1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Tiax Rules All]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

The OP is incorrect. I see very little complaining that Shepard dies. We all know he can live. One of the problems is that in order for Shepard to live he must doom the Geth and EDI. He must also send the galaxy into a galactic dark age as the starchild tells him it will destroy much of the technology people rely on. Going as far as to specifically point out that Shepard has cybernetic implants. These will presumably fail. Good luck getting medical attention after waking up in that rubble Shepard.

Under this ending a rescue for the Normandy's crew seems impossible. Meaning Tali and Garrus starve, or shoot each other in the head to prevent such a torturous death.

This is all before we address plot holes, insane reaper motives and SPACE MAGIC.

I can prove that wihtout a doubt wrong, this one is easy.

you are lied to. the destroy option only kills reapers, like the crucible inteded, the boy lies to dissuade you.
PROOF OF THIS IS THAT ONLY DESTROY OPTION SHOWS YOU LIVING.

kid said you would die / destroy reapers anyway / realize you just survived and chose correctly

[Tiax Rules All]

zingro wrote...

@Tiax Rules All -
I agree with your conclusion of what may be.. I feel the same way to. It could be one of many twists Bioware created to blow our minds, if it is true then they have pulled the biggest mind f**k on a lot of fans. Kudos B ~ Truly epic game conclusion *claps*

I was fooled myself at first to, It does sound like the most plausible conclusion to Shepard's end...

Whatever the endings true picture is, whether its deep or mysterious seems to be the main problem here. Having a more simple and clear cut picture, defining all our unanswered questions and choices that we have made from beginning to end, must be explained in a more general way that everyone can understand.

From the obvious backlash we have seen regarding the endings, people don't want deep and mysterious twilight zone endings.

People want closure that we can all relate to on a common level.

My 2cents ^_-

quote for truth

[El Diablo]

MassiveEffects wrote...

El Diablo wrote...

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as
things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to
figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a
decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a
super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the
player.

Hallucinations are fine. making most of the players unable to win a game they paid for is not.

For the sake of playing the devil's advocate, Reaper indoctrination is one of the few cases in video games when I feel like that kind of "breach of the trust contract" sort of would make sense. After all, making the player feel like Shepard is a sort of extension of themself that they can use to express themselves and their ethics in this fictional universe is a big part of the Mass Effect series. So, if this being a hallucination was Bioware's intent (which I quite frankly doubt), then I think that breaching this "contract" was actually kind of appropriate.

The second half of your post I can get behind fully, however.

A fair point, I'd agree with if it was..telegraphed a bit better. Say as you approach the 'wrong' choise they make some ominous background sound plays like the reaper horn. Or hell a critical mission failure screen after you picked it with a reload right before the choise. 

The Hordes of the Underdark expansion pack for Neverwinter nights actually had something like that. but that involved mindflayers (who are well known for mind tricks) and in the vission there is some description that there is something not quite right.

Also not every shepard is out to 'Destroy the reapers' Mine was just out to bring and end to the war wether that the reapers needed to be destroyed for that or not.

[Nefelius]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Like it does make any sense?

Sure it does, every single piece fits perfectly. Go read the OP _without bias_ and you should be able to see it. Granted, there are many ways of assembling a puzzle. Like the OP said before, it's one of the benefits of an open ending. (I'm still hoping for closure though).

No it does not.

You are NOT indoctrinated since Prothean VI TWICE confirmed that.
You are NOT sleeping because you see "breathing" vid only in red option. 
Only in red option you are not disentigrated and just got hit by big kaboom, thus you could've survived.

you didnt read the OP, the game explains all of that.

*if you choose destroy, at no point is shepard ever indoctrinated. he has a FIGHT for indoctrination at the end, were you can win or lose. Harbinger was only able to affect sheps mind after he took the blast and was weakend mentally and physically.

