Most of these points are again about closure to the story and can quickly be argued with the fact that, as repeated many times, and very clearly hinted at by bioware in the 'bonus' scenes, the story is indeed not over yet.
As for the slow indoctrination process, Shepard has most definatly been exposed to indoctrination, mostly as seen in Awakening. And the fact that shepard is suffering from the symptoms of being indoctrinated is made clear throughout the game. In the codex it is stated inoctrination can be fast or slow, which affects the end result.nowhere does it state that it Has to be a very slow process, just that a slow process is prefered.
The problem then becomes how does one interpret an ending to a game that isn't complete and a stand alone product? I actually don't care if they add DLC to improve the terrible ending and rather hope they do, but trying to jusdge this theory as being correct based on the assumption that something new is coming out is a very hard sell.
But how does that make sense? Indoctrination should have lowered his resolve to defeat the Reapers which clearly isn't the case. Also, why didn't the Prothean AI detect the indoctrination? It seems very heavy handed to say that he was indoctrinated at the last second. At the very best this is a very tight fit of an explanation, at the worst it just doesn't make sense based on what was experienced in game.
first of all OP you are stating this as a fact which it clearly isn't. It is a decent theory but still has holes and doesnt provide any closure so its still irrelevant.
oh really i havent been accused of that during this thread yet. Still im gonna have to dissagree with you. I do believe this to be the ending as intended. but i have also stated that even if this is not the indended view of the ending, It will be MY view of the ending, because I can plug EVERY plot hole with it. because shep "wakes up" at the end of the perfect ending and well im not going to re-write the OP.
and its absolutely not irrelevant in fact i think its MORE relevant. if the ending is not over. and shep is still alive in the rubble of london, then the story CAN and almost HAS TO go on. You dont think thats relevant? I cant think of anything more relevant.
Upcoming DLC is not really in the OP but talked about much in the thread.
Except that isn't the "perfect" ending according to the leaked script which calls the Synergy ending the perfect ending according to them and also doesn't mention indoctrination at all at the end though it has the conversations with TIM and the Guardian. Synergy is also the last ending you get, meaning they intended it to be the special one. It goes Destroy, Control then Synergy based on your EMS. I wasn't able to get Synergy on my first play through though I could do Destroy and Control.
The waking up scene proves nothing either as you can't even tell where Shep is let alone deduce something from it. The game also goes through pains to show what is in Shep's head and what isn't. Flashbacks clearly are. The dreams clearly are. The sequences showing the magic light show and the Normandy are not shot in hazy slo-mo and show no indication of not actually happening.
If the child was the form that the "slow-burn" indoctrination took, then the Protehan VI would have detected it. Indoctrination can't be turned on and off like that.
Just becuase DLC is coming it doesnt mean its going to be an expansion on the ending. I highly doubt they would go and say one ending is right ect. and play off of that. DLC could very well be missions for during the game, not after the ending
The OP doesn't get it. It's a single ending with about 30 seconds of added footage between the different choices and a flashy color.
THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE COMPLETE. It's supposed to be the ENDING of the trilogy, then end of it all. So we have two options: Either THAT was the true ending in which case it is the worst ending in entertainment media EVER. OR that was "an indoctrination" in which case BioWare sold us an incomplete game that lacks the true ending and is therefore ripping us off. It's like if you bought Mass Effect 2 and finished it but you had to buy the Suicide Mission as DLC because "that is the true ending". Let me ask you which one is even worse? Think about it.
It's like buying Assassin's Creed II and then having to buy the whole Vatican/Rome mission to kill Rodrigo Borgia because if not you won't see Minerva at the end. The SAME thing is what you're suggesting. We finish ME3 and see that pathetic excuse for an ending just to have BioWare tell us "Oh sorry we ruined the whole series for you, here, buy this 15 dollar DLC so you can see the true ending that SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE DISK FROM THE BEGINNING."
