1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaidster]

Nefelius wrote...

Like it does make any sense?

Sure it does, every single piece fits perfectly. Go read the OP _without bias_ and you should be able to see it. Granted, there are many ways of assembling a puzzle. Like the OP said before, it's one of the benefits of an open ending. (I'm still hoping for closure though).

[Tiax Rules All]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Believe what you like, Tiax. The truth is, Bioware's writing team effed up and effed up bigtime.

If this were a movie, it would have been critically panned. If this were a movie, it would be playing on a single screen after the opening weekend and out of theaters within a month. If this were a movie, it would be a box office FLOP.

If this were a movie, the next time the writer and producer get together, the studio would force a shoestring budget and a direct to video release.

If this were a book, the writer would lose readers. If this were a sport, the team would lose fans.

People are rightfully furious about the endings, which pull a massive genre shift and introduce a *literal* Deus Ex Machina at the last minute.

i simply dissagre. I think this will either be "solved" by future dlc or will blow over in time.
Mass Effect is going to win tons of awards and continue to be critcally aclaimed

[sorentoft]

Tedler wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Tedler wrote...

Spewing a mix of speculation and headcanon and trying to pass it off as "what clearly happened" does not work.

Be nice. It is a valid theory, still just a theory, but a valid one.

I agree, I just don't appreciate people claiming that this theory is definitively what actually happened.

I would too appreciate if the supporters of this theory calls it a theory instead of proclaiming it a fact. I just do not think hostility is the right way to make your point come across.

[Katashii]

Lugaidster wrote...

Katashii wrote...

Like alot of people here have said repeatedly, if it needs explaining, it aint a good ending. Plain and Simple

By your logic, 50% of the movies and books out there have "bad" endings. Simple isn't the only alternative.

But if the ending is supposed to be this amiguous "piece of art", then isn't the existence of this very thread a huge contradiction?

[Lugaidster]

jabajack wrote...

Interesting theory but that scene isn't much to support it unless Bioware admits that was the case. Just have to hope that Bioware explains and if future DLC will correct.

I'm pretty sure they'll come out at some point. At least to defend their position. In any case, even if Bioware disproves this theory, I'll gladly make it my headcanon. The alternative is too bad in my opinion.

[El Diablo]

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the player.

Hallucinations are fine. making most of the players unable to win a game they paid for is not.

Modifié par El Diablo, 13 mars 2012 - 01:03 .

[MassiveEffects]

sorentoft wrote...

I would too appreciate if the supporters of this theory calls it a theory instead of proclaiming it a fact. I just do not think hostility is the right way to make your point come across.

You do realize that you're asking for civil, rational discussion on the internet, of all places, right?

[Lugaidster]

Katashii wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Katashii wrote...

Like alot of people here have said repeatedly, if it needs explaining, it aint a good ending. Plain and Simple

By your logic, 50% of the movies and books out there have "bad" endings. Simple isn't the only alternative.

But if the ending is supposed to be this amiguous "piece of art", then isn't the existence of this very thread a huge contradiction?

Go ask 80% of the people that saw Donnie Darko what did the end mean. I'm pretty sure that if they had an official forum about the movie (like this one), most of them would go there say it was non-sense. The complicated part in this theory isn't what validates or invalidates the ending. 

[Nefelius]

Lugaidster wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Like it does make any sense?

Sure it does, every single piece fits perfectly. Go read the OP _without bias_ and you should be able to see it. Granted, there are many ways of assembling a puzzle. Like the OP said before, it's one of the benefits of an open ending. (I'm still hoping for closure though).

No it does not.

You are NOT indoctrinated since Prothean VI TWICE confirmed that.
You are NOT sleeping because you see "breathing" vid only in red option. 
Only in red option you are not disentigrated and just got hit by big kaboom, thus you could've survived.

[Tiax Rules All]

Lugaidster wrote...

jabajack wrote...

Interesting theory but that scene isn't much to support it unless Bioware admits that was the case. Just have to hope that Bioware explains and if future DLC will correct.

I'm pretty sure they'll come out at some point. At least to defend their position. In any case, even if Bioware disproves this theory, I'll gladly make it my headcanon. The alternative is too bad in my opinion.

I like that "headcanon"
I might have to use that at some point.

[Jago360]

why you talking about "hate"? i hate nothing. i love bioware and i love mass effect but the end just makes me sad and i want to finished my favorite game with a smile on my lips, not with tears so big like quarian lifeship!

[piemanz]

El Diablo wrote...

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the player.

Hallucinations are fine. making most of the players unable to win a game they paid for is not.

The point is you already succeeded. Shepard doesn't die in any of the endings, and the Reapers are defeated regardless of what you choose. It's just that making certain choices and having a high enough EMS obviously means Shep is strong enough to fight indoctination and get the special bonus scene.

