1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Varghulf]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

Question:

If the whole deal with the endings actually is this whole dream/indoctrination idea that seems to be going around, then doesn't that mean that when Shepard finally wakes up in the rubble that the reapers are still rampaging around? If everything that happens in the ending is just a dream sequence, doesn't that technically mean that whatever choice we made on the citadel (merge, destroy, or control) didn't actually happen? That the war is still going on while Shepard (and team if they even lived through that blast) has been knocked out and that we basically finished a game that had no complete ending?

And if Bioware does come out with a DLC that plays into this, that it means will have to pay to get a DLC that has the real game ending in it?

Yeah, I can see them doing that, and I completly fine by it too. I just love the serie too much to think of it as not a waste of money. As I will continue to support the ME series and hopefully they won't disappoint me.

[JesseLee202]

This theory is pure genius! THANK YOU! I can keep on playing knowing it wasn't all for nothing.

[RoachycaL]

I've been watching this forum very closely since I finished the game on Saturday night. Naturally I'm a very big fan of the series and I was heartbroken to say the least when I saw the original ending. I actually felt depressed for 2 days afterwards and wondered what the hell I had done to myself.

Anyway I gathered my strength to play through the game again on Insanity and after reading the indoctrination theory and finishing the game again, I think it's the only way to go. Whilst I think it is utterly shocking that Bioware believe they can finish the game "properly" with DLC, it's the best we have got.

The signs really are there as everyone has already said. They have screwed up the ending though, if they want to hint at indoctrination - fair enough but they should have made it more obvious. When I finished the game the first time, that thought didn't even cross my mind. It was this forum that made me realise otherwise.

It's a shame that the ending can have such a negative impact on the rest of the game because the other 99.9% of it was really fantastic and probably in my top 3 games of all time. So gripping and well done... but they did screw up the end.

I think it would also be right to direct a lot of the hate towards EA because no doubt they will have been pressurising the crap out of BioWare to stick all this "preorder DLC" on, and of course split the ending up like they have so they can milk some money from their fans.

[Tiax Rules All]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

Question:

If the whole deal with the endings actually is this whole dream/indoctrination idea that seems to be going around, then doesn't that mean that when Shepard finally wakes up in the rubble that the reapers are still rampaging around? If everything that happens in the ending is just a dream sequence, doesn't that technically mean that whatever choice we made on the citadel (merge, destroy, or control) didn't actually happen? That the war is still going on while Shepard (and team if they even lived through that blast) has been knocked out and that we basically finished a game that had no complete ending?

And if Bioware does come out with a DLC that plays into this, that it means will have to pay to get a DLC that has the real game ending in it?

yes on all fronts.

[Abram730]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...


Question:

If the whole deal with the endings actually is this whole dream/indoctrination idea that seems to be going around, then doesn't that mean that when Shepard finally wakes up in the rubble that the reapers are still rampaging around? If everything that happens in the ending is just a dream sequence, doesn't that technically mean that whatever choice we made on the citadel (merge, destroy, or control) didn't actually happen? That the war is still going on while Shepard (and team if they even lived through that blast) has been knocked out and that we basically finished a game that had no complete ending?

And if Bioware does come out with a DLC that plays into this, that it means will have to pay to get a DLC that has the real game ending in it?

The real ending is that you fell in the final charge..  It's in there and what follows is a choice that sets up ME4..  any expantion on that would be a large expantion pack or ME4.. I think it's ME4, but I could be wrong.

The reapers are a sci-fi version of the biblical GOD.  The indoctrinated are their profits.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you (Matthew 7:12).”

I think your choices DO have results... LOL 
The results of that choice are more then a quick video...  That's a big choice.  Think about the ramification of that being a judgment on you.

To be continued

Modifié par Abram730, 13 mars 2012 - 11:17 .

[CrimsonNephilim]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

Question:

If the whole deal with the endings actually is this whole dream/indoctrination idea that seems to be going around, then doesn't that mean that when Shepard finally wakes up in the rubble that the reapers are still rampaging around? If everything that happens in the ending is just a dream sequence, doesn't that technically mean that whatever choice we made on the citadel (merge, destroy, or control) didn't actually happen? That the war is still going on while Shepard (and team if they even lived through that blast) has been knocked out and that we basically finished a game that had no complete ending?

