779 réponses à ce sujet

[Vhalkyrie]

Shiran wrote...

spartan5127 wrote...

Shiran wrote...

Did y'all try to rip Javrik's head because his nation did same thing to Human and Asarins? (And probably Turians, Salarians etc) It's called guided evolution and it is done all the time. Transhumanism is ultimate goal of the Evolution.

Believing that evolution has a goal is a fundamentally flawed statement. 

Hence it's guided. See Krogan "uplifting" by Salarians. Human "uplifting" by Prothean. Read the novels from "Noon" Universe.

Oh and of course Evolution has the goal: The Survival.

I thought it was a throwback to David Brin "Uplift Wars".  All species who gained the ability to travel through space required a patron species to uplift them.  Except humanity was the only one to evolve to the stars without being uplifted.  Volus call humans "Earthclan", which is how they are referred to in David Brin's novels.

[Lmaoboat]

IronVanguard wrote...

How did they kill diversity?

They didn't turn everyone into Systhesis humans. They are still Turians, they're just part synthetic. Same for the quarians, and the Salarians, and the Asari.
And the Geth, though I guess they were made part organic. Or something.

Frankly the whole thing requires space magic to even work, but beyond that, Shepard hardly "destroyed" diversity. He did change the basis of life I guess, but eh.

If Humans are still Humans, and Turians are still Turians, then what the heck did Synthesis do? Vent kid said the that point of synthesis was to make sure synthetics would never destroy organics, but just making into cyborgs won't stop people from being able to create new fully synthetic beings that could grow too powerful. They only way to stop life being destroyed by some theoretical technological singularity would to, as he said, to achieve the final evolution of life, and make everyone into the singularity themselves. Given how much cultures have changed over human history, having all organic life instantly take an evolutionary step as larges as from the first vertebrates to modern humans wouldn't result in something conceivable to our unaltered minds, much less anything remotely resembling the people we've grown to know and love.

[tiger-tron]

Falconee wrote...

justafan wrote...

Honestly, I find Red to be the most beautiful. Shepard makes huge sacrifices in the hope that life will find a way to break the cycle. Green and Blue impose order from based on the will of an individual, either through synthesis or keeping the Reapers in reserve, but in destroy Shepard has no guarantees that the cycle will end and no way to stop it if it doesn't. He has blind faith in the species he has spent 3 games gathering together who are finally united under one banner will find a way to live in harmony on their own. Through destroy, Shepard gives the galaxy true freedom, freedom to live, freedom to make mistakes, and freedom to develop along the path they choose.

Yeah, and whiped out the Geth and EDI.

I would have taken this option into consideration without these shortcomings.

It was always going to be a difficult decision, but I think the needs of flesh and blood outweighs that of metal and wires.

Although I did feel sorry for the Geth and I loved the new EDI, but like I said...Shepard had no right to tamper with evolution and "play God". I believe Shepard knew the risks and expected the synthetics like EDI to understand the choice.

[Joolazoo]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

Furluge wrote...

I remember that bit with Saren, but I think there's a bit of a difference between Sovreign filling Saren with a bunch of implants and using Shepard as a basis for a new form of life. I mean we're talking DNA doesn't even exist in its current form after the synthesis ending.

Now I want to point out. I don't particularly like any of the endings, but yeah if I have to choose one, that's the one I go with.

Also as far as what it does... well they did say they still had no idea what the Crucible would actually do. I'm not terribly surprised that it can do something pretty much incomprehensible. (Because it is, there's just no way you can have a game set after that point because you'd spend all your time explaining, "How the %#@%! does that work?!")

Karrie788 wrote...

Honestly, PLEASE enlighten me. I fail to see what the synthesis ending accomplishes, and I fail to see it as "salvation".

Please. Explain.

(And I don't think any of us cares about Shepard living or dying at this point.)

Ok, I'm just going to run down my train of thought on this one. And note, your train of thought on this might be different, and that's ok, because again, they're all terrible endings. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for thinking something else.

A) Let's assume the ending is real. Because if it's really indoctrination or a dream, I don't want to get into it.. and honestly I don't think they would pull something that convoluted. (Though now that it's been suggested I don't put it past them saying, "Oh yeah we meant to do that.")

 Let's assume the Spacebaby is being honest. Why, because if it's not some weird dream, I don't see why it really needs to lie to you at point. And if it is lying, it's a terrible liar, and you think it'd do a better job in steering you toward a particular choice.