* nobody is "sleeping" shep is knocked out/dying what have you and only by chosing destroy and breaking your indoctrination test do you ever get to "awake" from it.  not until you choose control or synthesis in the hallucination are ACTUALLY indoctrinated, but those choices solidify it, you were fooled by the reapers into comprimise and you lose your mind, never to awake at the end

* no kaboom actually happened, that was sheps subconscience imaging his victory, trying to set itself at ease before he dies (come back to life at last second with breath)

"Harbinger indoctrinated SHep after he blasted him"
 Lol. Following that logic i  say that a giant whale was inside the Crucible and he used the wizard kid as a puppet so sound his thoughts.
 Or, or Habinja's lazer contained a decent portion of LCD in his.Or. or that Shepard is not Shepard at all. He's a tree in the Central Park.
Sir, youare fanatic. i don't speak to fanatics. This exchange is over.  

P.S. These theories are nothing but a product of denial stage.

Modifié par Nefelius, 13 mars 2012 - 01:26 .

[Lugaidster]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

The OP is incorrect. I see very little complaining that Shepard dies. We all know he can live. One of the problems is that in order for Shepard to live he must doom the Geth and EDI. He must also send the galaxy into a galactic dark age as the starchild tells him it will destroy much of the technology people rely on. Going as far as to specifically point out that Shepard has cybernetic implants. These will presumably fail. Good luck getting medical attention after waking up in that rubble Shepard.

Under this ending a rescue for the Normandy's crew seems impossible. Meaning Tali and Garrus starve, or shoot each other in the head to prevent such a torturous death.

This is all before we address plot holes, insane reaper motives and SPACE MAGIC.

You clearly didn't read the OP. If it's a hallucination/dream/dying flash, then it means nothing showed between Shepard getting hit and breathing in the rubble happened.

And that's the only way it makes at least a bit of sense. I don't know how my Shep gets these fancy ideas though of merging synthetics and organics, but oh well. Must be subconscience playing a trick on her.

If it is an indoctrination attempt then you could see that the Catalyst is a reaper disguised trying to make Shepard think like they do. If he thinks he can control them then he already lost (just like TIM would). If he chooses synthesis, that means that he complies with the harvesting of species to turn them to reapers. Either way, his will to fight and destroy the reapers stops. Do remember that indoctrination is subtle until it's too late. So an indoctrinated Shepard would actually believe he can either control the reapers (TIM reference) or that the ultimate step in life is ascension through reapification (Saren).

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Tiax Rules All]

El Diablo wrote...

MassiveEffects wrote...

El Diablo wrote...

I once again have to present my problems with the Indoctrination theory. The gameplay perspective side of things. If your theory is true then that pretty much means that the developers are purposefully tricking the player.

"What you think this was a fair moral choise like all the other choises in the game? No lol. This was a test and if you didn't pick destroy you are to stupid succeed" Not very nice. A breach of the the trust contract made between developer and player.

plus getting the 4000+ to get shepard to live is EXTREMELY hard as
things are now without Multiplayer. So even if you are clever enough to
figure all that out chances are alot of people still can't get to a
decent, non game over, ending. such requirements are acceptable for a
super rewarding ending, but not for a basic decent victory for the
player.

Hallucinations are fine. making most of the players unable to win a game they paid for is not.

For the sake of playing the devil's advocate, Reaper indoctrination is one of the few cases in video games when I feel like that kind of "breach of the trust contract" sort of would make sense. After all, making the player feel like Shepard is a sort of extension of themself that they can use to express themselves and their ethics in this fictional universe is a big part of the Mass Effect series. So, if this being a hallucination was Bioware's intent (which I quite frankly doubt), then I think that breaching this "contract" was actually kind of appropriate.

The second half of your post I can get behind fully, however.

A fair point, I'd agree with if it was..telegraphed a bit better. Say as you approach the 'wrong' choise they make some ominous background sound plays like the reaper horn. Or hell a critical mission failure screen after you picked it with a reload right before the choise. 

