779 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

John Locke N7 wrote...

So was the end of the LOTR movies....

but at the end of those frodo goes to a magical land of never dying with elves. It fits into that story.

Mass Effect is grounded is scientific reality, not fantasy

In the books, it's explained more: he will still die.  He's just going there as a respite before death, because what the One Ring had done to him had made life in the mortal lands almost unbearable, and it was only going to get worse for him the longer he remained. By going to where the elves lived, he'd get some measure of peace for the rest of the time that remained to him.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Saren's vision wasn't evil. He was just indoctrinated to believe the Reapers would realize it instead of enslaving him. The Reapers use people's ideals and twist them to serve their purposes - see TIM. That doesn't make the ideas themselves evil.

Except Saren's ideal WAS A REAPER IDEAL.
Saren had no such delusions about evolution before Sovereign started messing with his head. All he wanted was Turian supremacy, to put humans in their place and to be safe from the Reapers.

Evidence? I don't recall seeing much of this Saren. Besides, the source of an idea has no bearing on its moral value.

[Ieldra]

suusuuu wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

suusuuu wrote...

Catalyst: "Synthesis is the final evolution of life"
Life exists to evolve, to progress. That is its goal and purpose. If it reaches its final form, it loses its meaning. You just robbed the entire galaxy out of meaning and purpose. 

Also, you know, evolution doesn't work that way.  It doesn't have some end goal.

Did you somehow miss the word "final?" I am not basing this on any actual knowledge of my own but on the information provided and common sense. If something is final it means it is finished therefore it does not change over time. 

That's bad writing. As long as there's life, there's change. If change stops, so stops life. I think they wanted to invoke some utopian ideal with this ending, but never realized that such a state of being must be dynamic or it doesn't deserve the term.

[BurtieBee]

frudi wrote...

Initially I chose the Synthesis ending too. It seemed like the ending that would best fit a paragon Shepard.

But, once I was no longer under the emotional impact of the ending and I had some time to rationally analyze it, I came to the conclusion that the Synthesis choice is actually the worst of the three. Maybe it turned out ok (or not, we can't really tell yet), but there's no way in hell any Shepard (paragon or renegade) would willingly select this option.
Think about it from Shepard's point of view; (s)he's run into a lot of organic-synthetic hybrid creatures before - husks, collectors, banshees, brutes, canibals, etc. - all of them grotesque abominations created by the Reapers. And now a Reaper kid/AI/VI (or at least something closely related to the Reapers - remember, it keeps referring to Reapers as 'us' and 'we') is offering to turn every organic and synthetic creature in the galaxy into hybirds? No way would this seem like a good idea to Shepard.

This is what I came here to say.  We can feel safe to choose it (ethical dilemma aside) because we get to see the end result.  But in the moment, Shepard's being asked to trust in the vision of a "perfect evolution" by a Reaper child...thing.

Almost no information is given. I had a million questions when that option came up, but of course the stupid thing had disappeared. I can't imagine a Shepard who had worked so hard and sacrificed so much for humanity would just willingly give in to something like that, to become something that, at least on paper, sounds less than human.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Saren's vision wasn't evil. He was just indoctrinated to believe the Reapers would realize it instead of enslaving him. The Reapers use people's ideals and twist them to serve their purposes - see TIM. That doesn't make the ideas themselves evil.

Except Saren's ideal WAS A REAPER IDEAL.
Saren had no such delusions about evolution before Sovereign started messing with his head. All he wanted was Turian supremacy, to put humans in their place and to be safe from the Reapers.

Evidence? I don't recall seeing much of this Saren.

I don't recall Saren in the prequel book going on about this. He was always a tosser, but his goals were decidedly different.

Besides, the source of an idea has no bearing on its moral value.

In this case, it does. The Reaper god has determined that all life must become like them and Shepard does their bidding.
What are the long term effects?
What right does Shepard have to impose this on trillions of beings?
What's to stop Reapers from inserting Reaper code into all the hybrids at some point?
How does this prevent the idiotic claim of the inevitability of technological singularity?

[Nefelius]

BurtieBee wrote...

frudi wrote...

Initially I chose the Synthesis ending too. It seemed like the ending that would best fit a paragon Shepard.

But, once I was no longer under the emotional impact of the ending and I had some time to rationally analyze it, I came to the conclusion that the Synthesis choice is actually the worst of the three. Maybe it turned out ok (or not, we can't really tell yet), but there's no way in hell any Shepard (paragon or renegade) would willingly select this option.
Think about it from Shepard's point of view; (s)he's run into a lot of organic-synthetic hybrid creatures before - husks, collectors, banshees, brutes, canibals, etc. - all of them grotesque abominations created by the Reapers. And now a Reaper kid/AI/VI (or at least something closely related to the Reapers - remember, it keeps referring to Reapers as 'us' and 'we') is offering to turn every organic and synthetic creature in the galaxy into hybirds? No way would this seem like a good idea to Shepard.