C) If choose Destory, the Spacebaby says it will destroy EDI and the Geth and won't actually solve anything. So I have to nix that off my list. I've spent my entire game treating the synthetics as life that deserves the same rights and considerations as anyone else. (I mean would you even consider this ending if it would kill say, all the Quarians and Turians because they're Dextro-amino acid based?) And if it's ultimately futile, that just makes it even worse.

D) If I choose Control Shepard's body is consumed and their will controls the reapers. Maybe I've red to much LOTR but I don't think Shepard's will, merged with the Reapers, is going to stay uncorrupted forever. Not to mention I've spent the entire game telling the Illusive Man it's a bad idea.

E) Which basically leaves me with Synthesis. Which is rather drastic, but it does, again according to the Spacebaby, solve the issue. How? **** if I know. But at the very least it changes everything, human, synthetic, Reaper. I don't have to worry about mad part-reaper shepard, or commiting genocide. As far as I can tell it eliminates their motives for attacking earth since they leave afterward.  Why does it stop people from new synthetics or organics that will destroy them later? **** if I know, I'd have actually know what exactly happens to answer that for you.

I hope you realize the geth are just 0 and 1's in a computer and to compare them to the turians or any other organic being is laughable...and makes no sense what so ever. Legion is nice, and seems to totally go against the geths single identity logic, but he's still just a machine...computing 0's and 1's.

I hope you realize that organic beings are just chemicals and neurons, and that contrasting them to 1's and 0's is a meaningless and narrow-minded distinction

It isn't at all. If you had any idea about the fact that unlike a MACHINE we have no idea what to reduce human thought too. If you honestly think humans are just chemicals and nuerons you either have no idea what you're talking about or you're purposely avoiding the fact that there is no possible way to tell exactly where a human thought is. 

[Shiran]

Joolazoo wrote...

It isn't at all. If you had any idea about the fact that unlike a MACHINE we have no idea what to reduce human thought too. If you honestly think humans are just chemicals and nuerons you either have no idea what you're talking about or you're purposely avoiding the fact that there is no possible way to tell exactly where a human thought is. 

Oh, ok. But you can tell what Geth thoughts are? Or even that they are all 1 and 0? What makes you think Quarians even use binary, hmm?

Yes, sorry to break it to you but all those comlex thought twirling in your head are just a bunch of chemical processes. neurons firing. The only principal distinction between "organics" and "syntetics" is that one are "evolved" (with no specific purpose, other than the one given by Evolution, and others are "created"

That actually stated in game in coversations between Javrik, EDI, Legion, Tali, Admiral That-Almost-But-Not-Quite-Got-Punched-In-The-Face and possibly some others.

[IronVanguard]

Lmaoboat wrote...

IronVanguard wrote...

How did they kill diversity?

They didn't turn everyone into Systhesis humans. They are still Turians, they're just part synthetic. Same for the quarians, and the Salarians, and the Asari.
And the Geth, though I guess they were made part organic. Or something.

Frankly the whole thing requires space magic to even work, but beyond that, Shepard hardly "destroyed" diversity. He did change the basis of life I guess, but eh.

If Humans are still Humans, and Turians are still Turians, then what the heck did Synthesis do? Vent kid said the that point of synthesis was to make sure synthetics would never destroy organics, but just making into cyborgs won't stop people from being able to create new fully synthetic beings that could grow too powerful. They only way to stop life being destroyed by some theoretical technological singularity would to, as he said, to achieve the final evolution of life, and make everyone into the singularity themselves. Given how much cultures have changed over human history, having all organic life instantly take an evolutionary step as larges as from the first vertebrates to modern humans wouldn't result in something conceivable to our unaltered minds, much less anything remotely resembling the people we've grown to know and love.

On the other hand, its space magic, and since we have no information to the contrary, the green just changed their DNA and made them hybrids of themselves and some tech stuff.
You know, glowing eyes, lines in the skin, probably cool cyborg powers we'll never get to see.

[Fliprot]

Megachaz wrote...

I thought the synthesis option was pure evil. You just essentially altered the intrinsic nature of every living being. You took away the free will of every being in the galaxy.

This.

[Rehwyn]

First, I wanted to say that I have many issues with how the ending(s) of ME3 were handled, but most have been summarized before and stated rather poignantly in the GameFront article linked earlier in this thread (http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/).

Just for reference, I chose Synthesis based off a Shep with pretty much a "perfect" paragon playthrough of ME1-ME3. I've seen the other endings now and feel the Synthesis option is the "best" in terms of fitting with the themes of ME. If it had been executed well, the overall artistic vision of the Synthesis ending could have been great (in my opinion), but like all the others it is seriously plagued by plot problems, a lack of development to put the decision and result of the in a context that fits the themes of ME, and a limited and somewhat unfulfilling resolution. I saw the announcement about the April DLC, but I seriously hope they can give ME3 the quality of ending it deserves.

