1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Tiax Rules All]

Zhijn wrote...

The indoctrination theory is very likely true, but it dosnt change anything about the ending since there was no end. You never fought off the reapers, you never "won" or "failed" the fight. All you did was either beat indoctrination or not.

Which to me seems like that sort of story element should have been befor an actually ending to a trilogy. Having that as our ending make no sens. Was ME1 > ME2 > ME3 journey just about Shepard beating indoctrination?. Hell no it wasnt. Might have played its part but no thats noway to end this game.

all games had 2 plots
the main over arching "destroy the reapers"
and "kill Saren and geth" in ME1
"kill collectors and defeat harbinger" in ME3
and "conquer indoctrination" in ME3

this is not crazy by any means. Indoctrination is talked about since early ME1, we should be able to recognise it, but i guess we are not all smart enough. Bioware you need to dumb down the ending, dont be myserious or deep just give us blue babies and text epilogue slideshows. We wont be as frieghtended ny that.

[Oron345]

Amazing post, OP. I agree with what you're saying, I dislike the idea of having to buy DLC to find out what really happened though.

[Wattoes]

This sums it up best.

"It's a popular theory. But even if this is true, it is still far away from what the fans expected, were promised or deserved.

First, even if the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory is correct, it is far too ambiguous on its own. The fact that it took a time and the collective work of many fans to make it fit in properly suggests that, if it is the truth, it was not presented well enough to be entirely convincing - save for those clutching at straws. This is poor story-telling."

[thegoldfinch]

I really hope this is true. I really do. It's too perfect not to be.

I mean, that is god damn ballsy move. I still want more closure but it sounds like more is coming, anyway. We'll see.

[Soilworker77]

Capeo wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
ok one more...

shepard is not dead. but dying, and only by choosing correctly will you ever see him "wake up"

answer me this.. why would bioware show shep alive, still on earth, in rubble, if not to say "it was all in his head" I mean this honestly. Why would they award you with a live shepard on only the hardest to achieve of endings if not planned that way to show you the facts. I men alot can be taken from that small tidbit.
namely:
*shep is not dead
* shep is clearly (its not fact but come on) not on the citadel, he is in the rubble of london. compare the rubble with both scenes.. It the citadel made of grey stone bricks? I think not. Was london? umm yes. everything was grey and stone. Just go look for yourself.
Don't even try telling me that he WAS on the citadel on now he is blown back to earth or some BS. It is clear that. This is made to be an eye opening moment that flips your perception around.

Again, nope.  If that shot was supposed to mean Shep was back on earth then they could have shown an Earth skyline.  Even if you take it as Earth all that means is Shep made it back to the teleport beam or, most likely, it's just and Easter Egg with little thought put into it. 

And again, you keep ignoring the script and the order the endings are unlocked.  Destroy, Control then Synergy.  The script specifically states Synergy is the "perfect" ending.  You also ignore the epilogue which shows, without a doubt, that the Reapers were taken care of and the Relays are destroyed.  This epilogue plays no matter what ending you choose.

When I was at Earth I had Garrus and Javik with me.
After Shepard had got hit by that Reaper laser and Shepard hallucinated about the Citadel, Garrus must then have turned head over heels to get to the closest shuttle to get back on the Normandy so they then could escape from Earth without any reason.
Becuase during the epilogue Garrus steps out of the stranded Normandy.
Why would Garrus run and why would Joker flee with the Normandy?
Garrus ain't that kind of turian, he would have stood his ground and fought the Reapers nor would Joker have fled with the Normandy.

Shepard never got to the beam, he/she was knocked out by the Reaper laser, then hallucinating about the whole Citadel thing while being under Reaper influence.
The epilogue is just how Shepard wanted his/her crew's fate to be.
And then he/she wakes up in the rubble of London.

[JrSlackin]

I can see this, I'm opened up to everyone's opinions on the endings and I've been trying to grasp at what could be the possibilities.

Seems as though the debate on the endings is almost like who shot first Han or Greedo.

I do have one big issue with this whole theory and that's mainly saying, "the hint at DLC to finish the ending". I know Fallout 3 did this same very thing, so who knows, other then Bioware.

