779 réponses à ce sujet

[asilarae]

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

You're confusing the usage of the term: we're not saying that after the synthesis that no one has free will, we're saying that by making a decision that literally changes the genetic code of every living thing in the universe without giving the universe the chance to decide, we're negating each person's free will in making that decision.  I mentioned earlier, it may very well be the best choice--with no real proof of the outcomes, it's hard to say--but it's still an ethically ambiguous decision. 

[jb1983]

Furluge wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

The whole problem is it can't be explained. No amount of DLC can explain really fix that, unless Bioware changed the entire reasoning behind the Reaper's existence (e.g. the Reapers exist to solve the Dark Energy crisis, the Reapers were created by species from another galaxy who want to harvest technology from other galaxies/prevent other galaxies from rising up, the Reapers are simply beings that evolved and this is a process of their evolution, etc). The reasoning Bioware chose is self-contradictory, so no matter what they do it's going to fall flat on its face, because contradictions can't exist (or provide satisfactory endings). 

"We want to prevent organics from being wiped out by synthetics, so we're going to wipe out advanced organics." That's a contradiction and so long as it remains as the premise, nothing is really going to be fixed. 

jb1983 wrote...

You're proving my point though. What I
initially said was that this supposed "perfect ending" (blue) nullifies
the entire reason for the series existing. The Reapers didn't think
about it, but they thought about Mass Relays? They didn't want to do the
work, but they (again) built all the Mass Relays and even built the
Citadel? 

What I've been trying to show is that the blue ending
isn't beautiful because it actually ruins the entire premise for the
series. 

All the endings are pretty bad and don't make a whole lot of sense. Didn't stop Bioware from making them the ending though. And this is the lime-flavored ending thread sir. Please take your blueberry or strawberry flavored shenanigans elsewhere where they belong. XD

I don't support any of the flavors. I'm pointing out the absurdity in saying this one is somehow beautiful. It's not. It ruins the story...just like all of the endings. None of them are good, they're all very poorly written and thought out.

That's what's so frustrating. 

[jahaa]

I know it is beautiful watching your Shep jumping to that light with a smile, now free of all pain.

But for me that is the wrong decission since you do what the space casper wants. The objective is to destroy the reapers, and now you can, but instead of that you let them live.

Who thinks this is the best option? the kid. The same kid who says he can control the reapers. You are supposed to destroy the reapers. You want it since ME1. Then destroy them.

Of course the destruction of the mass relays is a nonsense. That is the only thing (and the infamous scene of the Normandy in the middle of nowhere) i think they should change, because without the mass relays the is no more Mass Effect.

And with that perspective the developers killed my interest in future dlcs.
If this is the end of the story, i wont need new weapons/armors/characters/whatever.

Modifié par jahaa, 13 mars 2012 - 11:23 .

[Dilandau3000]

Another problem with the syntehsis ending is basic chemistry. Not only is it still possible for the new hybridized life to still create new pure synthetics, unless they changed the fundamental nature of the universe (and if they could do that, the entire ending is pointless anyway) there is no reason that abiogenesis couldn't occur again on some other planet, creating new pure organics.

Unless you want to argue that there's now some galaxy-encompassing field that attaches a transistor to any atoms that happen to form an amino acid, which would be even more stupid.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 13 mars 2012 - 11:20 .

[jb1983]

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

If I determine to change you without your consent, then I'm acting against your free will. 

[Qutayba]

I had originally complained that the choices do not affect your friends, but when you think about it, your choices are all about Joker and EDI's happiness. In the red ending, you condemn Joker to eternal bachelorhood - until he hooks up with whatever chick crashed with him. In the green ending, Joker and EDI get to reproduce, giving birth to Hera, the cylon-human hybrid . . . wait, wrong series.

So the secret to understanding the ending is that the universe revolves around Joker. Could this all have been HIS dream?!

Modifié par Qutayba, 13 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[jerms510]

jb1983 wrote...

Furluge wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Then why didn't the Reapers create a crucible? 

With what you're saying, the Reapers, instead of finding the simplist solution, basically said, "Screw Ockham!" and complicated matters. Why waste time and energy coming back, destroying civilizations, when they could have created a crucible from the get-go and solved all our problems? 