The Hordes of the Underdark expansion pack for Neverwinter nights actually had something like that. but that involved mindflayers (who are well known for mind tricks) and in the vission there is some description that there is something not quite right.

Also not every shepard is out to 'Destroy the reapers' Mine was just out to bring and end to the war wether that the reapers needed to be destroyed for that or not.

Nobody ever really admits to being indoctrinated or truly feels it coming. I think you hints would have deminished the point for me.

[Lugaidster]

Nefelius wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Like it does make any sense?

Sure it does, every single piece fits perfectly. Go read the OP _without bias_ and you should be able to see it. Granted, there are many ways of assembling a puzzle. Like the OP said before, it's one of the benefits of an open ending. (I'm still hoping for closure though).

No it does not.

You are NOT indoctrinated since Prothean VI TWICE confirmed that.
You are NOT sleeping because you see "breathing" vid only in red option. 
Only in red option you are not disentigrated and just got hit by big kaboom, thus you could've survived.

you didnt read the OP, the game explains all of that.

*if you choose destroy, at no point is shepard ever indoctrinated. he has a FIGHT for indoctrination at the end, were you can win or lose. Harbinger was only able to affect sheps mind after he took the blast and was weakend mentally and physically.

* nobody is "sleeping" shep is knocked out/dying what have you and only by chosing destroy and breaking your indoctrination test do you ever get to "awake" from it.  not until you choose control or synthesis in the hallucination are ACTUALLY indoctrinated, but those choices solidify it, you were fooled by the reapers into comprimise and you lose your mind, never to awake at the end

* no kaboom actually happened, that was sheps subconscience imaging his victory, trying to set itself at ease before he dies (come back to life at last second with breath)

Prothean VI TWICE clearly sated Shep is NOT indoctrinated.

Sir, you are fanatic. i don't speak to fanatics. This exchange is over.

P.S. These theories are nothing but a product of denial stage.

Again, don't you see the flaw in your logic? Why would I indoctrinate you if you are already indoctrinated? The only possible answer is that you aren't, thus I will try to indoctrinate you. If you can't understand something as simple as that, then you have bigger issues.

One last attempt to explain it to you. If I'm going to try to indoctrinate you (meaning you are not still indoctrinated) why would the VI sense you're indoctrinated? The only possible explanation is that you are, indeed, not indoctrinated. Because of it, I will try to indoctrinate you. 

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 01:25 .

[BoneNinja]

R3MUS wrote...

The problem is not really the endings for me. But i want some kind of Dragon Age/Band of Brothers epilogue where there is at least a text or something that says what happened with the species, planets and my squadmates almost right after the ending.

I agree with this. I had no problem with the endings at all...except that it felt very incomplete. If this is the end of the story then...it should feel finished. None of the options available give you that. For better or worse, regardless of your GaW score, I just wanted the truth and to have a finality with it, and I just don't. I want to know what happened to my squadmates, all of them, not just those that rushed the end with me. I want to know what happened to all the fleets and species in the Sol System, all the universe left out there. It didn't have to even be shown, an epilogue paragraph would have sufficed. Now, IF they are planning a DLC of some kind that expands upon this (whether it gives new possible endings or just shows you through another characters eyes, like Aria taking back Omega, there would be ample opportunity there to explain what actually happened with the rest of the universe in the process) THEN I totally understand leaving the actual game ending vague and would happily sit back and wait. But right now, this is just what we're left with, players with a lot of invested time and love into these games and characters that have been told this is the finale...and it makes us panic. There's really two things everyone is thinking with this "This CAN'T be IT!?" and "MORE!" 

My request isn't to change the endings, regardless of whether the "it was all a dream" and "indoctrination" theories are true or not, my request of Bioware is to show us the truth, show us the true final to ALL the characters (Not just Thane, Legion and Mordrin) so that we have closure. If I have to mourn my Shepherd and  the love she'll never get to fully experience with her LI...then so be it, but at least TELL me what I should have as a final feeling here besides just utter confusion as to what was real and what wasn't, what the heck happened and what actually didn't.