[Tiax Rules All]

merc1less wrote...

wans't there a scene with TIM where Shepard got headaches (black something at the edges of the screen)?

yes, and that scene also shows you the power of it. It there to warn you AGAIN do not be indoctrinated!
It will make you do things you would NEVER do. You will shoot best friends and and never know how bad you got it, likeTIM, nobody knows they are indoctrinated, or would like to admit it. They all think they are fine. they justify indoctrination away.

whole scene was a "here comes the indoctrination choice!!" moment that some claim they never got. Once again abiguous yes. but cant deny that its there.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 05:33 .

[Ryan546]

Smiley556 wrote...

Ryan546 wrote...

@ Smiley & OP. I think you are both drawing conclusions from highly ambiguous details and then try to call them facts. it is a THEORY. And when DLC comes out it will either be before the ending or a new ending. Bioware would not claim that one ending is right. Think what you will, doesn't mean it is right

If you can present me with a better explenation by all means, we would love to hear it. And not the god kid space magic one, cos thats just fairytale retatarded.

The ending is on the disc, its just unsatisfactory.  I will repost my problems with this theory since they were never addressed

Edit: The biggest problem is that the catalyst does not say that Shepard will die w/o his tech, he would most likely survive but have limited functions. the boy just mentions this to show how tech is already intergrated into the system.

In the citadel the walls could have moved allowing anderson to get ahead of you. You interpreted the ambigousness in a certain way and presented it as fact.

Also when coats says that nobody made it shepard was still down so it is a valid assumption that coats just didnt see him and/or anderson get up.

All in all nothing matters besides the fact that it was a poorly put together ending no matter how you look at it. It provided no closure and took away the importance of all your choices. hopefully it will somehow get patched/ DLC

This series wasn't supposed to end like 2001: A Space Oddyssey with an ending open for translation, it worked very well for that movie but the series demanded closure, your choices playing out and finality.

And OP, stop insisting there is going to be post game DLC with your character having made that choice. it won't happen

Modifié par Ryan546, 13 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[MedhiaNox]

The only way I would have given Bioware any credit for this concept - is if they had announced prior to this that:

"Due to the epic nature of Mass Effect 3 - there will be a conclusion to the title, but it will not be a conclusion to the series. DLC or a full expansion will follow drawing the final conclusions to Shepard's tale."

Now - whether it is true or not - it would seem just like backtracking after receiving a mountain sized load of criticism.

[prizm123]

interesting theory OP, i read it all, sounds plausible....

what would really blow people's minds is if the real ending after the breath scene was patched in later because Bioware didn't want it spoiled right away.... or have the countless Youtube videos of it....

[JeffZero]

Smiley556 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/9872108&lf=8
Nuf said

I'm still reluctant to take that as anything official.

But you cant deny it as a hint to support it. Ofcourse it could be coincidence he picked this thread, but its worth stating.

Mr. Woo isn't a developer. He's a community mod. Like Mr. Priestly and Ms. Merizan, his thoughts are just that - thoughts.

[Smiley556]

Ryan546 wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Ryan546 wrote...

@ Smiley & OP. I think you are both drawing conclusions from highly ambiguous details and then try to call them facts. it is a THEORY. And when DLC comes out it will either be before the ending or a new ending. Bioware would not claim that one ending is right. Think what you will, doesn't mean it is right

If you can present me with a better explenation by all means, we would love to hear it. And not the god kid space magic one, cos thats just fairytale retatarded.

The ending is on the disc, its just unsatisfactory.  I will repost my problems with this theory since they were never addressed

The ending on the disc is exactly what is explained in the OP.  I dont see your point. There is not allot of evidence that points in any other direction than the OP's explenation.

[dkear1]

As the ending to a epic trilogy it plain sucked! Period. Full Stop. If people have to rationalize it then guess what, it doesn't work! This game has always been about choices and consequences and they (the dev's) promised that all loose ends would be wrapped up and that the ending would NOT be a LOST. People do have more questions than answers so quite clearly they either lied or failed.

That you do try to come up with reasons is fine and noble and your right but to think that others should buy them or be content with them is not. I feel like we were baited and switched. What was wrong with having an ending mission similar to ME2? This was supposed to be the fight to retake earth not some freaking narrow minded god child that rail roads you into the best of 3 lousy options.

The outcry is because they tried to get cute and that is not what the series has been about and clearly NOT what the majority of fans wanted either. Save the m night shyamalan stuff for a game/movie that fits cause it doesn't with this IMHO.

And as legion999 said, "what about closure?" - I sure don't see any at all!!!