Maybe the idea never occured to them? Maybe they were incapabile of coming up with that idea? Maybe it did but it seemed like to much work (Yes, I know, moreso a giant space war.) so they didn't do it? Maybe they needed the war every 50,000 years to fuel the Reaper military industrial complex? Heck if I know. You're asking for explanations to a poorly explained crappy ending. We could probably spend 50,000 arguing about all the plot holes in the writing.

You're proving my point though. What I initially said was that this supposed "perfect ending" (blue) nullifies the entire reason for the series existing. The Reapers didn't think about it, but they thought about Mass Relays? They didn't want to do the work, but they (again) built all the Mass Relays and even built the Citadel? 

What I've been trying to show is that the blue ending isn't beautiful because it actually ruins the entire premise for the series. 

I'm assuming by "blue" you meant "green". The Reapers were (ostensibly) a creation of the catalyst/wunderkind/godchild. Their purpose appears to be to maintain a destructive-yet-sustainable cycle of evolution in the galaxy. As Sovereign even says in the first game, they built the Mass Relays and other integral pieces of technology in order to dictate a specific path of advancement; i.e. to ensure a consistent cycle.

Now, the godchild states the reason for this is to ensure that synthetic life does not obliterate -ALL- life in the galaxy. Another poster mentioned that it was silly to create synthetic life to kill organic life in order to prevent synthetic life from killing organic life, but there is a clear difference. The reapers only harvest the advanced races, to make room for the next cycle; it is conjectured that, in lieu of this, a synthetic race that was created by the organics would wipe out ALL organic life. Brings us back to the common theme of ends and means in this game.

All of the preceeding is stated in-game, and is not speculation. What is up for debate, however, is the initial motivation for creating this cycle of extinction and rebirth; what made it necessary for the creation of the Reapers, the Mass Relays, etc. This is the major failing by the writers: They neglected to address the origin of this cyclical event. Instead, they've left us with "it is beyond your comprehension..."

[jerms510]

jb1983 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

If I determine to change you without your consent, then I'm acting against your free will. 

I had no choice when I was conceived, or that I became a human; do I not have free will?

[Furluge]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

Another problem with the syntehsis ending is basic chemistry. Not only is it still possible for the new hybridized life to still create new pure synthetics, unless they changed the fundamental nature of the universe (and if they could do that, the entire ending is pointless anyway) there is no reason that abiogenesis couldn't occur again on some other planet, creating new pure organics.

Unless you want to argue that there's now some galaxy-encompassing field that attaches a transistor to any atoms that happen to form an amino acid, which would be even more stupid.

I'm inclined to believe you changed the fundamental nature of the universe. It seems you would have to to make it work period. We're talking, changing the value G level change here. And no, it doesn't really make the ending that much better.

[Tony208]

jerms510 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

If I determine to change you without your consent, then I'm acting against your free will. 

I had no choice when I was conceived, or that I became a human; do I not have free will?

lol creating something and changing something are not the same thing

[Sonashi]

Let's forget about hallucination theory for a moment.

Control ending (in my opinion the worst)- you became new catalyst. You can control Reapers and you decide when new cycle should start (if it's needed). You sacrificed your own life but Geth and EDI lives. Now whole point of stopping TIM in ME 3 is lost.

Synthesis (second)- you sacrificed own life to preserve all races. Reapers still exsists and old Catalyst still has control. So you became sort of slave. For example you don't like something Reapers can make you opposite. Your own will is illusion. In every moment you can be controlled by them, just like they did with Saren who was extended with Reaper tech or like Geth who was improved by them too.

Destroy (the best) - the whole point of ME is about stopping Reapers. Once you destroy them you are safe. Of course you sacrificed all synthetic life. But this is a war you have to sacrifice if you want win. Catalyst is gone. New start without Reaper nanny. You decide how new galaxy will look like.

Modifié par Sonashi, 13 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[DieHigh2012]

Tony208 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

You now have two rectums, you don't know how it happened but it did. Do you feel like you have free will?

Yeah that's what happens to everyone in Synthesis.

If you take that stance then no one alive today has free will. We look the way we do because of evolution, and I don't remeber being "ask" by evolution reguarding any of it's improvments on me.