On a simpler note, I have read MANY of the theories out there, and there are a lot about the indoctrination attempt theory as you present here, and credit to you for explaining it the best and most believable way I've seen. I'm not sure yet or not if I'm sold on the idea, but nicely presented. 

[Rawgrim]

The OP is correct. Destroy is the only choice that doesn`t do any damage to the reapers. Its also the choice that is made to look like a paragon choice (Anderson picking this one is a hint). The kid also offers very little explanation for this offer, mostly just breezing through it. The other two, wich ends with the reapers not being destroyed, is given a lengthy sales-pitch. classic manipulation.
Indoctrination is slow. It just kicks in full at the ending. The game has several signs of this happening earlier. Just one example here.


"-When Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone. Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control. "

[piemanz]

I prefer the idea that the end scene is really just Harbinger toying with Shep, and trying to make him/her bend to his will as a last small victory before he's oblitorated.

And that the crucible was actually a weapon to destroy the Reapers and was used by the fleet while shep was having his indoctrination moment.

It makes more sense because it means that the Reapers are defeated in all the endings, only one ending allows Shep to deny Harby his last small victory.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 mars 2012 - 01:26 .

[BDelacroix]

If this ending (its really only one) happened is just an indoctrination illusion, then we still get to lose despite all our efforts.

Among the things I find odd is we spend 2.9 games resisting the Reaper propaganda but at the end go ahead and accept what the kid has to say anyway.

Modifié par BDelacroix, 13 mars 2012 - 01:26 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Nefelius wrote...

Prothean VI TWICE clearly sated Shep is NOT indoctrinated.

Sir, you are fanatic. i don't speak to fanatics. This exchange is over.

P.S. These theories are nothing but a product of denial stage.

I think i this is the most expalined excuse on this thread. Shep is not indoctrinated at any point in the game. until POSSIBLY the end if you do not chose destroy. all VI meetings were just reg old shep.

Honestly this is pretty much beyond debating
the ending is an indoctrination ATTEMPT, how is this not understood?

[Gruzmog]

The problem I have with this theory is that while its possible, it does not make much sense. why would Harbinger not just kill Shepard, how does he survive a blast that destroys ships in one hit in the first place, and how does the crucible ever get to the citadel if all it takes is one shot from any capitalreaper ship to take it out.

So while the indoctrination theory is plausible, I find it highly unlikely. The entire premise of the final battle setup is flawed. If the reapers know what the crucible can do (since they were told by TIM) there is no way it would have worked, unless the fleet would have won the battle conventionally anyway. All they need is one shot to take it out, whats to stop them from just ignoring the fleet and going for it as soon as it appears?

If you disregard this, I hope you are right because the endings as they stand make no sense if it is true. As is pointed out by numereus posts. I don't mind Shep dying, I don't even care if we had to sacrifice earth. Aslong as the ending made logical sense and Shep stays true to himself during his sarcrifice.

Bonus points for staying in this thread though, most people just bail after saying once they liked the endings

EDIT: unless ofcourse the Reapers can use the crucible for thier purpose aswell in some way or form and they want it to dock. Then you might be absolutly right. Just havent seen that reason yet.

Modifié par Gruzmog, 13 mars 2012 - 01:28 .

[Smiley556]

Gruzmog wrote...

The problem I have with this theory is that while its possible, it does not make much sense. why would Harbinger not just kill Shepard, how does he survive a blast that destroys ships in one hit in the first place, and how does the crucible ever get to the citadel if all it takes is one shot from any capitalreaper ship to take it out.

So while the indoctrination theory is plausible, I find it highly unlikely. The entire premise of the final battle setup is flawed. If the reapers know what the crucible can do (since they were told by TIM) there is no way it would have worked, unless the fleet would have won the battle conventionally anyway. All they need is one shot to take it out, whats to stop them from just ignoring the fleet and going for it as soon as it appears?