Thats assuming this theory is correct, and the more i think about it the more it makes sense.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Capeo]

El Diablo wrote...

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the player.

Precisely.  And I'll mention again the script has the exact same endings, including the Shep lives Destroy ending, and it calls Synthesis the "perfect" ending.  There's no mention of any indoctrination except as far as TIM is concerned.  If this was BWs intention it would have been mentioned somewhere.    

[LeonRoughan]

I have an open mind towards it, there are subtle nuances throughout the games which suggest indoctrination. You simply cannot be exposed that much to Reaper tech and not be affected.

However.

Some of the problems need addressing.

The theory insinuates Bioware are going to make us pay to complete our game. Not going to happen, I didn't lay down 35 quid to be told I have to pay more to finish it. If the dlc is free it is still a bit of a dodgy tactic.

The dev team wasted time creating a load of cutscenes for an ending that never happened. Rather pointless waste of time and resources.

If we are, for a moment, to compare it to a cinema blockbuster (this is indeed a blockbuster game) then how would you react if the screen cut to black before the true ending, the lights go up and then the ticket guy comes round and tells you you have to come back a month from now to watch the ending? Pretty sure most people would be thinking "no thanks, money back please".

If Bioware are really deploying the 'wait until everyone has finished it, boom! New ending' tactic then i'll be genuinely dead set against Bioware for being so far up their own uncomfortable places (new forum rules, keeping it civil haha) that they think the world revolves around them.

We all love the Mass Effect universe, we are all cut deeply by the ending. If games do start being released incomplete (this is not an episodic game in a sense that something like Back To The Future is) then my faith in the industry is shaken to its core, it's a huge lack of professionalism and proving that money is really all they care about.

I'd like to believe, I really would. But I just am not sold on the idea that they would gamble an entire franchise on peoples patience.

I will always maintain a tiny amount of hope, after all, thats what the games were all about.

[MassiveEffects]

El Diablo wrote...

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as
things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to
figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a
decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a
super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the
player.

Hallucinations are fine. making most of the players unable to win a game they paid for is not.

For the sake of playing the devil's advocate, Reaper indoctrination is one of the few cases in video games when I feel like that kind of "breach of the trust contract" sort of would make sense. After all, making the player feel like Shepard is a sort of extension of themself that they can use to express themselves and their ethics in this fictional universe is a big part of the Mass Effect series. So, if this being a hallucination was Bioware's intent (which I quite frankly doubt), then I think that breaching this "contract" was actually kind of appropriate.

The second half of your post I can get behind fully, however.

Modifié par MassiveEffects, 13 mars 2012 - 01:11 .

[zr0iq]

This doesn't even touch the point that the ending doesn't feel like an ending at all.

[Lugaidster]

Nefelius wrote...

No it does not.

1) You are NOT indoctrinated since Prothean VI TWICE confirmed that.
2) You are NOT sleeping because you see "breathing" vid only in red option. 
3) Only in red option you are not disentigrated and just got hit by big kaboom, thus you could've survived.

Let's clear it out in order:

1) If I'm trying to indoctrinate you, you are not indoctrinated, otherwise I wouldn't need to try. Because of that, the dream in the end is interpreted to be an indoctrination attempt.

2) You only see breathing in that option because in the other options you fell for the indoctrination. Interpreted as you lost your will to fight.

3) Explain to me how he could've survived if the Citadel, which is in space, exploded. How could Shepard survive a fall from space to Earth, reentry included? If you want to talk about farfetched, that's preeeetty farfetched.

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 01:11 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Nefelius wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Like it does make any sense?

Sure it does, every single piece fits perfectly. Go read the OP _without bias_ and you should be able to see it. Granted, there are many ways of assembling a puzzle. Like the OP said before, it's one of the benefits of an open ending. (I'm still hoping for closure though).

No it does not.

You are NOT indoctrinated since Prothean VI TWICE confirmed that.
You are NOT sleeping because you see "breathing" vid only in red option. 
Only in red option you are not disentigrated and just got hit by big kaboom, thus you could've survived.

you didnt read the OP, the game explains all of that.

*if you choose destroy, at no point is shepard ever indoctrinated. he has a FIGHT for indoctrination at the end, were you can win or lose. Harbinger was only able to affect sheps mind after he took the blast and was weakend mentally and physically.

* nobody is "sleeping" shep is knocked out/dying what have you and only by chosing destroy and breaking your indoctrination test do you ever get to "awake" from it.  not until you choose control or synthesis in the hallucination are ACTUALLY indoctrinated, but those choices solidify it, you were fooled by the reapers into comprimise and you lose your mind, never to awake at the end

* no kaboom actually happened, that was sheps subconscience imaging his victory, trying to set itself at ease before he dies (come back to life at last second with breath)

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 01:14 .