That being said, I would like to chime in on one topic people complain about that I have a differing opinion on: the claim that choosing the Synthesis option makes everyone homogeneous, ruining the themes of tolerance and unity.

One of the major themes and questions addressed in the series is "what makes someone a person or sentient life?". Through uniting all the races, even the Geth, and discussions with EDI, one conclusion Shep can make is that what truly defines us as sentient life and "person" is our thoughts, our dreams, our hopes, our values, and our interactions with others. While the biological and chemical components that make us up might define "what" we are and the physical form we possess, they do not define "who" we are. By choosing the Synthesis option, you are only altering the building-blocks on which all life is physically based, not the personality, aspirations, or social attachments that person has. Unless, of course, you believe that DNA completely defines who a person is at all stages of their life, at which point the whole concept of free will and cultural tolerance is moot.

Moreover, organic life has been made up of the same fundamental DNA building-blocks prior to this whole conflict, yet I doubt anyone would argue that humans, Krogans, or even mosquitoes are homogeneous by any measure. Not even members of the same species, such as humans, are considered the same as one another, despite the fact that present studies indicate two unrelated humans only differ on average by around 0.1%-0.5% on a genetic level (depending on the measure of variance used). And yet, human history is filled with example after example of people justifying subjugation and violence against others based on such minuscule differences in our DNA. If the basis of genetics had suddenly changed from deoxyribose to some other compound far in the past, yet people still looked different, do you honestly think people would have gone "oh hey, we're all the same now, I guess we don't need to oppress you after all and should live in harmony"? I think not. No matter the similarities between people (like maybe new synthetic-ish glowing eyes), as long as there are differences in appearance, culture, values, goals, or dreams, people can use them to justify intolerance, unless people intentionally attempts to seek unity and understanding.

Does choosing Synthesis suddenly make everyone appear identical? Does everyone suddenly shift to the same culture, think the same thoughts, or value the same ideals? There is admittedly not much footage in the ending (something I dislike), but I see no reason to draw this conclusion. Even if the genetic basis for life has been changed (and it is true that the physical basis for organic and synthetic life has been made less diverse since they now share a mixed basis instead of two distinct bases; DNA and... code?), there isn't any significant decrease in the diversity of the aspects of a person that matter when people interact with each other or that define who a person is.

Do not get me wrong, I do not think it is a perfect ending by any means. But I do feel people are wrong when they say the Synthesis ending removes free will or diversity and is therefore "evil". Do I think it is unfortunate that the situation set up forced you to make this decision without the consent of all life? Absolutely.  But Shepard was faced with a decision that could not be delayed (you think the Reapers would have let Shepard go ask all life for permission and not destroyed the Crucible or kept killing?). It does bother me a little that Shepard did not try to find another option before accepting the Guardian's choices, but considering the other two options presented you with a choice to either commit genocide or enslavement of all synthetic life (a form of life that, on the basis of thought, hope, and free will a paragon Shep could reasonable determine is not that different from organic life), including some new allies (Geth) and EDI (a friend and lover of another good friend), it is definitely the option that best represents a "good" moral viewpoint. 

Edit: Yes, I'd like to reiterate that I realize there are still tons of plot holes with the ending. Like... how exactly this solution solves the problem the Reapers were supposedly created to prevent in the first place. There simply wasn't enough information provided about the effects of this merging. As I said, if it was actually executed well, it could have worked well. Alas...

Modifié par Rehwyn, 23 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[noobcannon]

IsaacShep wrote...

Forgetting about all the plotholes why did the Normandy ended up on the jungle planet, I'm REALLY liking the synthesis ending. it requires Shep to sacrifice himself completely (in control ending it's just the body), yet seeing EDI and Joker smile and how life got trasformed was just beautiful.

i like it because it doesn't make any sense and thinking hurts my brain.

/trolololol

Modifié par noobcannon, 23 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[randalbattalis]

Hey man Joker's hat becoming a living cyborg was pretty sweet you guys.

I speculated with all my friends lots on the future adventures of cyber hat.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

It's not meant to be seen as doom of mankind it's suppose to be the "Next step in evolution a way against the reapers. If you're one with synthetics there's no more need to create synthetics thus the war stops. The idea was to have the compassion and culture of an organic with a sense of logic from a synthetic and their abilities (i'm assuming) they're cyborgs human thoughts synthetic parts. Similar to Shepard the evolution was meant to be symbiotic not parasitic.