If you disregard this, I hope you are right because the endings as they stand make no sense if it is true. As is pointed out by numereus posts. I don't mind Shep dying, I don't even care if we had to sacrifice earth. Aslong as the ending made logical sense and Shep stays true to himself during his sarcrifice.

Bonus points for staying in this thread though, most people just bail after saying once they liked the endings

Its no secret harbinger is trying to indoctrinate Shepard. Probably to make him a perfect agent like Saren was for the reapers before. And now here shepard lies before harbringer, weakened, unconcious. It would make no sense for Harbinger to suddenly go 'You know what, Ive been trying to indoctrinate him for so long and now is my perfect chance, but **** that lets blow him up instead now'.

[Rawgrim]

Gruzmog wrote...

The problem I have with this theory is that while its possible, it does not make much sense. why would Harbinger not just kill Shepard, how does he survive a blast that destroys ships in one hit in the first place, and how does the crucible ever get to the citadel if all it takes is one shot from any capitalreaper ship to take it out.

So while the indoctrination theory is plausible, I find it highly unlikely. The entire premise of the final battle setup is flawed. If the reapers know what the crucible can do (since they were told by TIM) there is no way it would have worked, unless the fleet would have won the battle conventionally anyway. All they need is one shot to take it out, whats to stop them from just ignoring the fleet and going for it as soon as it appears?

If you disregard this, I hope you are right because the endings as they stand make no sense if it is true. As is pointed out by numereus posts. I don't mind Shep dying, I don't even care if we had to sacrifice earth. Aslong as the ending made logical sense and Shep stays true to himself during his sarcrifice.

Bonus points for staying in this thread though, most people just bail after saying once they liked the endings

EDIT: unless ofcourse the Reapers can use the crucible for thier purpose aswell in some way or form and they want it to dock. Then you might be absolutly right. Just havent seen that reason yet.

This is why the War Assets plays a part in Shep waking up or not. Why would that be a factor if it all happens at the Citadel? Nobody is fighting there. But Shep`s body is laying on earth, in the middle of a warzone. So the reapers ARE trying to kill him. With enough War Assets, they are kept off him.

[Nefelius]

Lugaidster wrote...

Again, don't you see the flaw in your logic? Why would I indoctrinate you if you are already indoctrinated? The only possible answer is that you aren't, thus I will try to indoctrinate you. If you can't understand something as simple as that, then you have bigger issues.

One last attempt to explain it to you. If I'm going to try to indoctrinate you (meaning you are not still indoctrinated) why would the VI sense you're indoctrinated? The only possible explanation is that you are, indeed, not indoctrinated. Because of it, I will try to indoctrinate you. 

One last attempt from my side.

Since u all of a sudden decided that Habinja landed on Earth and thought " Hey! Why don't I try to indoctrinate Shepard, WHILE I'M TRYING TO DESINTEGRATE HIM TO ASH WITH THAT BIG RED LASER!"
So, following that logic of yours (that as no proof ingame beyond you imagination) i sayy Shep is not indoctrinated before that. And most importantly that crusible that they just built - there's a giant whie whale hidden in it. And giant white whales are poisonous to reapers. That's why He lands there and tries to prevent them of activating it.
See? How can't you understand that simple undeniable logic?

[Texhnolyze101]

Whats there to get? they suck ass.

[Tiax Rules All]

Gruzmog wrote...

The problem I have with this theory is that while its possible, it does not make much sense. why would Harbinger not just kill Shepard, how does he survive a blast that destroys ships in one hit in the first place, and how does the crucible ever get to the citadel if all it takes is one shot from any capitalreaper ship to take it out.

So while the indoctrination theory is plausible, I find it highly unlikely. The entire premise of the final battle setup is flawed. If the reapers know what the crucible can do (since they were told by TIM) there is no way it would have worked, unless the fleet would have won the battle conventionally anyway. All they need is one shot to take it out, whats to stop them from just ignoring the fleet and going for it as soon as it appears?