Modifié par dkear1, 13 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Soilworker77 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
ok one more...

shepard is not dead. but dying, and only by choosing correctly will you ever see him "wake up"

answer me this.. why would bioware show shep alive, still on earth, in rubble, if not to say "it was all in his head" I mean this honestly. Why would they award you with a live shepard on only the hardest to achieve of endings if not planned that way to show you the facts. I men alot can be taken from that small tidbit.
namely:
*shep is not dead
* shep is clearly (its not fact but come on) not on the citadel, he is in the rubble of london. compare the rubble with both scenes.. It the citadel made of grey stone bricks? I think not. Was london? umm yes. everything was grey and stone. Just go look for yourself.
Don't even try telling me that he WAS on the citadel on now he is blown back to earth or some BS. It is clear that. This is made to be an eye opening moment that flips your perception around.

Again, nope.  If that shot was supposed to mean Shep was back on earth then they could have shown an Earth skyline.  Even if you take it as Earth all that means is Shep made it back to the teleport beam or, most likely, it's just and Easter Egg with little thought put into it. 

And again, you keep ignoring the script and the order the endings are unlocked.  Destroy, Control then Synergy.  The script specifically states Synergy is the "perfect" ending.  You also ignore the epilogue which shows, without a doubt, that the Reapers were taken care of and the Relays are destroyed.  This epilogue plays no matter what ending you choose.

When I was at Earth I had Garrus and Javik with me.
After Shepard had got hit by that Reaper laser and Shepard hallucinated about the Citadel, Garrus must then have turned head over heels to get to the closest shuttle to get back on the Normandy so they then could escape from Earth without any reason.
Becuase during the epilogue Garrus steps out of the stranded Normandy.
Why would Garrus run and why would Joker flee with the Normandy?
Garrus ain't that kind of turian, he would have stood his ground and fought the Reapers nor would Joker have fled with the Normandy.

Shepard never got to the beam, he/she was knocked out by the Reaper laser, then hallucinating about the whole Citadel thing while being under Reaper influence.
The epilogue is just how Shepard wanted his/her crew's fate to be.
And then he/she wakes up in the rubble of London.

Spot on. you dont have to LIKE it. but thats what was presented

[Leafs43]

People who are mad understand the endings a little too well.

The endings were nothing more than copy and pasted from Deus Ex....literally.


And then when players are mad about this, and all the plot holes that comes with the ends, you call them stupid.

[Tiax Rules All]

MedhiaNox wrote...

The only way I would have given Bioware any credit for this concept - is if they had announced prior to this that:

"Due to the epic nature of Mass Effect 3 - there will be a conclusion to the title, but it will not be a conclusion to the series. DLC or a full expansion will follow drawing the final conclusions to Shepard's tale."

Now - whether it is true or not - it would seem just like backtracking after receiving a mountain sized load of criticism.

but then they cant have dramatic unveiling right as everyone is about to shelf the game. They wanted to blow your mind but I can be seen as in a sense spoiling it...

[jef379]

 When I finished the game, I thought of indoctrination, but I was not sure. After reading this, I'm am. Two things set off alarm bells in my head. First, Shepard survives. Nobody survives being in the middle of a gigantic explosion, a fall through a vacuum, then a re-entry in the atmosphere (with a tremendous speed since there is no terminal velocity in space) and an impact on the ground (and rubble, just try falling on the corner of a concrete bloc from a few feet. Now from miles). It is impossible. It happened at the beginning of ME2, and we learn that we were reduced to mostly a puddle. Second, Kaidan's face when he got out of the Normandy on that jungle planet. My ManShep romanced him, yet he had a dreamy and happy face, despite losing almost everything.

My guess is that Harbinger tries to indoctrinate you when you see those black ... things around the screen when you talk to TIM (maybe he served as a medium to indoctrinate Shepard somehow, and it made the indoctrination stronger ? Just throwing something out, it's probably just  because you were almost dead). If you have low EMS, he dosen't even interfere with your dream, because you didn't do all you could to prepare, you're weak-willed. If you have medium EMS (two options), he puts in the control option as a security, just in case that you might break free with the destroy one, which dosen't happen. With high EMS, he does everything he can to stop you, tries to mess up your dream to stop you from choosing the destroy one (which, I think, is the "canon" one). EMS is really a number that demonstrates your will.