This is what I came here to say.  We can feel safe to choose it (ethical dilemma aside) because we get to see the end result.  But in the moment, Shepard's being asked to trust in the vision of a "perfect evolution" by a Reaper child...thing.

Almost no information is given. I had a million questions when that option came up, but of course the stupid thing had disappeared. I can't imagine a Shepard who had worked so hard and sacrificed so much for humanity would just willingly give in to something like that, to become something that, at least on paper, sounds less than human.

To top of it there's just no logical explanation why the hybrids won't still build more synthetics to ease their life.
Which, by the wizard's logic, leads only to destruction of everything.

[Ieldra]

Rom22 wrote...
but isn't synthesis the whole point of the Reapers? Harvesting organics to create hybrid organic/synthetic space cthulhus?

No. Watch the ending sequence. Did Joker and EDI turn into space cthulhus? Did they lose their individuality, were the assimilated by a Borg-like hive mind? There is no evidence of that. People who think that are making it up.

People assume that because the Reapers are organic/synthetic hybrids, all such life must be like the Reapers. That's a fallacy, as if saying since bacteria are organic, all organic life must be like bacteria.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[HKR148]

Regardless, do you think the synthesis ending would be problematic if this was chosen as a true canon for the next ME series? lol I just can't see them using that ending as a basis for anything in future and would be able to make a decent game.

[John Locke N7]

Also the ending completely contradicts the entire genophage plot

[CRISIS1717]

I found the synthesis ending to be pretty lacklustre.

So who made the catalyst in the first place? what happened to everyone after? where was the heroic finale?

[John Locke N7]

didymos1120 wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

So was the end of the LOTR movies....

but at the end of those frodo goes to a magical land of never dying with elves. It fits into that story.

Mass Effect is grounded is scientific reality, not fantasy

In the books, it's explained more: he will still die.  He's just going there as a respite before death, because what the One Ring had done to him had made life in the mortal lands almost unbearable, and it was only going to get worse for him the longer he remained. By going to where the elves lived, he'd get some measure of peace for the rest of the time that remained to him.

i know it ends in the books, im talking about the movies.... its alot less dark in the movies

[Tallestra]

Well, most of the conflicts in our world stem from differences nationality, religion, even sex. So here perfect solution - someone turns us into a unisex same race, following same hybrid religion. Problem solved. If you want to leave in this state - fine, I don't.

Modifié par Tallestra, 13 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rom22 wrote...
but isn't synthesis the whole point of the Reapers? Harvesting organics to create hybrid organic/synthetic space cthulhus?

No. Watch the ending sequence. Did Joker and EDI turn into space cthulhus? Did they lose their individuality, were the assimilated by a Borg-like hive mind? There is no evidence of that. People who think that are making it up.

People assume that because the Reapers are organic/synthetic hybrids, all such life must be like the Reapers. That's a fallacy, as if saying since bacteria are organic, all organic life must be like bacteria.

We actually have no idea what effect it had on anyone. None of it was explained.

[DieHigh2012]

John Locke N7 wrote...

So was the end of the LOTR movies....

but at the end of those frodo goes to a magical land of never dying with elves. It fits into that story.

Mass Effect is grounded is scientific reality, not fantasy

Biotics, FTL travel, and Mass relays...........that's sure some real science right there....

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 13 mars 2012 - 10:03 .

[ticklefist]

Let me preface by saying I don't find any of these endings satisfying. Still, they are what they are and they're not going away. Every single ending has its own positives and negatives.

Green creates what will be a peaceful end of the cycle for all time. It is both the most virtuous and most selfless. You save everybody at the cost of your own life but you destroy the mass relays in the process.

Blue is the middle road. You develop a peace of sorts. You save the Citadel and mass relays (watch the vids) but you're no better than TIM. You do not die, but you do not carry on living. While seemingly good, not entirely selfless.

Red is the seemingly right choice. Using Anderson as the avatar of this choice is a deception. It's actually the worst and most selfish. You only end the current cycle. You kill all synthetic life including allies and friends. You destroy the mass relays. You live.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rom22 wrote...
but isn't synthesis the whole point of the Reapers? Harvesting organics to create hybrid organic/synthetic space cthulhus?

No. Watch the ending sequence. Did Joker and EDI turn into space cthulhus? Did they lose their individuality, were the assimilated by a Borg-like hive mind? There is no evidence of that. People who think that are making it up.

People assume that because the Reapers are organic/synthetic hybrids, all such life must be like the Reapers. That's a fallacy, as if saying since bacteria are organic, all organic life must be like bacteria.

All reaper-minions are exactly the same type of organic-machine hybrid.
The only difference is Joker et all aren't indoctrinated. Yet.

