1594 réponses à ce sujet

[JeffZero]

Why did the Prothean VI on Thessia detect Leng's indoctrination and not Shepard's?

[MedhiaNox]

@JeffZero - because there is no indoctrination (yes, I'm going to keep repeating myself)

[Tiax Rules All]

MedhiaNox wrote...

@FoxShadowblade: That isn't indoctrination though (except for maybe this "growling" theme) - that's just good o'le fashion hallucination.

And - book aside (because not everyone reads them) - nobody who is indoctrinated has indicated that they're hallucinating.

Instead - I think because Shepard is partly Reaper - the Catalyst can communicate with him. He already IS the synthesis between man and machine... as the Catalyst says: "The pinnacle of evolution."

It's the same as Legion's Consensus.  Shepard is just hallucinating in some form of cyber-space.

Something I always wondered... why are you chasing the child through a forest?

 the two guys in ME2, recording of cerberus workers on collector ship...
they both believe they have the same wife, same memories, same life... they quote each other... then realise they are indoctrinated. Thoughs have been placed in thier minds, subletly

[Soilworker77]

JeffZero wrote...

Why did the Prothean VI on Thessia detect Leng's indoctrination and not Shepard's?

Remember that Shepard is also able to understand Prothean messages, like the beacons in ME1 and the messages at Eden Prime in ME3.
The VI might have trusted Shepard more becuase of that and that Shepard has other beliefs than Leng and TIM

[Tiax Rules All]

JeffZero wrote...

Why did the Prothean VI on Thessia detect Leng's indoctrination and not Shepard's?

Smiley556 wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

OP, why didn't the Prothean VI detect indoctrination in Shepard?

Because Shepard wasnt indoctrinated yet at that point. Infact shepard still isnt indoctrinated yet if you pick the destroy option, thats the whole idea. The fact that Harbinger is trying to indoctrinate Shepard over the course of the game and that he is struggling with it is kind of a given really since Awakening. Trying is the key word here.

this has been expained, its the easiest "whole" to plug.  the whole scene at the end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. and by your ending decision YOU decide wether he come out in the ending as dead/indoctrinated or alive and well.

EDIT: ... maybe not alive and well., but alive...

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[MedhiaNox]

@Tiax Rules All: And you believe brainwashing to be the same as hallucination?

[BoneNinja]

Lugaidster wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/9872108&lf=8
Nuf said

I'm still reluctant to take that as anything official.

I wouldn't say it's anything official. But it does mean they are watching the thread, which in and of itself makes me a little happier. It means we're at least all being heard.

[Capeo]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Oh, good god.  Shepard wanted his crew to get stranded on some rock?  That would be his ultimate wish?  Strand everyone away from their homes they just worked so hard to reclaim?  And what it SAY IN THE SCRIPT means nothing?  It has always been their intent that Synergy is the best ending.  This is BWs words.  They call it the perfect ending and the one that saves the galaxy.  

source?

so the "perfect ending? is not the one that has the OMG shep is alive moment at the end? this shepard live, game chaging moment only happens on the hardest to achieve ending.  This is not the "perfect ending"?

Synergy does the reapers job for them and is in a sense the WORST ending. Turning all life to half reaer tech synthetic life? F that noise. that is not perfect.. its perfect for the reapers. they can go home winners without firing any more shots.

Source?  The leaked script.  Whether you think it's perfect or not has no bearing on what BW thinks.

 so somewhere in this leaked script there is a line that says synergy is the "perfect ending"

I can only believe that with some sort of proof or source.

http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug 

From the script:
CONVERSATION: Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed. 
ACTION: Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is destroyed, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is also Destroyed.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is okay, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is devastated.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay. Shepard survives.

Modifié par Capeo, 13 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[Tiax Rules All]

MedhiaNox wrote...

@Tiax Rules All: And you believe brainwashing to be the same as hallucination?

its kinda of both, indoctrination only really takes over at the end because Shepard gets hit by the beam and is weak/almost dead. hes hallucinating AND being indoctrinated.

[mad825]

The ending was:

• A dick move
• written poorly
• designed  poorly (lazy)
• pretentious (if applicable, the hallucination theory)

Oh, I "get" the ending but is it fulfilling? ME and ME2 managed to achieve a satisfying ending, so why is ME3 so special? Bioware/EA being cashcows?

[Kyrick]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.