It's one thing having a Prothean as DLC, that is ok with me, I don't care about day one DLC, but withholding a part of the story, THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the story for that matter, to sell it later? That is just unacceptable.
i know this is gonna come off as wrong sounding but.. who says? you? all these things you are demanding/expecting Bioware can tell you that ME3 is the end and then make a ME4, they may be big fibbers but they can do that if they damn well please. So if they want to put and ending in dlc or expantion. Think extended ending like dragon age awakenings, they will do that. anyways if you love ME so much wouldnt you want more? the story should be done when its done, not just beause this is game 3 and cool series' only come in 3's...
I accept that some choose to not believe the Indoctrination theory, but no matter what you choose, paragon, synthesis or renegade you still get to see the old man and the kid (if you had enough EMS points). The kid asks the old man "Can you tell me another story about the Shepard?" The old man answers "It's getting late... But okay, one more story"
Don't you get it? BioWare have tricked us, Shepard's story isn't over yet, the trilogy might be over, but Shepard is not!
Maybe he will tell him about the slavers or something. Its not conclusive.
Also the "can you tell me another story" would imply a concusion to the current story. For some reason, assuming indoctrination, I dont forsee this being realistic. "In the charge to save the galaxy he failed and got blown to s*** by a lazer" "SWEET STORY GRANDPA, TELL ME MORE ABOUT HIM"
Shepard sure got blown up, but he/she was still alive enough to hallucinate about the Citadel, Anderson, TIM, the three choices, his/her crew and the Normandy getting stranded at a safe place and then manage to wake up. I think we should not rule out that Shepard might have survived until proven otherwise.
there were supposed to be multiple endings giving a unique experience.
you claim that there's only 1 true ending.
therefore, Bioware lied.
To be fair, he's stating that the endings haven't been revealed yet. So that statement hasn't still been proven true or false until Bioware makes a declaration.
well i created and stayed with this thread for 20 pages, need to sleep. Hope this thread has survived and is still in decent shape when i get back. Keep it classy BSN,
I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.
I hope to make a complete and easy explanation of the ending, comment if you think I need to adjust or add to it. This post does not apply to those who just don't like it because of its lack of detailed epilogue.
First of all there is one ending that is the real ending and all other endings are tricks and illusions. In fact the only REAL ending in the whole game is if you pick the destroy option with over 4000 assets. The real ending is only that 20 seconds they show of Shepard in the rubble and then takes a breath.
That (supposed to be) eye opening moment is supposed to tell you that Shepard was never on the Citadel. He lies just where he was knocked out by the destroyer blast, in the rubble of London. This is where the confusion takes place.
Everything that happens after the destroyer hits Shepard during his charge is a combination of a dying Shepard's hallucinations and reaper indoctrination trying to take over. Right after the blast, Shepard wakes with his armor half blown off. This is not just cut scene fubar, this is the start of his indoctrination fight when everything is slightly off, as in a dream (because it is)
If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.
After he reaches the Citadel there is more oddness that should be setting off triggers for the player that something is not right, that this is an illusion... Anderson describes shifting walls and only ever agrees with Shep on his surroundings after Shep describes his and saying "like the collector base you described". Everything is just a projection from Shepard's mind and subconscious.
When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.
There are more allusions to not trusting Cerberus/reapers throughout the game as well. You really start to see them after you understand the indoctrination ending. For example: TIM talking to Kai Lang says "Shepard was always going to stay true to his ideals" subtlety suggesting that the player should do the same and not let TIM/reapers compromise you destroying the reapers. The goal you have had since the very beginning. Also before the attack on Cerberus base I believe, there is a quantum comm. call between you and Hackett. You have the option of saying something like "what if TIM is right and the reapers CAN be controlled" and Hackett shoots you down. Gives you a direct order to kill TIM and destroy reapers. No questions asked. Once again, game trying to remind you of the one true goal and keep you focused.
Now about the Catalyst and the crucible conversation and decision itself... By this time indoctrination is very close to taking over. The end is near. The catalyst looks like the little boy because of shep's subconscious and indoctrination is feeding off that. Everything in this scene is A LIE. The choices and how they are presented to you are all part of the deception to get Shepard to give his mind into indoctrination and lose the will to fight it.