If you disregard this, I hope you are right because the endings as they stand make no sense if it is true. As is pointed out by numereus posts. I don't mind Shep dying, I don't even care if we had to sacrifice earth. Aslong as the ending made logical sense and Shep stays true to himself during his sarcrifice.

Bonus points for staying in this thread though, most people just bail after saying once they liked the endings

EDIT: unless ofcourse the Reapers can use the crucible for thier purpose aswell in some way or form and they want it to dock. Then you might be absolutly right. Just havent seen that reason yet.

I believe the war IS won conventionally or by the galactic fleet, Not necessarily without sheps help because the victory is the fact that you put this force together but shep doesnt actually kill the reapers per say.

basically, hes a legend because he united a galaxy not because he wrestled all the reapers to the ground himself. make sense? the details of how are lost, shep wasnt there to see them so he knows nothing about it. hes just living out his last heroic moments on earth. his (your) job is done...

[Rawgrim]

Nefelius wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Again, don't you see the flaw in your logic? Why would I indoctrinate you if you are already indoctrinated? The only possible answer is that you aren't, thus I will try to indoctrinate you. If you can't understand something as simple as that, then you have bigger issues.

One last attempt to explain it to you. If I'm going to try to indoctrinate you (meaning you are not still indoctrinated) why would the VI sense you're indoctrinated? The only possible explanation is that you are, indeed, not indoctrinated. Because of it, I will try to indoctrinate you. 

One last attempt from my side.

Since u all of a sudden decided that Habinja landed on Earth and thought " Hey! Why don't I try to indoctrinate Shepard, WHILE I'M TRYING TO DESINTEGRATE HIM TO ASH WITH THAT BIG RED LASER!"
So, following that logic of yours (that as no proof ingame beyond you imagination) i sayy Shep is not indoctrinated before that. And most importantly that crusible that they just built - there's a giant whie whale hidden in it. And giant white whales are poisonous to reapers. That's why He lands there and tries to prevent them of activating it.
See? How can't you understand that simple undeniable logic?

There are tons of clues about Shep being indoctrinated all through the game. Most likely is started with the events of Arrival.

[MaxShine]

While I will keep an open mind about the theory, it is far from being 100% convincing. But luckily time will tell quite soon if this is true or not.

[Nefelius]

Rawgrim wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Again, don't you see the flaw in your logic? Why would I indoctrinate you if you are already indoctrinated? The only possible answer is that you aren't, thus I will try to indoctrinate you. If you can't understand something as simple as that, then you have bigger issues.

One last attempt to explain it to you. If I'm going to try to indoctrinate you (meaning you are not still indoctrinated) why would the VI sense you're indoctrinated? The only possible explanation is that you are, indeed, not indoctrinated. Because of it, I will try to indoctrinate you. 

One last attempt from my side.

Since u all of a sudden decided that Habinja landed on Earth and thought " Hey! Why don't I try to indoctrinate Shepard, WHILE I'M TRYING TO DESINTEGRATE HIM TO ASH WITH THAT BIG RED LASER!"
So, following that logic of yours (that as no proof ingame beyond you imagination) i sayy Shep is not indoctrinated before that. And most importantly that crusible that they just built - there's a giant whie whale hidden in it. And giant white whales are poisonous to reapers. That's why He lands there and tries to prevent them of activating it.
See? How can't you understand that simple undeniable logic?

There are tons of clues about Shep being indoctrinated all through the game. Most likely is started with the events of Arrival.

Which are proved to be wrong by Prothean VI twice.

Modifié par Nefelius, 13 mars 2012 - 01:35 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Im sorry Nefilius, but i cant help you. You are not even the remote bit open minded enogh to be able to adjust your view of the ending. we have explained away your posts with supposrted in game facts and you are still just calling us delusional. Im done debating with you. You will never like the ending.

