779 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

jb1983 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

My whole point is why would those be necessary? If the Reapers (or god-child-AI) had the power to do this all along, then why not do it? 

But it didn't. It only could do it after the crucible was added to it.

[jb1983]

The Angry One wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

So.. the Reapers couldn't build the Crucible by themselves? They built everything else and they couldn't build that? Balony.

The Reapers were, until that point, an effective solution in the eyes of the Catalyst/godchild. Why explore other options when the one you're already using is working just fine?

Except it wasn't working, and Reapers were the only ones causing the problem they were supposed to prevent.

It's even more simple than that. 

If the Citadel - a Reaper construct - is the catalyst, that means the Crucible is also a Reaper construct, otherwise it'd be impossible for ancient species to know that the Citadel can be used as a weapon (Bioware wouldn't allow that big of a hole get through, right? [he said sarcastically]). 

And even if we don't buy the above, we're going to believe that the Reapers can create mass effect relays, but not a crucible that would turn all organic life into a hybrid-synthetic life? Really? 

So my original points still stand - the synthesis option renders the story completely superfluous as everything Shepard does could have been done millions or years ago (or in ME1). 

[DieHigh2012]

John Locke N7 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

And there is no manipulation of dark matter the way biotics do in non video game reality.

i dont think you get what i said.

Mana is a gameplay mechanic, it exists in games for that purpose.

im talking about fantasy literature, and its related because this is a story arc ending not a gameplay end

No I got it, and you ignored my "or some other fantastic reason" comment. You are trying to change the argument. Biotics arenothing more than magic with sudo-scientific reasoning.

[Tallestra]

The Angry One wrote...

Furluge wrote...
Actually I'm pretty sure half the point of that ending is that... no, EDI isn't actually a machine anymore. And yes, that's going to stick everyone's craw in this because it's asking us to believe in a new framework for life that doesn't exist anywhere.

So why does she still look like a machine with green bits?
And how the hell does this green space ray change their brains? EDI does not have a human brain or an approximation of it, she is a droid. It doesn't even follow that her "brain" is going to be in her head, not to mention that she still shares processes with the Normandy.

EDI is not a droid, she's a program, just like Geth, so how exactly they are incorporated with organics? 

[Tony208]

So every race that gets harvested ends up helping the reapers commit genocide the next cycle.

Thanks for killing us all off, we'll help you do the same to someone else the next time around.

They
have some serious plotholes to fix, some of which are probably
unfixable. This is all because they changed the ending from dark energy
to tech singularity.

But they can still salvage the ending.

Modifié par Tony208, 13 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[Furluge]

The Angry One wrote...

Except it wasn't working, and Reapers were the only ones causing the problem they were supposed to prevent.

Except to the Spacebaby it wasn't because they believe that organics synthetic creations would destroy /all/ life. Meaning even the amoebas and primates and cavemen on other planets while the Reapers would ignore them and just kill off the advanced races... and store them as reapers.

I don't think anyone agrees with that logic, but the Spacebaby seems to believe it, so if it thinks it's solution is working, then it isn't going to change it. Of course... how does the crucuible open it up to new ways of solving the problem... heck if I know! Nobody even knows what it does throughout the whole game. Cripes it could be a giant galactic sized choose your own adventure book.

[jb1983]

dreman9999 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

@jb1983:
clearly it was not doable without the crucible + catalyst. Saren had neither, nor did any races in any of the previous cycles.

My whole point is why would those be necessary? If the Reapers (or god-child-AI) had the power to do this all along, then why not do it? 

But it didn't. It only could do it after the crucible was added to it.

Then why didn't the Reapers create a crucible? 

With what you're saying, the Reapers, instead of finding the simplist solution, basically said, "Screw Ockham!" and complicated matters. Why waste time and energy coming back, destroying civilizations, when they could have created a crucible from the get-go and solved all our problems? 

[jb1983]

[quote]Tony208 wrote...