I hope to make a complete and easy explanation of the ending, comment if you think I need to adjust or add to it.
This post does not apply to those who just don't like it because of its lack of detailed epilogue.

First of all there is one ending that is the real ending and all other endings are tricks and illusions. In fact the only REAL ending in the whole game is if you pick the destroy option with over 4000 assets. The real ending is only that 20 seconds they show of Shepard in the rubble and then takes a breath.

That (supposed to be) eye opening moment is supposed to tell you that Shepard was never on the Citadel. He lies just where he was knocked out by the destroyer blast, in the rubble of London. This is where the confusion takes place.

Everything that happens after the destroyer hits Shepard during his charge is a combination of a dying Shepard's hallucinations and reaper indoctrination trying to take over. Right after the blast, Shepard wakes with his armor half blown off. This is not just cut scene fubar, this is the start of his indoctrination fight when everything is slightly off, as in a dream (because it is)

If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.

After he reaches the Citadel there is more oddness that should be setting off triggers for the player that something is not right, that this is an illusion... Anderson describes shifting walls and only ever agrees with Shep on his surroundings after Shep describes his and saying "like the collector base you described". Everything is just a projection from Shepard's mind and subconscious.

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

There are more allusions to not trusting Cerberus/reapers throughout the game as well. You really start to see them after you understand the indoctrination ending. For example: TIM talking to Kai Lang says "Shepard was always going to stay true to his ideals" subtlety suggesting that the player should do the same and not let TIM/reapers compromise you destroying the reapers. The goal you have had since the very beginning. Also before the attack on Cerberus base I believe, there is a quantum comm. call between you and Hackett. You have the option of saying something like "what if TIM is right and the reapers CAN be controlled" and Hackett shoots you down. Gives you a direct order to kill TIM and destroy reapers. No questions asked. Once again, game trying to remind you of the one true goal and keep you focused.

Now about the Catalyst and the crucible conversation and decision itself... By this time indoctrination is very close to taking over. The end is near. The catalyst looks like the little boy because of shep's subconscious and indoctrination is feeding off that. Everything in this scene is A LIE. The choices and how they are presented to you are all part of the deception to get Shepard to give his mind into indoctrination and lose the will to fight it.

You are presented first with the destroy option. He says "I KNOW you have been thinking of destroying us but..." The catalyst is scared, knows that its only chance is to manipulate Shepard here and now. It's painted in renegade red to through you off. This is purposefully done to manipulate Shepard's decision to fight. He tells you all synthetic life will be wiped out, including Geth and including Shepard because he is partially cybernetic himself. In sales you always present the worst option first and the best for last. So the next 2 options can then be presented and made more appealable.

the other 2 options do not let you ever see Shepard "alive" at the end so to me BOTH of these options are fails and result in you being indoctrinated and/or dying right there on the streets of London. Without that last breath scene. There can be no happy ending. I will elaborate on them a bit more separately.

Synthesis was in the middle and last option presented, this is what they ultimately want. He even likened the synthesis to husks in his description. The reapers want to harvest organics and change them into hybrids. By choosing synthesis you would be doing their work for them in an instant. Basically I see this as total fail ending, you have been played.

Now the control option was not presented as prominently as the synthesis but was still painted in paragon blue and offered as an option still better then destroy. In the end the result for choosing this is the same behind the scenes. Shepard gave into indoctrination/death and you do not get the breath tidbit.

So if you choose destroy like I believe we are somewhat intended to, remember that the explosion cut scene and relays exploding and Normandy running/crashing ALL OF THAT IS STILL HALLUCINATION. This is Shepard's subconscious imagining a "happy ending" he imagines reapers destroyed, earth fighters celebrating, and he imagines and ending for companions. The lush new planet-scape is just a metaphor for starting over and them being at peace. That's why immediately after they show Shep waking up, to solidify the dream idea.

At that point you are supposed to start thinking about what really happened. Shepard is alive, on Earth, has conquered indoctrination. Another HUGE thing is that after destroying the reapers you were supposed to be dead. Recalling the little boy "you will die as you are partly synthetic". When you wake up after that in the rubble, it should be a clear indication that you have been lied to. You did not die like the boy said you would, he just said that to dissuade you. The rest is left even more ambiguous but...

I personally believe that Shepard's job ended there. His companions who followed him at the last rush are dead beside him not suddenly on the Normandy and suddenly in a new system living happily ever after. That only happens in dreams He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.