[asilarae]

I reject your reality and substitute my own?


oh jegus that actually works doesn't it

[nevar00]

I actually thought it could be the worst ending, and that is saying something. I felt like they all invalidated every decision you made, but that one especially so.

[DarkSpiral]

jb1983 wrote...

The problem with the synthesis ending, no matter your views on it, is that in 30 seconds it nullifies hundreds of hours of gameplay and the entire reason for the Reapers existing.

If synthesis is the solution to the problem between organics and synthetics, then why didn't the Reapers just offer that millions of years ago, or force it upon someone? Why not give an early organic synthetic upgrades and, boom, problem solved?

Secondly, ignoring the fact that the ending completely contradicts the entire point of the game (at least as explained prior to this choice), if anyone with implants can be dumped in there, did we not just kill the Illusive Man? Why can't he be thrown in?

Third, aren't you just taking the path that Saren offerred in ME1? Why is it that the Reapers didn't offer him this choice back in ME1 since it apparently solves the problem between organics and synthetics?

Fourth, it's the exact solution the Reapers are trying to enact, only without bloodshed. The species were "raised up" into Reaper form through a very bloody process. We know from ME1 and ME2 that Reapers are both synthetic and organic. The synthesis option does exactly what the Reapers are attempting to do, albeit bloodlessly. So why didn't they just do that from the beginning (see my previous three points)?

So no, it's not "beautifully done." It's horribly written, contradicts everything, and shows that the Reapers are ultimately superfluous to the story. If you can simply create a synthesis so synthetics and organics will never war against each other, then there's no need for the Reapers.

Let me state first I don't really like any of the endings, but yes I took (and prefer) Synthesis.  I could not see killing an entire race I had JUST HELPED ACHIEVE TRUE INTELLIGENCE as being a better option.  EDI as well.

Control was off the table for me.

Now, I feel I must point out to those people that ask the valid question of why this option wasn't offered before that the Catalyst first says that when the Crucible interfaces with the Citadel, it changed the Catalyst.  New possibilities were made available, though it can't and won't actualize those possibilites personally.  Second, it also clearly states that the moment Shepard arrived at the Catalyst's area, it's solution became invalid.  Organics have achieved something they've never done before.  It will happen again.  Thus, a new solution has to be found.  Shepard's presense make this necessary.  Before he made it clear organics can and will (eventually) make it to this point again, there was no reason for the Caralyst to consider other solutions.

[jarms48]

IsaacShep wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

ye, but why couldn't i just toss dead Anderson in the beam?

Because he wasn't a partially synthetic like Shep was, thought it was clear.

So I could of thrown the dead illusive man into the beam.

Modifié par jarms48, 13 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[Furluge]

Sonashi wrote...

Let's forget about hallucination theory for a moment.

Control ending (in my opinion the worst)- you became new catalyst. You can control Reapers and you decide when new cycle should start (if it's needed). You sacrificed your own life but Geth and EDI lives. Now whole point of stopping TIM in ME 3 is lost.

Synthesis (second)- you sacrificed own life to preserve all races. Reapers still exsists and old Catalyst still has control. So you became sort of slave. For example you don't like something Reapers can make you opposite. Your own will is illusion. In every moment you can be controlled by them, just like they did with Saren who was extended with Reaper tech or like Geth who was improved by them too.

Destroy (the best) - the whole point of ME is about stopping Reapers. Once you destroy them you are safe. Of course you sacrificed all synthetic life. But this is a war you have to do that if you want win. Catalyst is gone. New start without Reaper nanny

In all seriousness though I can understand where you're coming from. If you're willing to commit genocide and you don't believe the Spacebaby's assertation that you'll inevitably kill yourself off when you make more synthetic life (Which I don't.) Then you're good. I just can't get around that whole genocide thing. Although there's nothing to suggest the Reapers can make you opposite or that free will is an illusion in the lime-flavored ending. Heck it's pretty clear the crucible is destroyed at that point, as are the means to enact the change it makes.