And maybe it wasn't what Bioware intended (even if I find it unlikely), maybe they just wanted to leave it open but failed to do so. At any rate, they don't have anything to lose now. Their best choice is to go with our theory. The BSN is boiling right now, and anything beats ''we screwed up'', especially when it all makes sense and would transform them (to my eyes) into geniuses. It would be mind-blowing, indoctrinating the player.

It dosen't have to be fully explained or crystal clear, that is the whole point of indoctrination, making you think you are right.

If they don't do anything however, I will be disappointed. Mass Effect needs closure, and the indoctrination theory is the best way to do so.

Edit : Let's also add to the list of unsurvivable things the fact that most synthetics in Shepard's body would be destroyed. Whether they explode or stop working is irrelevant, since Shepard cannot live without those. They are everywhere within him down to even his cells.

Modifié par jef379, 13 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[Prism]

I would actually be surprised if "this" ending was supposed to be so subtle. If that's the case... well then, kudos. If not, but they use it as a scenario to expand the ending through dlc, it would be quite acceptable. The only problem is with how it handles the EMS.

[dkear1]

As to the indoctrination theory, I have to admit it is a good one. However, to end the game like that has got to be the biggest mistake that a gaming company has ever made. Besides, if this was the case, I hardly think that bioware would remain silent with the outcry as big as it is.

[MedhiaNox]

As a note - I don't think it has to anything to do with indoctrination.

While his experience "is" an hallucination - it is due to his partial Reaper nature.

When the Illusive Man resurrects Shepard - it is with salvaged Reaper technology. Reaper technology that could just has easily allowed Shepard to "interface" with The Catalyst on a cerebral level.

1) Chakwas makes a point to "check your cybernetics" at the beginning of the game - calling to the forefront something that might otherwise have no bearing anymore.

2) Legion's explanation of the Consensus (?) - might also point to this theme while having no direct connection.

So as an amendment - Shepard is lying in the rubble interfacing with The Catalyst - which isn't a departure from what you're saying - but it has nothing to do with indoctrination.

If they went with this... then the Illusive Man truly did defeat the Reapers. I think it would be rather poetic.

Modifié par MedhiaNox, 13 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[XPMUser]

HooblaDGN wrote...

At low military strength some people ONLY get the destroy option. They are unable to choose the others. This sort of renders indoctrination theory moot. If the Reapers were trying to indoctrinate you they would not ONLY preent you with the option they're trying to drive you away from.

Linky:

http://m.gamefaqs.co...fect-3/62225565

You can destroy AND control if you have low EMS.
Presenting synthesis to Sheps with high EMS is a way to trick them into believing it is a better option, so they will be less likely to choose destroy(which is actually the best)

[Lugaidster]

dkear1 wrote...

As to the indoctrination theory, I have to admit it is a good one. However, to end the game like that has got to be the biggest mistake that a gaming company has ever made. Besides, if this was the case, I hardly think that bioware would remain silent with the outcry as big as it is.

Regardless of intent, the game as presented is either incomplete or retarded. I prefer incomplete .

[Revanmug]

You know your book is bad when you have to make another book to explain your previous book.

I'll believe something else happen once I see it while keeping in mind other possibilities. That is the only logic course of action.

For now, Bioware fail miserably. There is nothing you can do to change that except bioware themself.

[baldmop]

Well this presented me with another chance to play through thank you . My Shep died on the destroy option and reading other post helped piece together where it all went wrong .

[dkear1]

MedhiaNox wrote...

As a note - I don't think it has to anything to do with indoctrination.

While his experience "is" an hallucination - it is due to his partial Reaper nature.

When the Illusive Man resurrects Shepard - it is with salvaged Reaper technology. Reaper technology that could just has easily allowed Shepard to "interface" with The Catalyst on a cerebral level.

1) Chakwas makes a point to "check your cybernetics" at the beginning of the game - calling to the forefront something that might otherwise have no bearing anymore.

2) Legion's explanation of the Consensus (?) - might also point to this theme while having no direct connection.

So as an amendment - Shepard is lying in the rubble interfacing with The Catalyst - which isn't a departure from what you're saying - but it has nothing to do with indoctrination.

If they went with this... then the Illusive Man truly did defeat the Reapers. I think it would be rather poetic.

I agree would love it if it was true.  However, with bioware remaining silent I just don't see it.  Aweful big risk on their part to take.