You are presented first with the destroy option. He says "I KNOW you have been thinking of destroying us but..." The catalyst is scared, knows that its only chance is to manipulate Shepard here and now. It's painted in renegade red to through you off. This is purposefully done to manipulate Shepard's decision to fight. He tells you all synthetic life will be wiped out, including Geth and including Shepard because he is partially cybernetic himself. In sales you always present the worst option first and the best for last. So the next 2 options can then be presented and made more appealable.
the other 2 options do not let you ever see Shepard "alive" at the end so to me BOTH of these options are fails and result in you being indoctrinated and/or dying right there on the streets of London. Without that last breath scene. There can be no happy ending. I will elaborate on them a bit more separately.
Synthesis was in the middle and last option presented, this is what they ultimately want. He even likened the synthesis to husks in his description. The reapers want to harvest organics and change them into hybrids. By choosing synthesis you would be doing their work for them in an instant. Basically I see this as total fail ending, you have been played.
Now the control option was not presented as prominently as the synthesis but was still painted in paragon blue and offered as an option still better then destroy. In the end the result for choosing this is the same behind the scenes. Shepard gave into indoctrination/death and you do not get the breath tidbit.
So if you choose destroy like I believe we are somewhat intended to, remember that the explosion cut scene and relays exploding and Normandy running/crashing ALL OF THAT IS STILL HALLUCINATION. This is Shepard's subconscious imagining a "happy ending" he imagines reapers destroyed, earth fighters celebrating, and he imagines and ending for companions. The lush new planet-scape is just a metaphor for starting over and them being at peace. That's why immediately after they show Shep waking up, to solidify the dream idea.
At that point you are supposed to start thinking about what really happened. Shepard is alive, on Earth, has conquered indoctrination. Another HUGE thing is that after destroying the reapers you were supposed to be dead. Recalling the little boy "you will die as you are partly synthetic". When you wake up after that in the rubble, it should be a clear indication that you have been lied to. You did not die like the boy said you would, he just said that to dissuade you. The rest is left even more ambiguous but...
I personally believe that Shepard's job ended there. His companions who followed him at the last rush are dead beside him not suddenly on the Normandy and suddenly in a new system living happily ever after. That only happens in dreams He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.
Love it or hate it, I whole heartedly believe that we will see DLC in the future that will start with Shepard taking that breath in the rubble. It will be something like Waking up after beating indoctrination and actually concluding the story in a more definitive way. And possibly a lot more "happy" though I'm more interested in "real" then some contrived happiness.
TL;DR (oh come on read above, its good 2 parts, first everything that happens between Shepard getting hit by the destroyer eye blast during the London charge and the "take a breath" scene (that you only get by choosing correct choices and having high enough EMF) Is a hallucination/indoctrination process that Shepard is fighting in his head.
There is only one real ending, the ending you have been groomed for since the beginning. Destroy the reapers at all costs. All other endings that do not have Shepard alive at the end are lies. They are illusions and means that Shepard gave into indoctrination and never awoke back on earth to realize this. And the player doesn't understand.
All the supposed plot holes can be explained by this. See examples above. Ask me questions if you have them, I will try to clarify for you in comments.
Also if you would rather watch 3 minutes of youtube, this is a rather good but not totally complete ending explaination. I approve
FINAL NOTE I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.
If you're right about this, than that means that Bioware intended to 'sell' us our ending in the DLC all along. Which would ****** me off more than them just making a bad ending.
It would mean, instead of giving us an ending they thought was good, they purposefully made it unclear so they could turn an extra profit by selling us what should have been included in the game in the first place.
By that i mean, confirmation that Shepard was being indoctrinated after you've made the choice. I think the very fact that you HAVE to think and conjecture so much about the ending means that it wasnt very well done. Endings should be portrayed in a way so that it can be understood by everyone.
I think by the amount of people who are upset about the ends, bioware failed in that aspect, and therefore failed in writing their ending, whether your speculation is true or not.
The OP doesn't get it. It's a single ending with about 30 seconds of added footage between the different choices and a flashy color.
THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE COMPLETE. It's supposed to be the ENDING of the trilogy, then end of it all. So we have two options: Either THAT was the true ending in which case it is the worst ending in entertainment media EVER. OR that was "an indoctrination" in which case BioWare sold us an incomplete game that lacks the true ending and is therefore ripping us off. It's like if you bought Mass Effect 2 and finished it but you had to buy the Suicide Mission as DLC because "that is the true ending". Let me ask you which one is even worse? Think about it.