[Icinix]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Unfortunately, yes. But that doesn't prevent me from going along with the theme. Just watch the sequence. It is the option that makes peace, and if you watch Shepard go, you'll see that he's at peace with this being the end of the road for him. It's a messianic sacrifice, how can the result be anything but good? I don't really like that they pushed this element up to eleven in ME3, but it's so well-presented that I can go along with it.

Shepard dies a slave, having surrendered to the will of the Catalyst.
There is nothing noble about this. Shepard died becoming the thing they hated the most.

Even if they intended this to be the reasoning - creating peace or whatever.

They really needed to flesh it out more and make the Reapers less than the almighty evil they are constanlty made out to be. It just doesn't make sense for them to suddenly roll over and go "ahh, our bad. Even though we're composed of millions of beings we painfully murdered over the years. Friends?"

You can re-write DNA to create a supposed peace - but how can you re-write history? How can you rewrite the horrors everyone has already experienced? How can you re-write the disgust that the Reapers feel for the Geth? Even if it brings peace - its a false peace. Its up there with drugging the population to believe as you do.

[zarnk567]

Yes the synthesis ending makes perfect sense, since it had so much explanation and the story was leading up to that..... oh wait

[DarkSpiral]

jerms510 wrote...

I'm assuming by "blue" you meant "green". The Reapers were (ostensibly) a creation of the catalyst/wunderkind/godchild. Their purpose appears to be to maintain a destructive-yet-sustainable cycle of evolution in the galaxy. As Sovereign even says in the first game, they built the Mass Relays and other integral pieces of technology in order to dictate a specific path of advancement; i.e. to ensure a consistent cycle.

Now, the godchild states the reason for this is to ensure that synthetic life does not obliterate -ALL- life in the galaxy. Another poster mentioned that it was silly to create synthetic life to kill organic life in order to prevent synthetic life from killing organic life, but there is a clear difference. The reapers only harvest the advanced races, to make room for the next cycle; it is conjectured that, in lieu of this, a synthetic race that was created by the organics would wipe out ALL organic life. Brings us back to the common theme of ends and means in this game.

All of the preceeding is stated in-game, and is not speculation. What is up for debate, however, is the initial motivation for creating this cycle of extinction and rebirth; what made it necessary for the creation of the Reapers, the Mass Relays, etc. This is the major failing by the writers: They neglected to address the origin of this cyclical event. Instead, they've left us with "it is beyond your comprehension..."

It seemed clear to me, though you're absolutely righ tthat it was never actually explained.  At some point in the past that is so distant the number is a bit hard to actually conceive of, organics and synthetics were at war.  Someone created the Catalyst to analyze the situation and find a solution.  The Reapers, the Mass Relays, and the Citadel were that solution.  The Catalyst is therefore a case of something working so well it's bad.  There's a trope for that.

[Furluge]

jarms48 wrote...

So I could of thrown the dead illusive man into the beam.

Well except that he's dead already... I'd also like to think that maybe some of the intangible qualities of Shepard were involved too, but that's only conjecture.

[Tony208]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

jerms510 wrote...

not sure where everyone is pulling the "negating peoples' free will" thing from. Must be from their rectums. I'm a human; always been a human. Does the fact that I can't be anything else mean I don't have free will? What the hell are you guys smoking??

You now have two rectums, you don't know how it happened but it did. Do you feel like you have free will?

Yeah that's what happens to everyone in Synthesis.

If you take that stance then no one alive today has free will. We look the way we do because of evolution, and I don't remeber being "ask" by evolution reguarding any of it's improvments on me.

What...? You naturally evolved into what you are today. If tomorrow you had green circuit veins because someone shot you with a magic explosion, your free will was violated, it's as simple as that.

[Furluge]

I know, but I just can't control the ring, and I can't bring myself to shoot Wall-E in his cute little head!

[DarkSpiral]

Tony208 wrote...
What...? You naturally evolved into what you are today. If tomorrow you had green circuit veins because someone shot you with a magic explosion, your free will was violated, it's as simple as that.

Violated, yes.  Removed, no, not necesarilly.  That's speculation.

[Dreadcall]

strive wrote...

I bet Joker is pissed. Half synthetic and he still walks with a limp.

Ohh come on, did you really think "the final evolution of life" would cure brittle bone disease?