Love it or hate it, I whole heartedly believe that we will see DLC in the future that will start with Shepard taking that breath in the rubble. It will be something like Waking up after beating indoctrination and actually concluding the story in a more definitive way. And possibly a lot more "happy" though I'm more interested in "real" then some contrived happiness.



TL;DR (oh come on read above, its good
2 parts, first everything that happens between Shepard getting hit by the destroyer eye blast during the London charge and the "take a breath" scene (that you only get by choosing correct choices and having high enough EMF) Is a hallucination/indoctrination process that Shepard is fighting in his head.


There is only one real ending, the ending you have been groomed for since the beginning. Destroy the reapers at all costs. All other endings that do not have Shepard alive at the end are lies. They are illusions and means that Shepard gave into indoctrination and never awoke back on earth to realize this. And the player doesn't understand.

All the supposed plot holes can be explained by this. See examples above. Ask me questions if you have them, I will try to clarify for you in comments.

Also if you would rather watch 3 minutes of youtube, this is a rather good but not totally complete ending explaination. I approve


FINAL NOTE
I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.

You are provably incorrect.  Speculation is NOT an acceptable nor noteworthy ending in any literary sense.  Nor is an incomplete ending lauditory.  To claim that this ending is in any way something other than laughably bad demonstrates profound ignorance of what precisely a 'good' ending to a story actually is.

[Rawgrim]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

MedhiaNox wrote...

@Tiax Rules All: And you believe brainwashing to be the same as hallucination?

its kinda of both, indoctrination only really takes over at the end because Shepard gets hit by the beam and is weak/almost dead. hes hallucinating AND being indoctrinated.

This. Indoctrination takes time. kind of like an infection. We see symptoms of it all through the game, but it doesn`t kick in untill the end.

[MedhiaNox]

@Tiax Rules All: I disagree - I believe he is only hallucinating.

Indoctrination doesn't allow for so much free will. Why would the Reapers "need" to convince Shepard to make the choice? IF he were indoctrinated - they make the call.

I don't believe it can be both indoctrination... and not indoctrination depending on which part of the story we're at (at the ending). That would be the absolute worst form of writing (opinion).

I believe that it is possible (if any of this is to be believed) The Catalyst knew it couldn't indoctrinate Shepard from Harbinger's interactions with him. So - it decided to do it the old fashion way and simply communicate with him - and convince him to do what it wanted (which also leaves room for Shepard to defy it of course)>

Modifié par MedhiaNox, 13 mars 2012 - 06:16 .

[Vilegrim]

BoneNinja wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/9872108&lf=8
Nuf said

I'm still reluctant to take that as anything official.

I wouldn't say it's anything official. But it does mean they are watching the thread, which in and of itself makes me a little happier. It means we're at least all being heard.

no, it mans people who support them are being heard.  Not anyone who disagrees.

[Rawgrim]

MedhiaNox wrote...

@Tiax Rules All: I disagree - I believe he is only hallucinating.

Indoctrination doesn't allow for so much free will. Why would the Reapers "need" to convince Shepard to make the choice? IF he were indoctrinated - they make the call.

I don't believe it can be both indoctrination... and not indoctrination depending on which part of the story we're at (at the ending). That would be the absolute worst form of writing (opinion).

I believe that it is possible (if any of this is to be believed) The Catalyst knew it couldn't indoctrinate Shepard from Harbinger's interactions with him. So - it decided to do it the old fashion way and simply communicate with him - and convince him to do what it wanted (which also leaves room for Shepard to defy it of course)>

This is because if Shep choses Control, he fails and indoctrinated. From that point on. He isn`t indoctrinated before that, hence he still has free will. If the War Assets are really low, the only choice you get is Control. Meaning She can`t keep himself from being indoctrinated at all. Due to low confidence\\resolve from having a weak army.

[jef379]

Capeo wrote...

http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug 

From the script:
CONVERSATION: Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed. 
ACTION: Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is destroyed, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is also Destroyed.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is okay, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is devastated.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay. Shepard survives.

There is a difference between a perfect game and a perfect ending. It is true that the synthesis option is only available with high EMS, but that dosen't mean it is the right ending. I think it is merely the reapers doing everything they can to stop Shepard from snapping out of indoctrination. Besides, in what would ''doing what the reapers wanted'' be qualified as the perfect ending ? Seems like the oposite to me.

[marm0ta]

So if this is true about indoctrination, then the video after the credits makes sense. I mean, the kid said "tell me more about the Shepard", especially when you get the ending where shows Shepard breathing. Hope you guys understand what i meant.

