1594 réponses à ce sujet

[2seater]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

its getting exausting but I could just say, read the OP...

Shepard is never pysically "back"from anywhere. he never leaves london, never goes to citadel, never meets TIM and anderson, never meets catalyst and never phsically chooses anything on the citadel.  Shepard is dying in some rubble near the beam in london after getting hit by the destroyer laser. He never moves from that spot the whole rest of the game. everything, icluding citadel blast, war ending, relays explodong and normandy crash. None of that ever really happens. His comapnions probably watch as he is killed in charge. and everyhting after that is shepards half dead hallucinations mixed with reaper indoctrination. the 3 choices at end do not actually mean ANYTHING other then, control and synthesis means, you lose the battle of the mind. shepard never wakes from his dream. you chose wrong and now watch shepards last dreams of what he would like to see happen, though its all i lie, hes dead.

the only ending that is true is when you chose destroy and you win the battle of the mind by defying the reaper indoctrination, shep still imagines a happy ending, except now.... he wakes up at the end. and everybody is SUPPOSED to think OMG, Shep is alive on earth. he never actually left. you chose correctly, you live. have fun with dlc...

seriously, read the OP

I agreed with you. the emphasis on my post was "IF THERE WAS NO INDOCTRINATION". If bioware didn't intend on indoctrination, they did/could not explain at all how Shepard made it back,lay in some rubel and take a nap.

seriously, re-read my post
no need to get snappy.

Modifié par 2seater, 13 mars 2012 - 11:42 .

[Bann Duncan]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

Tiax, I think the fact that Woo just linked to your thread might be a hint in the right direction.

I cant really say that and i wont claim any victory because of it. could just be coincidence or random chance but it does make you think a bit.

Hence the 'might be' and 'hint' but it certainly got my hopes up.

[Dr_Hello]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP,

A question for you: in the extra cutscene where Shepard wakes up, why is he/she in the generic N7 armor and not the player's custom suit?

because that is a pre-rendered video cutscene not in in engine screen.

sorry no interesting answer there. just a technical one.

I did think about that, but yea it's the technical answer. So I'm wondering why they didn't use the in-game graphics to show the gamer's Shepard in his/her custom armor if it's truly Shepard who passed the indoctrination trial and snaps out of it. Why the generic N7 armor and helmet. It's earth, helmet isn't required for breathing...

... and here's maybe why (and it's no good news for Shepard story and what we are hoping for):
- that person in the N7 armor suit could be just about any N7 soldier, therefore he/she could be a new character which gamers will customize in the next ME games

??!

Again all speculations and guesses at this point

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 13 mars 2012 - 11:45 .

[Tiax Rules All]

2seater wrote...

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

2seater wrote...

my only question is, if there was no indoctrination theory, how did Shepard end up back on Earth in the final cutscene?
and (I must be out of the loop) there are 16 different endings? I only see 3

I'm starting to think it is true because I didn't get that either. If Shepard was ported to the Citadel, how the heck did s/he end up back on earth buried in rubble?  I doesn't make any sense because Shepard would either die on the citadel, burn up in the atmosphere, or get spaced again if s/he remained on the citadel when it got destroyed.

FIRST: I was thinking the starboy teleported me back, but then again, I killed him, killed the citadel (and its population) and the technology capable would have been destroyed. SECOND: the final cutscene shows my body under debri, I HAD TO HAVE ALREADY BEEN LAYING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. (mind blown)

My only sadness stems from the fact Garrus was with me in the final charge. A radio comm stated that no one made it to the beam....

yes, and its THIS that is supposed to be the emotional focus of the ending. all the thought you put into it afterwards. and how the pieces then fall into place.

The emotion for comes not from any of the wacked out things they showed going down.
The emotion comes from knowing that you just played an nding entirely in sheps mind. You had no clue it was going down and you were legit, caught by surprise. also what really happened to the companions and war. Its left ambiguous there. but the jist is. the war is won or lost during leveling and collecting assets.

but SHEPARD himself is won or lost by the decisions you make in the hallucinatin / indoctrination/ battle for the mind sequence.

[Deltateam Elcor]

It wasnt a destroyer, it is clearly harbinger.

Which implies it has finally gotten its chance to ruin his much less advanced rival who has ruined all of its plans, including disgustingly destroying Sovereign.

Of course its pissed, but it is intelligent, it knows that killing shepard is not satisfying enough, it wants to spread its tendrils within shepards mind and destroy what makes him an individual.

[seitani]

Tiax i think that the ending you said is correct but things that i don't understand. Is Shepard dying in the rubble if he is then why the reapers want indoctrinate him if he is almost dead anyway. If he is alive then what happened to him, did the alliance take down reapers or did they lose and all advanced life is harvested and what happened to Illusive Man. Thats why Bioware should have put some kind of info at the end even some text or something.