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

The OP is incorrect. I see very little complaining that Shepard dies. We all know he can live. One of the problems is that in order for Shepard to live he must doom the Geth and EDI. He must also send the galaxy into a galactic dark age as the starchild tells him it will destroy much of the technology people rely on. Going as far as to specifically point out that Shepard has cybernetic implants. These will presumably fail. Good luck getting medical attention after waking up in that rubble Shepard.

Under this ending a rescue for the Normandy's crew seems impossible. Meaning Tali and Garrus starve, or shoot each other in the head to prevent such a torturous death.

This is all before we address plot holes, insane reaper motives and SPACE MAGIC.

[Lugaidster]

zr0iq wrote...

This doesn't even touch the point that the ending doesn't feel like an ending at all.

The theory predicts this. That's why everyone is hopeful that a DLC will come, which will start after the breathing scene.

[zingro]

@Tiax Rules All -
I agree with your conclusion of what may be.. I feel the same way to. It could be one of many twists Bioware created to blow our minds, if it is true then they have pulled the biggest mind f**k on a lot of fans. Kudos B ~ Truly epic game conclusion *claps*

I was fooled myself at first to, It does sound like the most plausible conclusion to Shepard's end...

Whatever the endings true picture is, whether its deep or mysterious seems to be the main problem here. Having a more simple and clear cut picture, defining all our unanswered questions and choices that we have made from beginning to end, must be explained in a more general way that everyone can understand.

From the obvious backlash we have seen regarding the endings, people don't want deep and mysterious twilight zone endings.

People want closure that we can all relate to on a common level.

My 2cents ^_-

[Lugaidster]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

The OP is incorrect. I see very little complaining that Shepard dies. We all know he can live. One of the problems is that in order for Shepard to live he must doom the Geth and EDI. He must also send the galaxy into a galactic dark age as the starchild tells him it will destroy much of the technology people rely on. Going as far as to specifically point out that Shepard has cybernetic implants. These will presumably fail. Good luck getting medical attention after waking up in that rubble Shepard.

Under this ending a rescue for the Normandy's crew seems impossible. Meaning Tali and Garrus starve, or shoot each other in the head to prevent such a torturous death.

This is all before we address plot holes, insane reaper motives and SPACE MAGIC.

You clearly didn't read the OP. If it's a hallucination/dream/dying flash, then it means nothing showed between Shepard getting hit and breathing in the rubble happened.

[Asturok]

Since the ending is so unresolved and open to multiple interpretations, until bioware says another thing I will believe in this theory. It makes perfect sense to me

Thanks

[OozesAwesome]

I'm on board with Tiax. I finished the game last night and chose the destroy option. I'm on very little sleep because my mind was racing last night trying to peice together what the hell just happened. Then it came to me that Shepherd was never on the citadel. Shepherd is lying in the rubble in London. Commander Shepherd is dead, perhaps this is his ascension to heaven, or perhaps the Reapers are attempting indoctrination. Regardless the ending is a hallucination. The breath Shephard takes at the very end, if you've accomplished this, further confirms that there is more to come. Perhaps he is being revived. Be prepared for more DLC, we may very well get the ending we are hoping for, and EA can get more money of course.
In my opinion, this is the greatest story ever told, the game up until the end was simply spectacular and moving, the utter confusion presented at the end can only be a hallucination. This series is written too well to just suddenly fall on its face like that. I believe Bioware is fully invested in this story and there is more to come. And it will be epic.

I appreciated the sysnopsis put together by Tiax. It certainly puts more into perspective.

[AlexXIV]

Lugaidster wrote...

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

The OP is incorrect. I see very little complaining that Shepard dies. We all know he can live. One of the problems is that in order for Shepard to live he must doom the Geth and EDI. He must also send the galaxy into a galactic dark age as the starchild tells him it will destroy much of the technology people rely on. Going as far as to specifically point out that Shepard has cybernetic implants. These will presumably fail. Good luck getting medical attention after waking up in that rubble Shepard.

Under this ending a rescue for the Normandy's crew seems impossible. Meaning Tali and Garrus starve, or shoot each other in the head to prevent such a torturous death.

This is all before we address plot holes, insane reaper motives and SPACE MAGIC.

You clearly didn't read the OP. If it's a hallucination/dream/dying flash, then it means nothing showed between Shepard getting hit and breathing in the rubble happened.

And that's the only way it makes at least a bit of sense. I don't know how my Shep gets these fancy ideas though of merging synthetics and organics, but oh well. Must be subconscience playing a trick on her.