And if Bioware does come out with a DLC that plays into this, that it means will have to pay to get a DLC that has the real game ending in it?

yes on all fronts.

Hmm....well played sir. You have intrigued me. In the mean time I'm gonna go prep my Flame Shield becuase if something like that happens these forums are going to fall back into "BIOWARE! Y U RELEASE INCOMPLETE GAME!"

[Rawgrim]

Reaper: Shepard.
Shepard: You know who I am?
Reaper: Harbinger speaks of you. You resist. But you will fail.

The conversation between Shep and the reaper on Rannoch. A conversation Tali shows no interest in, whatsoever. Maybe because its not actually going on?

[GoblinSapper]

In the characters too, exactly as in the structure of the incidents, [the poet] ought always to seek what is either necessary or probable, so that it is either necessary or probable that a person of such-and-such a sort say or do things of the same sort, and it is either necessary or probable that this [incident] happen after that one. It is obvious that the solutions of plots too should come about as a result of the plot itself, and not from a contrivance, as in the Medea and in the passage about sailing home in the Iliad. A contrivance must be used for matters outside the drama—either previous events which are beyond human knowledge, or later ones that need to be foretold or announced. For we grant that the gods can see everything. There should be nothing improbable in the incidents; otherwise, it should be outside the tragedy, e.g., that in Sophocles' Oedipus.
—Aristotle, Poetics

[2seater]

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

[Nilofeliu]

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

It's the new PR stunt. You pay for 16 endings, but get 3, that in fact are 1.

How do you like the deal?

[CrimsonNephilim]

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

I'm starting to think it is true because I didn't get that either. If Shepard was ported to the Citadel, how the heck did s/he end up back on earth buried in rubble?  I doesn't make any sense because Shepard would either die on the citadel, burn up in the atmosphere, or get spaced again if s/he remained on the citadel when it got destroyed.

[annoyingpoodle]

Rawgrim wrote...

Reaper: Shepard.
Shepard: You know who I am?
Reaper: Harbinger speaks of you. You resist. But you will fail.

The conversation between Shep and the reaper on Rannoch. A conversation Tali shows no interest in, whatsoever. Maybe because its not actually going on?

You resist is hinting at the indoctrination as well

[Rawgrim]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Reaper: Shepard.
Shepard: You know who I am?
Reaper: Harbinger speaks of you. You resist. But you will fail.

The conversation between Shep and the reaper on Rannoch. A conversation Tali shows no interest in, whatsoever. Maybe because its not actually going on?

You resist is hinting at the indoctrination as well

Exactly.

[TyDurden13]

Definitely agree with the Indoctrination theory. The pieces fit. Nice job by the OP spelling it out. I certainly missed it on my first run, but have to admit it makes a hell of a lot of sense. I think at this point the people against the theory either haven't fully read it or are being willfully obtuse. There is just too much to support it.

Also count me among those who think it's pretty clever. Dunno about GENIUS, but pretty clever...definitely ballsy though.

That said, what I do have some doubts about is forthcoming ending DLC. I mean, what if they wanted a somewhat ambiguous ending? Many others have done this in the past...Sopranos, Inception, etc. And whether you loved or hated those endings, it's clear that authorial intent was for it to end on a note of ambiguous triumph (or triumphal ambiguity).

I do have to admit, Shepard waking up from the dream and the quick cut to the credits is a pretty badass final scene. Couldn't they just say that was the end...that the important thing is that Shepard resisted indoctrination and everything else is simply coda?

Anyway, if you think about it it that way, it's kind of the inverse of the ending of a horror movie. Instead of the heroes being safe and the monster popping back up uin the final frame, we have the opposite of the Reapers seemingly winning only to have Shepard pop back up in the last frame. But I digress.

TLDR - I think the Indoctrination theory is 100% correct (and kinda cool) but I don't think that necessarily means we are getting post ending DLC.

[novaseeker]

RoachycaL wrote...


The signs really are there as everyone has already said. They have screwed up the ending though, if they want to hint at indoctrination - fair enough but they should have made it more obvious. When I finished the game the first time, that thought didn't even cross my mind. It was this forum that made me realise otherwise.