[/quote]
With red you're destroying not only your allies, but countless civilizations. Lest we forget, the collective memories and personalities are stored within the Reapers. By destroying a Reaper, you're essentially destroying an entire civilization and all the knowledge that came with it.
[/quote]

So every race that gets harvested ends up helping the reapers commit genocide the next cycle.

Thanks for killing us all off, we'll help you do the same to someone else the next time around.

They have some serious plotholes to fix, some of which are probably unfixable. This is all because they changed the ending from dark energy to tech singularity.

But they can still salvage the ending.
[/quote]

And that's really where I want to go with my argument. By avoiding the dark energy component, Bioware complicated the story. 

Simplistic story-telling is actually the best. Some of the best movies of all time, best novels of all time, and best epics of all time are essentially very simplistic in their goals. While there is vast complexity in their execution, the overall goal is very simple. Bioware threw that out the window, which is why no one likes the ending. 

[Ieldra]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...
You basically turn everyone into the Borg....

A loss of individuality is not implied. Just the opposite. Consider the symbolism of the geth gaining individuality.

[Furluge]

Tallestra wrote...

EDI is not a droid, she's a program, just like Geth, so how exactly they are incorporated with organics? 

Green magical space rays. Again, like I said before. If any of this was explained adequately we wouldn't be here complaining about the endings. This is only my opinion, but if the endings had more explanation, and maybe an epilogue a lot of people would soothed. We might not exactly like how things turned out, but we'd at least understand what's going and have closure. Instead we have, "OMG! R/G/B explosions (Isn't it nice how they didn't even stray from the primary colors of light?) I think earth was saved, look at the citadel! Holy crap where's Joker going, normandy explosion, Guilligans planet! WTF?!"

[DieHigh2012]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

You basically turn everyone into the Borg....

Yea I had to rewatch some Next Generation to figgure out why the green path made me feel a little dirty.

It is still the best ending for Paragon Shep in my opinion, but Picard is not pleased.

[Furluge]

jb1983 wrote...

Then why didn't the Reapers create a crucible? 

With what you're saying, the Reapers, instead of finding the simplist solution, basically said, "Screw Ockham!" and complicated matters. Why waste time and energy coming back, destroying civilizations, when they could have created a crucible from the get-go and solved all our problems? 

Maybe the idea never occured to them? Maybe they were incapabile of coming up with that idea? Maybe it did but it seemed like to much work (Yes, I know, moreso a giant space war.) so they didn't do it? Maybe they needed the war every 50,000 years to fuel the Reaper military industrial complex? Heck if I know. You're asking for explanations to a poorly explained crappy ending. We could probably spend 50,000 arguing about all the plot holes in the writing.

[jb1983]

Furluge wrote...

Tallestra wrote...

EDI is not a droid, she's a program, just like Geth, so how exactly they are incorporated with organics? 

Green magical space rays. Again, like I said before. If any of this was explained adequately we wouldn't be here complaining about the endings. This is only my opinion, but if the endings had more explanation, and maybe an epilogue a lot of people would soothed. We might not exactly like how things turned out, but we'd at least understand what's going and have closure. Instead we have, "OMG! R/G/B explosions (Isn't it nice how they didn't even stray from the primary colors of light?) I think earth was saved, look at the citadel! Holy crap where's Joker going, normandy explosion, Guilligans planet! WTF?!"

The whole problem is it can't be explained. No amount of DLC can explain really fix that, unless Bioware changed the entire reasoning behind the Reaper's existence (e.g. the Reapers exist to solve the Dark Energy crisis, the Reapers were created by species from another galaxy who want to harvest technology from other galaxies/prevent other galaxies from rising up, the Reapers are simply beings that evolved and this is a process of their evolution, etc). The reasoning Bioware chose is self-contradictory, so no matter what they do it's going to fall flat on its face, because contradictions can't exist (or provide satisfactory endings). 

"We want to prevent organics from being wiped out by synthetics, so we're going to wipe out advanced organics." That's a contradiction and so long as it remains as the premise, nothing is really going to be fixed. 

[Evil_medved]

How the hell magic space rays determine what should be merged anyway? Cinematic shoves idiotic leaves with circuit boards. Meaning my toaster is half-organic now? How the hell i am gonna eat now if fish battery-powered?