[Gibb_Shepard]

If you can get past how much sense Synthesis doesn't make, and how illogical the whole thing is in the context of the choices, then sure; i guess giving trees a CPU and guns genitals could be seen as beautiful.

[noobcannon]

randalbattalis wrote...

Hey man Joker's hat becoming a living cyborg was pretty sweet you guys.

I speculated with all my friends lots on the future adventures of cyber hat.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can get past how much sense Synthesis doesn't make, and how illogical the whole thing is in the context of the choices, then sure; i guess giving trees a CPU and guns genitals could be seen as beautiful.

 

^this

i still think it's funny there are people actually defending the synthesis ending. it is the most incomprehensible thing ever concieved, unless you believe in space magic, except space magic actually makes sense compared to this garbage.

Modifié par noobcannon, 23 mars 2012 - 03:07 .

[TheTrueObelus]

The synthesis ending doesnt fix anything. Think about it. Do wars suddenly end because organics are merged with synthetics? The geth fought against the Reapers!

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Oh don't get me wrong I still think the ending is god awful. It doesn't go with the feel of the story it's rushed abrupt and confusing to a lot of people. But I do understand what the point was and what they were trying to do. They just did it too rushed they needed to give it more time. I honestly think they just were so rushed to finish such an amazing game they kinda just pushed the ending aside thinking "well if the game is amazing no one will mind the ending" ...if that is the case I don't know what in Geths' name they were thinking.

[Vhalkyrie]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can get past how much sense Synthesis doesn't make, and how illogical the whole thing is in the context of the choices, then sure; i guess giving trees a CPU and guns genitals could be seen as beautiful.

O.O

Bwhahaha!

Synthesis is the ending that made me cringe the most.  When the Normandy crash landed and there were circuits on the leaves, my reaction was complete disgust.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[mikelope]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

The synthesis ending doesnt fix anything. Think about it. Do wars suddenly end because organics are merged with synthetics? The geth fought against the Reapers!

It doesn't have to solve everything but it does solve the organic-synthetic problem which is supposedly the main problem, said the kid. It was terribly implemented and construed but I think it is a valid option and solution if done well.

[noobcannon]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can get past how much sense Synthesis doesn't make, and how illogical the whole thing is in the context of the choices, then sure; i guess giving trees a CPU and guns genitals could be seen as beautiful.

O.O

Bwhahaha!

Synthesis is the ending that made me cringe the most.  When the Normandy crash landed and there were circuits on the leaves, my reaction was complete disgust.

actually if you think about how leaves use photosynthesis, and combine that with the theory of......

j/k

seriously though, the synthesis ending is a blessing in disguise. the other two endings were awful but the synthesis one got me scratching my head and thinking "something else is going on here".  i then proceeded to jump on the indoctrination theory bandwagon.

Modifié par noobcannon, 23 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

mikelope wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

The synthesis ending doesnt fix anything. Think about it. Do wars suddenly end because organics are merged with synthetics? The geth fought against the Reapers!

It doesn't have to solve everything but it does solve the organic-synthetic problem which is supposedly the main problem, said the kid. It was terribly implemented and construed but I think it is a valid option and solution if done well.

No it doesn't. These cyborgs will eventually create AI again. There is nothing stopping them from doing this. There is also nothing stopping the AI from rebelling.

This is the biggest issue with Synthesis. It actually DOESN"T solve anything, so the choice is absolutely useless.

[LegatoSkyheart]

I didn't quite like it because of Shepard's Final Thoughts.
I mean it started out good, Joker, then Anderson, then Liara....I was thinking ok he's thinking of all of his friends.
BUT NO, it stopped right there with Liara. SERIOUSLY I thought I had made it clear that she was just a really good friend with my Shepard. Why didn't my Shepard think of, oh I don't know.....His Love Interest, Tali?

Also doesn't help that I pulled a Neo on that ending.

[Rehwyn]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If you can get past how much sense Synthesis doesn't make, and how illogical the whole thing is in the context of the choices, then sure; i guess giving trees a CPU and guns genitals could be seen as beautiful.

As funny as the concept is, I doubt guns suddenly are all organic. It was synthetic life that was changed, so unless you gun was a full AI...