[Furluge]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah, the explanation makes no sense at all. I wonder why they changed it from the leaked script. There it was "You will become more like us, and we will become more like you." Implying a process where both kinds of life acquire desirable traits from the other. Much more vague, but you can use your imagination to make sense of it.

Where is that in the leaked script? I definitely couldn't find it. :/

[Drenick18]

hm.. personally I thought the synthesis ending was a betrayal of everything paragon Shep stood for. I mean, It's nice seeing Joker and EDI getting a chance at it but yeh, as someone else has said, you just changed everybody without their consent.

I don't buy aything the catalyst god-child deus ex machina says, it can't say that synthetics and organics are bound to end up killing each other in the future, the friendship between Tali and Shep and Legion (and EDI) kinda disproves that. the catalyst himself says that he's not sure but that it's "bound to happen" or something to that effect.

IMO Killing the reapers is the correct choice because it doesn't betray everything I stood for, the reapers are wrong, and I have faith that synthetics and organics can get along (I mean, it's what my Shep has been doing ever since 1 and 2). Only problem is the Catalyst insists that picking the destroy Reapers option kills ALL synthetics, which is a bummer. I don't want to kill the geth and EDI but I don't want to betray the friendship we developed so.... the Synthesis ending is "the best" ending only because it doesn't involve killing either synthetics or organics.

I dunno. It's arguably the best ending but I just don't buy it, it's kind of.. too easy, or too convenient. It just came out of nowhere IMO and I don't like it. it's a Lie, IMO.

edit: grammar. and missing words.

Modifié par Drenick18, 13 mars 2012 - 10:08 .

[ticklefist]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

So was the end of the LOTR movies....

but at the end of those frodo goes to a magical land of never dying with elves. It fits into that story.

Mass Effect is grounded is scientific reality, not fantasy

Biotics, FTL travel, and Mass relays...........that's sure some real sience right there....

Maybe he didn't pick the best word when he said "reality." I'll help. He meant scientific plausibility.

[The Angry One]

ticklefist wrote...
Green creates what will be a peaceful end of the cycle for all time. It is both the most virtuous and most selfless. You save everybody at the cost of your own life but you destroy the mass relays in the process.

It does not end the cycle.
The only proof we have that it ends the cycle is because the Catalyst says so, however the Catalyst is a moron.

[Ieldra]

Tallestra wrote...
Well, most of the conflicts in our world stem from differences nationality, religion, even sex. So here perfect solution - someone turns us into a unisex same race, following same hybrid religion. Problem solved. If you want to leave in this state - fine, I don't.

That is not implied. That's something *you* add.

Also remember that Shepard's a hero. All endings make the Reapers leave, even if you choose Control you don't have the option of letting them do their job. I.e. all endings are supposed to be good. Which is the best might be debatable, but all result in more good than bad from a certain perspective. 

[HKR148]

The Angry One wrote...

ticklefist wrote...
Green creates what will be a peaceful end of the cycle for all time. It is both the most virtuous and most selfless. You save everybody at the cost of your own life but you destroy the mass relays in the process.

It does not end the cycle.
The only proof we have that it ends the cycle is because the Catalyst says so, however the Catalyst is a moron.

yeap.. reapers are now without a controller, what gaurantees them from not doing "we still hate those ants down-below let's just finish them off" move.

[Ieldra]

Furluge wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah, the explanation makes no sense at all. I wonder why they changed it from the leaked script. There it was "You will become more like us, and we will become more like you." Implying a process where both kinds of life acquire desirable traits from the other. Much more vague, but you can use your imagination to make sense of it.

Where is that in the leaked script? I definitely couldn't find it. :/

BioGame_INT.xml, tag #89996:

"We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us."

[Furluge]

The Angry One wrote...

All reaper-minions are exactly the same type of organic-machine hybrid.
The only difference is Joker et all aren't indoctrinated. Yet.

Except they're not. Reapears are made by either filling people with implants and nanomachines, or turning them into sludge and using them for materials to make your reaper megalith out of. In the synthesis ending you change everything at a smaller, fundamental level. Hell even the Reapers old methods for creating more of their kind might not even work anymore because the fundamental building blocks of /everything/ got changed.

How do they work now? **** if I know, and we'll probably never ever get an explanation, because you could probably write an entire book just about /that/.

[DieHigh2012]

ticklefist wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

So was the end of the LOTR movies....

but at the end of those frodo goes to a magical land of never dying with elves. It fits into that story.

Mass Effect is grounded is scientific reality, not fantasy

Biotics, FTL travel, and Mass relays...........that's sure some real sience right there....

Maybe he didn't pick the best word when he said "reality." I'll help. He meant scientific plausibility.

Come on now anything is scientificly plausible, even unicorns. Some time in the future I'm sure they will be able to aline the right genetic markers and make one.

But that is niether here nor there, hard science is not about wild speculation. It's why I laugh everytime I hear the big bang theory.