Which was likely intentional -- those who are being indoctrinated generally are not aware of it at all.  Making it more obvious would have also killed the immersion experience of the player being indoctrinated.  Frustrating, yes, but indoctrination *should* be frustrating.

[KillerQuag]

Denial. It's the start to the recovery process.

[Tiax Rules All]

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

its getting exausting but I could just say, read the OP...

Shepard is never pysically "back"from anywhere. he never leaves london, never goes to citadel, never meets TIM and anderson, never meets catalyst and never phsically chooses anything on the citadel.  Shepard is dying in some rubble near the beam in london after getting hit by the destroyer laser. He never moves from that spot the whole rest of the game. everything, icluding citadel blast, war ending, relays explodong and normandy crash. None of that ever really happens. His comapnions probably watch as he is killed in charge. and everyhting after that is shepards half dead hallucinations mixed with reaper indoctrination. the 3 choices at end do not actually mean ANYTHING other then, control and synthesis means, you lose the battle of the mind. shepard never wakes from his dream. you chose wrong and now watch shepards last dreams of what he would like to see happen, though its all i lie, hes dead.

the only ending that is true is when you chose destroy and you win the battle of the mind by defying the reaper indoctrination, shep still imagines a happy ending, except now.... he wakes up at the end. and everybody is SUPPOSED to think OMG, Shep is alive on earth. he never actually left. you chose correctly, you live. have fun with dlc...

seriously, read the OP

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[Bann Duncan]

Tiax, I think the fact that Woo just linked to your thread might be a hint in the right direction.

[2seater]

Execute23 wrote...

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

There are three main endings with very minor variations of those three passed off as additional endings.

I see overblown marketing to get us replaying over and over. (I still love Mass Effect though)

[Tiax Rules All]

Bann Duncan wrote...

Tiax, I think the fact that Woo just linked to your thread might be a hint in the right direction.

I cant really say that and i wont claim any victory because of it. could just be coincidence or random chance but it does make you think a bit.

[2seater]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

I'm starting to think it is true because I didn't get that either. If Shepard was ported to the Citadel, how the heck did s/he end up back on earth buried in rubble?  I doesn't make any sense because Shepard would either die on the citadel, burn up in the atmosphere, or get spaced again if s/he remained on the citadel when it got destroyed.

FIRST: I was thinking the starboy teleported me back, but then again, I killed him, killed the citadel (and its population) and the technology capable would have been destroyed. SECOND: the final cutscene shows my body under debri, I HAD TO HAVE ALREADY BEEN LAYING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. (mind blown)

My only sadness stems from the fact Garrus was with me in the final charge. A radio comm stated that no one made it to the beam....

[Dr_Hello]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

Actually, Tiax, we don't know what's the true ending yet, whether Shepard will die or not, because if the ending in ME3 is an actual indoctrination trial and Shepard passes the test to wake up in the rubble, he'll be back on his feet in the DLC to finish the fight...

... Maybe that's why the grandfather tells the stargazer, paraphrasing 'It's getting late.. okay, one more story of the Shepard'. It's all speculation and guesses at this point though.

[Tiax Rules All]

2seater wrote...

Execute23 wrote...

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

There are three main endings with very minor variations of those three passed off as additional endings.

I see overblown marketing to get us replaying over and over. (I still love Mass Effect though)

i mean when any game out there tells you they have 16 endings.. It ALWAYS means they are just slight variations of each other. Its just the way it is. No game wastes time on 15 (fully fleshed and unique) extra endings that the player may never see.

[Tiax Rules All]

Dr_Hello wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

Actually, Tiax, we don't know what's the true ending yet, whether Shepard will die or not, because if the ending in ME3 is an actual indoctrination trial and Shepard passes the test to wake up in the rubble, he'll be back on his feet in the DLC to finish the fight...

... Maybe that's why the grandfather tells the stargazer, paraphrasing 'It's getting late.. okay, one more story of the Shepard'. It's all speculation and guesses at this point though.

absolutely true. but they arent mutually exclusive. wether shep lives or dies at the end of ME3, he will still most certainly be dead in stargazers present. so it still works as an ending even with dlc added later.