779 réponses à ce sujet

[asilarae]

Furluge wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

This isn't even remotely pretending to be scientific. This is pure magic.

If the game actually did it's job and explained anything satisfactorily we wouldn't be here complaining about the ending.

I was in the middle of writing another pedantic thing when you said in one sentence what I was taking a paragraph to flesh out.  

Who knows what the best ending is?  WE'RE NEVER SHOWN ANY OF THE OUTCOMES TO ANY OF THEM, AIEEEEEEEE

[The Angry One]

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

So.. the Reapers couldn't build the Crucible by themselves? They built everything else and they couldn't build that? Balony.

[jerms510]

TobiTobsen wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...


If the creator of the Reapers tells me A, I will always do B, you can believe that.

Enjoy your ad hominem? offhand dismissal on account of the source is irresponsible.

And what makes you so sure that the Reaper Kid is telling you the truth?
If you point a weapon at me I'm pretty sure that I will make any option besides shooting me look more attractive for you.

because there is nothing to suggest the catalyst is being anything but sincere, and thus in order to claim deceit on its part you must break the fourth wall?

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Furluge wrote...
Actually I'm pretty sure half the point of that ending is that... no, EDI isn't actually a machine anymore. And yes, that's going to stick everyone's craw in this because it's asking us to believe in a new framework for life that doesn't exist anywhere.

So why does she still look like a machine with green bits?
And how the hell does this green space ray change their brains? EDI does not have a human brain or an approximation of it, she is a droid. It doesn't even follow that her "brain" is going to be in her head, not to mention that she still shares processes with the Normandy.
I don't care if you have magically fused organic matter with whatever she's made of, she is still DIFFERENT to hybrids like Joker.

This isn't even remotely pretending to be scientific. This is pure magic.

Unfortunately, yes. But that doesn't prevent me from going along with the theme. Just watch the sequence. It is the option that makes peace, and if you watch Shepard go, you'll see that he's at peace with this being the end of the road for him. It's a messianic sacrifice, how can the result be anything but good? I don't really like that they pushed this element up to eleven in ME3, but it's so well-presented that I can go along with it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 mars 2012 - 10:41 .

[Barquiel]

I find Synthesis disgusting...and it solves nothing (if this idiotic "synthetics killing everyone" theory is even right). Who stops the hybrids from creating new synthetics (...and the synthetics will then rise up and destroy the hybrids)?

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[jerms510]

The Angry One wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

So.. the Reapers couldn't build the Crucible by themselves? They built everything else and they couldn't build that? Balony.

The Reapers were, until that point, an effective solution in the eyes of the Catalyst/godchild. Why explore other options when the one you're already using is working just fine?

[Tony208]

jerms510 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...


If the creator of the Reapers tells me A, I will always do B, you can believe that.

Enjoy your ad hominem? offhand dismissal on account of the source is irresponsible.

And what makes you so sure that the Reaper Kid is telling you the truth?
If you point a weapon at me I'm pretty sure that I will make any option besides shooting me look more attractive for you.

because there is nothing to suggest the catalyst is being anything but sincere, and thus in order to claim deceit on its part you must break the fourth wall?

You mean despite the fact it's already killed trillions and indoctrinates people to do it's bidding, it's still sincere?

Modifié par Tony208, 13 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[goofyomnivore]

It is the option that makes permanent peace

It doesn't make any more 'permanent peace' than Destroy does.

[Icinix]

Barquiel wrote...

I find Synthesis disgusting...and it solves nothing (if this idiotic "synthetics killing everyone" theory is even right). Who stops the hybrids to create new synthetics (...and the synthetics will then rise up and destroy the hybrids)?

This too. Has organic life suddenly gained the computing power of all synthetic life? Or Synthetic lose all their advantages?

Even the Geth when kept seperate begun conducting spy missions on the other - So whats to say a synthetic war wouldn't cause the same singularity.

[Ieldra]

strive wrote...

It is the option that makes permanent peace

It doesn't make any more 'permanent peace' than Destroy does.

All right, I take your point. But it removes the conflict that would result in organics' extinction.

[Evil_medved]

After brief scene with Joker smiling, we hear Harby's voice: "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" and joker eyes starts to glow yellow.

You get it? Reapers are now unemployed super-robots in world where everybody is half-robots.
So everydoy live, but as their slave.