[Fidget6]

I think you (and the Youtube video) might be onto something, but still, if Bioware made this so unclear to the players that only a few managed to pick up on it, they have essentially still failed their fans. Also, the majority of people probably won't get the ending in the Youtube video, so for people like me, with it just ending with the relays getting destroyed, Shep dying, and the Normandy crashing, it's pretty much impossible to pick up on. I shouldn't have to do multiple playthroughs just to get and idea of what may possibly be going on. If it were some sort of side mission maybe that would be neat, but for the conclusion of a trilogy? Yikes......

Modifié par Fidget6, 13 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[El Diablo]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

El Diablo wrote...

MassiveEffects wrote...

For the sake of playing the devil's advocate, Reaper indoctrination is one of the few cases in video games when I feel like that kind of "breach of the trust contract" sort of would make sense. After all, making the player feel like Shepard is a sort of extension of themself that they can use to express themselves and their ethics in this fictional universe is a big part of the Mass Effect series. So, if this being a hallucination was Bioware's intent (which I quite frankly doubt), then I think that breaching this "contract" was actually kind of appropriate.

The second half of your post I can get behind fully, however.

A fair point, I'd agree with if it was..telegraphed a bit better. Say as you approach the 'wrong' choise they make some ominous background sound plays like the reaper horn. Or hell a critical mission failure screen after you picked it with a reload right before the choise. 

The Hordes of the Underdark expansion pack for Neverwinter nights actually had something like that. but that involved mindflayers (who are well known for mind tricks) and in the vission there is some description that there is something not quite right.

Also not every shepard is out to 'Destroy the reapers' Mine was just out to bring and end to the war wether that the reapers needed to be destroyed for that or not.

Nobody ever really admits to being indoctrinated or truly feels it coming. I think you hints would have deminished the point for me.

For you, perhaps. You are more observant then most i will assume, more observant then I surely. However as you admit in your Thread title. Alot of people did not "Get it". AI they were not observant enough to see the signs of Indoctrination (if they are there)

And the game was designed to be played and enjoyed by all those people, not just the smartest most observant ones. So if the challenge you described is suddenly thrown in at the end game with no similar  challenge being presented prior to this it is a bad design choise. 

It would be like the developer suddenly making the last boss fight of a turnbased game a FPS. 

[AlexXIV]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Gruzmog wrote...

The problem I have with this theory is that while its possible, it does not make much sense. why would Harbinger not just kill Shepard, how does he survive a blast that destroys ships in one hit in the first place, and how does the crucible ever get to the citadel if all it takes is one shot from any capitalreaper ship to take it out.

So while the indoctrination theory is plausible, I find it highly unlikely. The entire premise of the final battle setup is flawed. If the reapers know what the crucible can do (since they were told by TIM) there is no way it would have worked, unless the fleet would have won the battle conventionally anyway. All they need is one shot to take it out, whats to stop them from just ignoring the fleet and going for it as soon as it appears?

If you disregard this, I hope you are right because the endings as they stand make no sense if it is true. As is pointed out by numereus posts. I don't mind Shep dying, I don't even care if we had to sacrifice earth. Aslong as the ending made logical sense and Shep stays true to himself during his sarcrifice.

Bonus points for staying in this thread though, most people just bail after saying once they liked the endings

EDIT: unless ofcourse the Reapers can use the crucible for thier purpose aswell in some way or form and they want it to dock. Then you might be absolutly right. Just havent seen that reason yet.

I believe the war IS won conventionally or by the galactic fleet, Not necessarily without sheps help because the victory is the fact that you put this force together but shep doesnt actually kill the reapers per say.

basically, hes a legend because he united a galaxy not because he wrestled all the reapers to the ground himself. make sense? the details of how are lost, shep wasnt there to see them so he knows nothing about it. hes just living out his last heroic moments on earth. his (your) job is done...

Well they already admitted that they have no way to beat the Reapers in a conventional battle. They need the Conduit Crucible. And if nobody reached the 'transport beam' up in the Citadel, they are screwed.