[Soilworker77]

Kyrick wrote...
You are provably incorrect.  Speculation is NOT an acceptable nor noteworthy ending in any literary sense.  Nor is an incomplete ending lauditory.  To claim that this ending is in any way something other than laughably bad demonstrates profound ignorance of what precisely a 'good' ending to a story actually is.

Neither is it acceptable to tell somebody that their theory is wrong, especially when there clearly is no clear evidence nor do you prove in any way the theory is wrong.

[IhateEA-Mask]

People at hallucination thread are annoyed that mod linked to this thread to post asking questions when hallucination thread is older and has more pages Its kinda funny

[Wowlock]

No matter how hard you try... you cannot justify something like that.

It was indoctrination ...really ? then why does not game continue ? This is the ending to the trilogy ? or they wanted to milk the ''real ending'' by using DLCs ?

I am tellign you...they failed on this big time. If you can't resolve the story in THE END of the trilogy then you are not doing your job right.

Even if this turns out to be dream or hallucination whatever , this is a total dick move because there is no continuation from it. You don't know what happened. You just go through some short cutscenes with no sense than a polar bear on Ecuador, then Bam everything blows up, some old guys with his grandson talk about Shepard.... You know what ? I don't care about some Stargazer from unknowable future. I want to know about the characters and races I actually CARE .

I already said it that if they won't get their **** together...this is the last Bioware game I will pre-order or even buy outright. If they ''planned'' this ending to milk more DLC...It is such a dirty trick that I can even call it a SCAM ....

[Tiax Rules All]

well Capeo,

I give you props on finding the "source" ill look it over. though even that is not "proof" of anything and I would still be inclined to go with what i am actually seeing on screen then what is read off a an old script on the internet.

I mean its kinda like drawing a conclusion to a game while beta testing it. Its not an exact representative of the finished product.

My claims come from game footage that anybody can see. and wont change from person to person. The message recieved might change from different people but not whats shown on screen.

So again, good pull, ill look it over but i guess im not at all convinced that the shepard lives scene IS NOT the perfect ending, especially that those other options dont replace that scene with an alternateive but instead just dont have that scene at all.

[MedhiaNox]

@Rawgrim: I'm sorry - but I feel that's absolutely horrible.

I think I would rather have the ending be real - than whether or not I was indoctrinated depending on if I got some obscure Volus artifact that raised my War Assets.

In truth - if Shepard is indoctrinated at all - it'll already be a nail in the coffin for me and no amount of DLC will likely be able to fix it.

---

My preferred amendment is as I stated - the Lazarus Project used Reaper tech - it ends up being a reality that the Illusive Man unintentionally (or better yet intentionally) made Shepard impervious to indoctrination - and this ultimately helps save the Mass Effect universe.

I hate TIM - I think he's a pitiful wretch... but I think this would give him a small infusion of depth. I think it would be ever better if you found out that TIM got indoctrinated while trying to figure out how to combat indoctrination - and Shepard was his only success. Ultimately - he would have sacrificed himself and Cerberus to resurrect Shepard and save humanity.

[Tiax Rules All]

IhateEA-Mask wrote...

People at hallucination thread are annoyed that mod linked to this thread to post asking questions when hallucination thread is older and has more pages Its kinda funny

Does not prove anything at all.     but....

[Militarized]

jef379 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug 

From the script:
CONVERSATION: Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed. 
ACTION: Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is destroyed, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is also Destroyed.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is okay, and the Reapers leave.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is devastated.   
CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay.  
 CUTSCENE: The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay. Shepard survives.

There is a difference between a perfect game and a perfect ending. It is true that the synthesis option is only available with high EMS, but that dosen't mean it is the right ending. I think it is merely the reapers doing everything they can to stop Shepard from snapping out of indoctrination. Besides, in what would ''doing what the reapers wanted'' be qualified as the perfect ending ? Seems like the oposite to me.

In bad writing. 

[JasonTan87]

The indoctrination theory, while plausible and attractive, is unlikely. This is because Bioware does not have experience or the finesse to pull of such a feat of writing in a medium as complex as this. They're known more for their epic, sweeping narrative arcs as compared to post-modern screenplay.

The biggest concern I have about the indoctrination theory is that it hinges on the entire ending sequence being a form of meta-narrative. This meta-narrative is never presented to the player clearly or consistently enough to support such a large plot twist.