Even the trees.

[HKR148]

strive wrote...

It is the option that makes permanent peace

It doesn't make any more 'permanent peace' than Destroy does.

As I've suggested previously, better option is to unload pistol on the vent-boy til you are bored, turn off xbox and pretend that Shepard turned into a baddass and kicked the reaper's ass while chewing some bubblegum. Less mental stress and more badass.

[Furluge]

asilarae wrote...
In fact, as has been pointed out before, Joker continues to limp--meaning we cannot state with any certainty that being a combination of synthetic and organic provides any positive traits.

I was bothered by that too. Then I remembered that all the endings are basically color paint jobs with color swaps and then it didn't bother me any more. With how crappy these endings are you think they'd think of something that subtle as fixing his limp? Assuming the magic green space ray fixes Vrolik syndrome, which hell, we don't know, because again they don't explain anything. So I'll take my one remotely positive change where I can get it.

jb1983 wrote...

The problem with the synthesis ending, no matter your views on it, is that in 30 seconds it nullifies hundreds of hours of gameplay and the entire reason for the Reapers existing.

If synthesis is the solution to the problem between organics and synthetics, then why didn't the Reapers just offer that millions of years ago, or force it upon someone? Why not give an early organic synthetic upgrades and, boom, problem solved?

To answer your this question, I don't think they had the capabilities to do that before. The Crucubile makes it possible. As for if it's the same as Saren, I'm inclined to say no. It's implined we're talking about a change on a deeper level than even what the Reapers have been doing. Is it the "right" answer? I thought so, but as someone pointed out, it's all incredibly subjective.

[VinWizzy]

turian_rage wrote...

For me, the synthesis ending was mearly a "what if" scenario. There was no way it could have been canon in my book, so it was cool seeing what happened. The problem with that was that the other 2 endings were very similar, minus the green stuff.

Except there is no canon or non canon at this point of the game. It your choice to decide the fate of the galaxy and end your Shepard's story. Now it wasn't done right imo but I would rather go on about it in another thread.

[John Locke N7]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

And there is no manipulation of dark matter the way biotics do in non video game reality.

i dont think you get what i said.

Mana is a gameplay mechanic, it exists in games for that purpose.

im talking about fantasy literature, and its related because this is a story arc ending not a gameplay end

[TobiTobsen]

jerms510 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...


If the creator of the Reapers tells me A, I will always do B, you can believe that.

Enjoy your ad hominem? offhand dismissal on account of the source is irresponsible.

And what makes you so sure that the Reaper Kid is telling you the truth?
If you point a weapon at me I'm pretty sure that I will make any option besides shooting me look more attractive for you.

because there is nothing to suggest the catalyst is being anything but sincere, and thus in order to claim deceit on its part you must break the fourth wall?

I'm not really putting my faith in the logic of a being that created synthetics to kill organics before the organics create synthetics and get killed by them.

And he is still a Reaper. Wasn't exactly healthy for Saren, or anybody else, to listen to their ideas.

[jb1983]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

ticklefist wrote...

Let me preface by saying I don't find any of these endings satisfying. Still, they are what they are and they're not going away. Every single ending has its own positives and negatives.

Green creates what will be a peaceful end of the cycle for all time. It is both the most virtuous and most selfless. You save everybody at the cost of your own life but you destroy the mass relays in the process.

Blue is the middle road. You develop a peace of sorts. You save the Citadel and mass relays (watch the vids) but you're no better than TIM. You do not die, but you do not carry on living. While seemingly good, not entirely selfless.

Red is the seemingly right choice. Using Anderson as the avatar of this choice is a deception. It's actually the worst and most selfish. You only end the current cycle. You kill all synthetic life including allies and friends. You destroy the mass relays. You live.

holy crap, someone gets it!

Indeed. How could I have overlooked this excellent summary.

Because it's an oversimplistic view? 

The truth is there isn't a "good" choice or a "virtuous" choice. With Green, you're forcing a change upon everyone's genetic structure, whether they want it or not. In other words, you're nullifying everyone's free will and doing exactly what the Reapers have been attempting for god-child knows how long. It's forced eugenics on a massive scale. 

With blue, you're merely holding back the Reapers, hoping you can control them, thus going back on your word to actually destroy them. There is no promise that you can actually control them forever, just that you can stop them for now. 