It's like buying Assassin's Creed II and then having to buy the whole Vatican/Rome mission to kill Rodrigo Borgia because if not you won't see Minerva at the end. The SAME thing is what you're suggesting. We finish ME3 and see that pathetic excuse for an ending just to have BioWare tell us "Oh sorry we ruined the whole series for you, here, buy this 15 dollar DLC so you can see the true ending that SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE DISK FROM THE BEGINNING."
It's one thing having a Prothean as DLC, that is ok with me, I don't care about day one DLC, but withholding a part of the story, THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the story for that matter, to sell it later? That is just unacceptable.
THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE COMPLETE. <- THIS is an assumption
@ OP Nobody finds your posting useful at all. We do not need to be educated all by a knowitall that you pretend to be. People are allowed their own opinuons and they do not need an indoctrinated trying to make excuse for endings. Let them form their own opinions please.
I accept that some choose to not believe the Indoctrination theory, but no matter what you choose, paragon, synthesis or renegade you still get to see the old man and the kid (if you had enough EMS points). The kid asks the old man "Can you tell me another story about the Shepard?" The old man answers "It's getting late... But okay, one more story"
Don't you get it? BioWare have tricked us, Shepard's story isn't over yet, the trilogy might be over, but Shepard is not!
Maybe he will tell him about the slavers or something. Its not conclusive.
Also the "can you tell me another story" would imply a concusion to the current story. For some reason, assuming indoctrination, I dont forsee this being realistic. "In the charge to save the galaxy he failed and got blown to s*** by a lazer" "SWEET STORY GRANDPA, TELL ME MORE ABOUT HIM"
Shepard sure got blown up, but he/she was still alive enough to hallucinate about the Citadel, Anderson, TIM, the three choices, his/her crew and the Normandy getting stranded at a safe place and then manage to wake up. I think we should not rule out that Shepard might have survived until proven otherwise.
ok one more...
shepard is not dead. but dying, and only by choosing correctly will you ever see him "wake up"
answer me this.. why would bioware show shep alive, still on earth, in rubble, if not to say "it was all in his head" I mean this honestly. Why would they award you with a live shepard on only the hardest to achieve of endings if not planned that way to show you the facts. I men alot can be taken from that small tidbit. namely: *shep is not dead * shep is clearly (its not fact but come on) not on the citadel, he is in the rubble of london. compare the rubble with both scenes.. It the citadel made of grey stone bricks? I think not. Was london? umm yes. everything was grey and stone. Just go look for yourself. Don't even try telling me that he WAS on the citadel on now he is blown back to earth or some BS. It is clear that. This is made to be an eye opening moment that flips your perception around.
I've read a bit of these posts today and wanted to chime in. I rarely post on any forums, but after the finishing ME3, I felt compeled to come here and find some closure, as it was not provided by the game at all.
I have read about the indoctrination theory and I wholly reject it. If that is what BioWare was going to angle at, they would have spend proper time developing that part of the story. They didn't. Shepard was never in any danger of indoctrination throughout the series so why start in the last 20 minutes of game play?
When I played thru the first time, my take was that indeed my unit was decimated while rushing the stream, but in battle there is chaos and misinformation. My two comrades may have survived, but I had no time to search for them. My only goal was to enter the stream and get to the Citadel. That part of the game worked well for me.
Once inside, finding Anderson inside also was plausible. He entered before I did. As for the radio chatter, those are reports from observers at a distance, they could not see that 2 of us made it into the stream. Not uncommon in real life battles to not have 100% accurate field status.
During the discussion with TIM, I chose to save Anderson, the fact that it was a "renegade" option I shrugged off as a programmer bug. Same with the kill option for the ninja man in TIM's base earlier in the game. I found quite a few glitches and bugs in the game up to this point. I don't think it was meant to be this way. It should have been Paragon.
With me and Anderson sitting side-by-side and talking, that should have been the end of the game. Maybe a cutscene or two showing the destruction of the reapers. I remember at that point saying, "damn this is good." about the ending. Just need to see a few cutscenes showing what happened to the reapers and my squad mates. BioWare did a good job.
