope you realize the geth are just 0 and 1's in a computer and to compare them to the turians or any other organic being is laughable...and makes no sense what so ever. Legion is nice, and seems to totally go against the geths single identity logic, but he's still just a machine...computing 0's and 1's.

Well, the Geth become 'alive' (if you choose) after the mission in Consensus.   But up until that point they don't even consider themselves to be truly alive.  

You can also argue that organics are just...organic machines.  Chemicals flowing around, conditioned responses, synapses firing....very complex organic machines.  But that's too hot of a topic for these forums, I think.

[Frybread76]

IsaacShep wrote...

Forgetting about all the plotholes why did the Normandy ended up on the jungle planet, I'm REALLY liking the synthesis ending. it requires Shep to sacrifice himself completely (in control ending it's just the body), yet seeing EDI and Joker smile and how life got trasformed was just beautiful.

I find it contrived and lame.  I mean we have the whole Adam and Eve thing with Joker and EDI on some unamed Eden.  But the same crap still happens: the relays are destroyed (and, consequently, every system in which the relays were located), Joker and Co. abandon Shepard, and we still have Space Child.

[Klijpope]

BrotherlyTech wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

By the way I find this conversation much more interesting than reading about the raging in the bazillion other threads.

As do I, I'm enjoying the debate.

Yes, this is a proper discussion about the choices at the end, free of the other debate, or more or less.

Which of the three endings do we find morally appropriate?

My first (only) playthrough so far, Shepard went for Synthesis, as it was right for her, saving the Geth and EDI, that she'd worked so hard for. My second playthrough, due to start tomorrow, Shepard will most likely pick Destroy, because he is a c*** and it is how he rolls.

I wonder how many people have picked Control apart from just to see what it looks like?

[Motherlander]

My problem with the synthesis ending is that I can't understand it. I can understand control and destroy. But synthesis I just don't get it.

I don't understand how it works (what are the processes involved resulting in the transformation) and what the consequences are.

One interesting possibility is that Synthesis is "Fool the Reapers". The Reapers believe that everyone is synthetic and so stopped the war. But that is just pure unfounded speculation on my part.

One interesting thing that occurs to me is that some of the human characters are synthetic. You could argue that Shepard from ME2 and ME3 and Miranda are effectively synthetic as they were not born. They were built.

[Lmaoboat]

Joolazoo wrote...

Furluge wrote...

I remember that bit with Saren, but I think there's a bit of a difference between Sovreign filling Saren with a bunch of implants and using Shepard as a basis for a new form of life. I mean we're talking DNA doesn't even exist in its current form after the synthesis ending.

Now I want to point out. I don't particularly like any of the endings, but yeah if I have to choose one, that's the one I go with.

Also as far as what it does... well they did say they still had no idea what the Crucible would actually do. I'm not terribly surprised that it can do something pretty much incomprehensible. (Because it is, there's just no way you can have a game set after that point because you'd spend all your time explaining, "How the %#@%! does that work?!")

Karrie788 wrote...

Honestly, PLEASE enlighten me. I fail to see what the synthesis ending accomplishes, and I fail to see it as "salvation".

Please. Explain.

(And I don't think any of us cares about Shepard living or dying at this point.)

Ok, I'm just going to run down my train of thought on this one. And note, your train of thought on this might be different, and that's ok, because again, they're all terrible endings. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking something else.

A) Let's assume the ending is real. Because if it's really indoctrination or a dream, I don't want to get into it.. and honestly I don't think they would pull something that convoluted. (Though now that it's been suggested I don't put it past them saying, "Oh yeah we meant to do that.")

 Let's assume the Spacebaby is being honest. Why, because if it's not some weird dream, I don't see why it really needs to lie to you at point. And if it is lying, it's a terrible liar, and you think it'd do a better job in steering you toward a particular choice.

C) If choose Destory, the Spacebaby says it will destroy EDI and the Geth and won't actually solve anything. So I have to nix that off my list. I've spent my entire game treating the synthetics as life that deserves the same rights and considerations as anyone else. (I mean would you even consider this ending if it would kill say, all the Quarians and Turians because they're Dextro-amino acid based?) And if it's ultimately futile, that just makes it even worse.

D) If I choose Control Shepard's body is consumed and their will controls the reapers. Maybe I've red to much LOTR but I don't think Shepard's will, merged with the Reapers, is going to stay uncorrupted forever. Not to mention I've spent the entire game telling the Illusive Man it's a bad idea.

E) Which basically leaves me with Synthesis. Which is rather drastic, but it does, again according to the Spacebaby, solve the issue. How? **** if I know. But at the very least it changes everything, human, synthetic, Reaper. I don't have to worry about mad part-reaper shepard, or commiting genocide. As far as I can tell it eliminates their motives for attacking earth since they leave afterward.  Why does it stop people from new synthetics or organics that will destroy them later? **** if I know, I'd have actually know what exactly happens to answer that for you.

I hope you realize the geth are just 0 and 1's in a computer and to compare them to the turians or any other organic being is laughable...and makes no sense what so ever. Legion is nice, and seems to totally go against the geths single identity logic, but he's still just a machine...computing 0's and 1's.

I hope you realize that organic beings are just chemicals and neurons, and that contrasting them to 1's and 0's is a meaningless and narrow-minded distinction

[Dragonfable of Dain]

SPACE FREAKEN MAGIC...... that is all.

[MattFini]

Synthesis is vile, disgusting and turns you into a yes man for the Reapers.

Horrible.

[N-Seven]

BrotherlyTech wrote...

D.Shepard wrote...
*snip*
Why everything this "entity" says should be the truth?
Sovereign said Shepard would be unable to stop the invasion and it become "spare parts"
Don't worry about spoilers... given the nature of the "endings" I guess spoilers can help me selecting what I may consider the less drepessing ending.... even though I doubt it really exists
*snip*

This is kind of the point of a lot of the complaints. Shep doesn't ask questions. You aren't able to. You simply get told the options, then get told to pick one, and then boom, thats it. No option for dissproving the the statements made, or even going, "Nuts to this, i'm not picking any of these options, We'll duke it out with the Reapers until no one is left standing even if we lose." and then just walking away.
We are forced to sumbit to three equally bad options, none of which fit the personality of Shepard. And then are shown equally bad cutscenes, that don't make sense. And then the credits roll, and then we might see an additional cutscene or two, that are extremely out of place, and then an advertisement for DLC. 

This is where I agree with you, the fiercely charismatic, master of debate Shepard just kind of goes out with a whimper here and I full expected more dialogue options.   Granted, he/she is probably out if it a little, bleeding from the gut and who knows where else, but still.

[JerZey CJ]

Any other option besides Destroy = Shepard being Indoctrinated.
Control? That's what TIM wanted and he was...? Indoctrinated.
Synthesize? All organics are now synthetics and the Reapers are still alive.