With red you're destroying not only your allies, but countless civilizations. Lest we forget, the collective memories and personalities are stored within the Reapers. By destroying a Reaper, you're essentially destroying an entire civilization and all the knowledge that came with it. 

In other words, none of the endings are "good." All of them are evil, with blue possibly being the least evil (unless you're a consequentialist, but who wants to be that?). 

Of course, none of this matters when it's realized that the green choice contradicts the entire reason for the Reapers existing. Blue and Red are at least somewhat consistent with the reason for the Reaper's existence (which should have been re-written anyway, as it's full of problems), but they're ultimately weak decisions. No matter what, you're forced to be the renegade, not the paragon. In other words, the writers leave the player with no real choice, no real decisions; it's hard to say if this is due to poor writing/mechanics/planning, or a vast philosophical statement that no matter what we choose, in the end it doesn't matter. 

Perhaps the next time Bioware wants to go for a "psuedo-philosophical" ending, they should consult philosophers... 

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Unfortunately, yes. But that doesn't prevent me from going along with the theme. Just watch the sequence. It is the option that makes peace, and if you watch Shepard go, you'll see that he's at peace with this being the end of the road for him. It's a messianic sacrifice, how can the result be anything but good? I don't really like that they pushed this element up to eleven in ME3, but it's so well-presented that I can go along with it.

Shepard dies a slave, having surrendered to the will of the Catalyst.
There is nothing noble about this. Shepard died becoming the thing they hated the most.

[Tallestra]

Furluge wrote...

Tallestra wrote...

I'm giving an example where it's not some abstract organic-synthetic symbiosis, but something that you can clearly apply to yourself. Let's just take religion, without changing your body physically. Someone without your consent converts you into some common meta-religion. Since the overwrite is complete, you even don't remeber that once you were a christian or buddist. But does it make it ethical? To force something like this on you, even for a greater good?

Oh yes, it sucks. (Though granted, there's no evidence anyone's memory was erased.) But if my options are between that, wearing the One Ring and hoping I can control it, or exterminating the Jews, then break out the green holy space water because it's baptism time.

You make a good point here:D  Considering that though I'm non-religious Russian, I live in Israel. And actually meta-religion kinda looks like a good idea. But on other hand, too many people would prefer to die than betray their values. 
I still hate all three ending because they simply lack logic to me.

[The Angry One]

jerms510 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

So.. the Reapers couldn't build the Crucible by themselves? They built everything else and they couldn't build that? Balony.

The Reapers were, until that point, an effective solution in the eyes of the Catalyst/godchild. Why explore other options when the one you're already using is working just fine?

Except it wasn't working, and Reapers were the only ones causing the problem they were supposed to prevent.

[jb1983]

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

My whole point is why would those be necessary? If the Reapers (or god-child-AI) had the power to do this all along, then why not do it? 

[JaKaSa]

Well I thought that synthesis was pretty beautiful ending too. Really liked Joker/Edi scene. Then 30 seconds later I realized that it was just like playing god. It made no sense expect maybe in some strange scifi sense and it was like surrending to the reapers making every organic being more like reapers. Synthesis was more againts the nature than destoying reaper's and possibly letting some AIs destroy their creators in the future. How does them being synthesis stop them from creating AIs that can turn againts their creators? Whole galaxy living in harmony thing does not make sense unless no one has free will. I'm glad if someone can be happy with one of endings.

[Furluge]

Tallestra wrote...

Furluge wrote...

Oh yes, it sucks. (Though granted, there's no evidence anyone's memory was erased.) But if my options are between that, wearing the One Ring and hoping I can control it, or exterminating the Jews, then break out the green holy space water because it's baptism time.

You make a good point here:D  Considering that though I'm non-religious Russian, I live in Israel. And actually meta-religion kinda looks like a good idea. But on other hand, too many people would prefer to die than betray their values. 
I still hate all three ending because they simply lack logic to me.

I'd also like to point out, IRL, I'm an athiest. So believe me when I say I am in no way fond of green holy space water baptisms.

[Torrible]

It is beautiful in a way. It could have been done better in a way that reflects more of our choices though. But it isn't anywhere near "I hate the Mass Effect games, Bioware, the world and my entire existence" kind of bad.

[dreman9999]

 I find it half finished. It's thebetter ending for all but missing the final parts to make it good.