Then it all went wrong... I was presented with a mishmash of unplausible explainations, the child catalyst, the false statements about the nature of the reapers and organic life, it was just a god aweful mess. It seemed so detached from the rest of the story up until that point, it reminded me of an old movie call "2001: A Space Odyssey". Anyway, the ending just doesn't make sense. I get the feeling that there was some internal struggle in BioWare about how to end the story and they came up with some strange compromise that pleased noone. Least of which the customers.
This isn't the first story, whether it be in books, games, or movies that had such great story telling but fell flat on it's face at the end and it won't be the last. It's just a shame that it went down like this. This ending will prevent the franchise from going down in history as one of the best. It will take it's place as a good franchise, but fell short.
If you're right about this, than that means that Bioware intended to 'sell' us our ending in the DLC all along. Which would ****** me off more than them just making a bad ending.
It would mean, instead of giving us an ending they thought was good, they purposefully made it unclear so they could turn an extra profit by selling us what should have been included in the game in the first place.
By that i mean, confirmation that Shepard was being indoctrinated after you've made the choice. I think the very fact that you HAVE to think and conjecture so much about the ending means that it wasnt very well done. Endings should be portrayed in a way so that it can be understood by everyone.
I think by the amount of people who are upset about the ends, bioware failed in that aspect, and therefore failed in writing their ending, whether your speculation is true or not.
imagine a dlc comes out soon. The intro to it either plays through or describes that what you saw at the end of ME3 was a hallucination / indoctrination sequence (like i describe in OP) Just imagine that this is released and that this is in fact, FACT.
Will you then feel any different. I think only explaining it during intro of DLC makes sense, not blatently telling you "please insert DLC for ending" If they told you with no ambiquity that its not over, then there is no magic and only rage ensues. instead you have to be creative. It will be a "gotcha" twist moment for both the ending of ME3 AND the beginning of the DLC.
Marketing is not nice. its black and white, do what sells and make money. Present as skewed as an arguement for your side and sell sell sell. They way to get the most money, purchases of dlc, will be to follow the path they are on currently. It may be evil, but they know what they are doing.
@ OP Nobody finds your posting useful at all. We do not need to be educated all by a knowitall that you pretend to be. People are allowed their own opinuons and they do not need an indoctrinated trying to make excuse for endings. Let them form their own opinions please.
Why are you posting unuseful stuff then? Move on troll!
if they told you that the other choices ended in indoctrination would you have picked them? uhh no. and there would be no magic there. no mystery, you wouldn't have to actually search you morals and goals that you have established for 3 games (kill reapers) reapers would have no chance to "fool" you cause the player would not experience it real time. you would know your choice before it was presented
Tiax Rules All wrote... If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.
I didn't really thought about the ending not being real during playing but I remember that I noticed this and wondered what the hell they were talking about.
The more details about the endings are discovered, the more likely this indoctrination theory becomes. It just fits way too good into all the alleged plot holes.
Fan fic does not make an actual ending. It's not like people are 'stupid' and not 'getting' the ending.
It's that the ending is non-existing. Choosing a color; red/green/blue and seeing the same cut-scene in a story/choice driven game - even without a Bioware stable feature; the epilogue - sorry, there's not much to 'get'.
People can speculate all they want - it's much more a syndrom of poor story telling that you have to invent your own ending. People tried to do it with KOTOR2 for example.
Either a) Bioware wants to open up for DLC/Expansion/ME4 to explain things in or they wrote themselves into a corner and had no way out or c) they rushed the ending and just ripped off Deus Ex to put something in there or d) they genuinely think it's a good ending.
I don't know which is worst.
I was in love with ME3 until the end. I didn't care for 'day one DLC' or any such things.
Now it has even ruined ME1 and ME2 for me because it didn't matter if I saved person X, if I saved race Y, if I killed of race Z.
All that matters was .... do you want red tinted scene or blue or green.
Ce sujet est fermé
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He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.
they wrote themselves into a corner and had no way out or c) they rushed the ending and just ripped off Deus Ex to put something in there or d) they genuinely think it's a good ending.