And yes, the whole organic and synthetic mishmash on a genetic level doesn't really make sense in reality. They were obviously going for a whole new form of life distinct from organic or synthetic by merging them to the most fundamental level, which is different from a cyborg or husk-type thing which is an imperfect combination of components from each. Unfortunately, BW didn't really make an effort to explain how it worked so we could believe it (unlike mass effect fields and many other sci-fi things explained in the series), and we don't have AI, much less a synthetic analog to DNA, in our own reality to relate it to. That certainly makes it hard to suspend my disbelief.

If the Synthesis ending was presented as a solution to a problem it actually solved (without some creative fan reasoning) and it at least explained how it solved the problem, it'd be a lot better. Even still, if you somehow accept that it solved the Reaper problem it's a better ending than the other two, in my opinion.

On a side note, one of the major plot problems that I disliked regarding the blown up Mass Relays (the general screwed nature of many people stranded on random planets) could have been best resolved in the Sythesis ending. If BW had wanted to they could have solved a lot of that by saying:

"Oh hey, everyone has gotten some of the best parts of both organics and synthetics. Former organics no longer need to breath oxygen (or whatever) or eat food and don't age normally, so people have lots of opportunity to rebuild without the crushing burden of getting basic survival necessities. But since they're part organic on a level, they certainly can enjoy good food etc if they choose to."

There. I fixed it some.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 23 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[Quietness]

I felt like i should roll dice to pick my warcrime....

[mikelope]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

mikelope wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

The synthesis ending doesnt fix anything. Think about it. Do wars suddenly end because organics are merged with synthetics? The geth fought against the Reapers!

It doesn't have to solve everything but it does solve the organic-synthetic problem which is supposedly the main problem, said the kid. It was terribly implemented and construed but I think it is a valid option and solution if done well.

No it doesn't. These cyborgs will eventually create AI again. There is nothing stopping them from doing this. There is also nothing stopping the AI from rebelling.

This is the biggest issue with Synthesis. It actually DOESN"T solve anything, so the choice is absolutely useless.

Doesn't this happen in any ending you can think of. And aren't you extrapolating too far into the future. Who knows what 'cyborg'-ai conflict would entail. For the ME trilogy, synthesis solves the current problem. If it wasn't such a cop-out and if it was explained well, this would have been fine for me.

[Deepo78]

 
Synthesis is pretty much the dumbest choice to me, yet the Star Kid insists it's the only way for Synthetics and Organics to co-exist they need to be fused on a genetic level.

A) It's a contradiction. If most of us went and made peace between the Geth and Quarians in our game then it blows a pretty big hole in Glowy's assertion.  Why Shepard doesn't bring this up to Holographic Short Round is well...really, really odd.

It's not technologically sound.  As crazy adavanced as the tech in ME3 is portrayed, there is alot of room for suspension of disbelief, yet the idea of the artificial life in the Mass Effect universe having some kind of analogue for DNA is never explained, presented or brought up at any point. Although the Reaper's are somehow comprised of the processed remains of formerly living creatures, other mechanical beings such as the Geth and EDI are clearly not. The closest analogue to DNA in the realm of science fiction would probably be nano-tech and would only apply if the Geth and EDI were completely comprised of microscopic, self replecating nano-machines, the same a living creature is comprised of cells. However despite the fact that these characters are self-aware and fairly advanced in their bodily construction, they are far the most part conventional robots built out of standard, interchangable components. If the Synthesis wave were to work, it would have to change them on a completely molecular level. Essentially rebuilding all Geth and EDI instantly on the spot as oppose to organics where they would just be introducing as a new component into their DNA, via an explosive wave of radiation.  If this isn't Space Magic, I don't know what is.

C) It goes against the core theme of the series: Different groups uniting to overcome their differences and finding themselves better for the journey.  Remember all that time you spent uniting all these feuding races,  groups and artifical beings to unite for the common good, all the lives lost, the sacrifices made to achieve them. Turns out you could've just waved a magic want and made everybody the same, like a Wizard Space Facist.  Not only have you taken away their genetic individuality without their consent to appease a circular logic employing holographic child, but you've shoehorned your DNA into every living and mechanical thing in the galaxy. Remember that fertility doctor in the 90's who was secrety knocking up all of his patients with his own DNA just for kicks? Congratulations, Shepard is now the space version of that guy.

Modifié par Deepo78, 23 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[UndeadTRex]

Synthesis made no sense scientifically and made everything the same. It took away diversity. I feel that's just as evil as killing all the synthetics. Besides, what's going to stop them from building new synthetics that haven't been combined with organic DNA? What, did the green magic give every piece of metal DNA so they can't do that? Do I have to worry about catching a cold from my spoon?