Modifié par Evil_medved, 13 mars 2012 - 11:04 .

[Tamcia]

Geth - they are programs, and the geth we see are only platforms - we kill platform but not the programs. IT doesn't matter if their body is made of tissue paper, they are still programs that can changes bodies like they want. They can create a nyan cat with a rainbow for all they care.

EDI - she is still mainly in the ship. Did Normandy become half organic?

[jb1983]

Furluge wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Then why didn't the Reapers create a crucible? 

With what you're saying, the Reapers, instead of finding the simplist solution, basically said, "Screw Ockham!" and complicated matters. Why waste time and energy coming back, destroying civilizations, when they could have created a crucible from the get-go and solved all our problems? 

Maybe the idea never occured to them? Maybe they were incapabile of coming up with that idea? Maybe it did but it seemed like to much work (Yes, I know, moreso a giant space war.) so they didn't do it? Maybe they needed the war every 50,000 years to fuel the Reaper military industrial complex? Heck if I know. You're asking for explanations to a poorly explained crappy ending. We could probably spend 50,000 arguing about all the plot holes in the writing.

You're proving my point though. What I initially said was that this supposed "perfect ending" (blue) nullifies the entire reason for the series existing. The Reapers didn't think about it, but they thought about Mass Relays? They didn't want to do the work, but they (again) built all the Mass Relays and even built the Citadel? 

What I've been trying to show is that the blue ending isn't beautiful because it actually ruins the entire premise for the series. 

[Tallestra]

All the motivations behind reaper's and god-child's actions, as well as solutions presented lack so much logic and coherence, that we can run in circles around them for ages without making sense.
Go for the eyes, Boo!

[jerms510]

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

[Furluge]

jb1983 wrote...

The whole problem is it can't be explained. No amount of DLC can explain really fix that, unless Bioware changed the entire reasoning behind the Reaper's existence (e.g. the Reapers exist to solve the Dark Energy crisis, the Reapers were created by species from another galaxy who want to harvest technology from other galaxies/prevent other galaxies from rising up, the Reapers are simply beings that evolved and this is a process of their evolution, etc). The reasoning Bioware chose is self-contradictory, so no matter what they do it's going to fall flat on its face, because contradictions can't exist (or provide satisfactory endings). 

"We want to prevent organics from being wiped out by synthetics, so we're going to wipe out advanced organics." That's a contradiction and so long as it remains as the premise, nothing is really going to be fixed. 

jb1983 wrote...

You're proving my point though. What I
initially said was that this supposed "perfect ending" (blue) nullifies
the entire reason for the series existing. The Reapers didn't think
about it, but they thought about Mass Relays? They didn't want to do the
work, but they (again) built all the Mass Relays and even built the
Citadel? 

What I've been trying to show is that the blue ending
isn't beautiful because it actually ruins the entire premise for the
series. 

All the endings are pretty bad and don't make a whole lot of sense. Didn't stop Bioware from making them the ending though. And this is the lime-flavored ending thread sir. Please take your blueberry or strawberry flavored shenanigans elsewhere where they belong. XD

[Tony208]

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

You now have two rectums, you don't know how it happened but it did. Do you feel like you have free will?

Yeah that's what happens to everyone in Synthesis.

[Furluge]

Tony208 wrote...
Yeah that's what happens to everyone in Synthesis.

We are not going into the if free will is an illusion rabbit hole. No. Just no. Bad forum-goer. Bad. No lolcats for you.

[Lmaoboat]

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

If you're still the same you after the magic space juju, then they've acomplished nothing but making everything all glowy. If synthesis is suposed to make everyone all perfect, then it has to competely change who they are. It's pretty much the same thing has rewriting the heritic geth. Perfcet utopia is mutually exlusive with free will and indivuality. 

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 13 mars 2012 - 11:17 .

[goofyomnivore]

I bet Joker is pissed. Half synthetic and he still walks with a limp.

[Legbiter]

Synthesis is just reaperizing every organic in the galaxy. My Shep is not like Saren.