[Tiax Rules All]

Dr_Hello wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP,

A question for you: in the extra cutscene where Shepard wakes up, why is he/she in the generic N7 armor and not the player's custom suit?

because that is a pre-rendered video cutscene not in in engine screen.

sorry no interesting answer there. just a technical one.

I did think about that, but yea it's the technical answer. So I'm wondering why they didn't use the in-game graphics to show the gamer's Shepard in his/her custom armor... why the generic N7 armor and helmet. It's earth, helmet isn't required to wear...

... and here's maybe why (and it's no good news for Shepard story and what we are hoping for):
- that person in the N7 armor suit could be just about any N7 soldier, therefore he/she could be a new character which gamers will customize in the next ME games

??!

Again all speculations and guesses at this point

everthing that is odd and doesnt make sense after the beam hit. starting with no armor shep and radio chatter contridiction, is MEANT to be odd. ITs supposed to jar the player out of trance. Its hinting to you the whole time that this is not real, this should not be accept as truth. apparently its not obvoius enough and instead people take the illusion as truth and think the plot holes are just bad writing.

the whole end game is one big bioware indoctrination mind-fck.   ideally you would have cought on the this illusion and relized that both TIM and catalyst and trying to fool you, TIM want you to pick control, wrong answer, no waking shep.. Catalyst wants you to accept synthesis, wrong answer, you aslo never awake.  The only correct and complete ending is denying the reapers, saying f-u to catalyst, take destroy option and get the real ending of she snapping out of it and comming back to life and the real world again.

[jrubal1462]

Even if one doesn't believe in every single tenet of your indoctrination theory, seeing Shepard wake up under a pile of stone rubble is just so wildly nonsensical if taken at face value. I, personally, would have loved a long, thorough epilogue detailing how everybody's little story wrapped up and everything, but that is impossible to put next to an ending that makes you question how much of what Shepard (or you, for that matter) saw is real. That's kind of a thing of beauty.

Seriously though, if the relays are really exploded, nobody wins...that's a future that I don't really want to imagine.

[brain_damage]

Wait, people here say that at some point after the beam hit, Shepard doesn't have armor on. When is that?

[Rawgrim]

Also notice that Shep`s gun has unlimited ammo after he gets hit by the beam. And in my playthrough it wasn`t even the same gun as the one i had equipped.

[Jake71887]

I think it's less that the people upset by the ending "Don't get it", and more that certain people "Delude themselves" to make themselves feel better with the mess we were left with. 

[Tiax Rules All]

seitani wrote...

Tiax i think that the ending you said is correct but things that i don't understand. Is Shepard dying in the rubble if he is then why the reapers want indoctrinate him if he is almost dead anyway. If he is alive then what happened to him, did the alliance take down reapers or did they lose and all advanced life is harvested and what happened to Illusive Man. Thats why Bioware should have put some kind of info at the end even some text or something.

either the ending is a major cliffhanger and you are just supposed to fill in the blanks of what happened after. Stargazer says you won, so they eventually won, with or without shepard after london. he is still legend though either way cause he is a legend for establishing the galactic fleet, not necessarily pushing a "kill all reapers swtich"  I think the war was won more conventionally.

or DLC, This is what I think. sheps story is, in fact, not over yet.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 11:58 .

[Tiax Rules All]

brain_damage wrote...

Wait, people here say that at some point after the beam hit, Shepard doesn't have armor on. When is that?

 he then has his "default armor" and its all ripped up ripped off looking. not you custom armor.

this happens as soon as reality ends, Shep is charging towards the beam in london. harbinger/ destroyer kills all forces rcharging, and hits shepard. the next scene is the slow motion shooty thing before entering the beam and going to citadel. though in reality shepard does not move the entire rest of the game. he is in the rubble pile dying and you are now playing inside his head, for control of his mind from indoctrination and to a wkae at the end by choosing correctly.

[TheBandit554]

 Huh, you'd think people weren't so naive as to jump immediatly to "I payed good money and I'm unsatisfied, gimme a better product". Do you go to the movies and see a good movie but then is a cliffhanger that was a really big cliffhanger, only to march up to the ticketbooth and demand a better movie or your money back? No. I loved the ending because it, like OP said, opens SO MANY POSSIBILITIES for the Mass Effect universe. I completly understand people are somewhat upset that they ARE going to have to PAY for DLC that has the closure they want. However, that gives us no right to kick and scream and cry over the fact that our food went cold. Haven't you heard talk of a Mass Effect MMO? Or maybe even a Mass Effect 4? I know some think, "well, if Shep died, then there is no ME", and to that I say look at DA, from the Warden to HAwke, quick as one game. I personally cannot wait for the future content, and feel terribly to be a part of a community that feels cheated and denied their happily ever after because they need to wait for DLC or ME4 or ME MMO. The endings weren't meant to be a reflection of our actions, but an ultimate choice to end our saga. Did we do good? Did we fight well? How did we spend the time given to us? Those are what the company wants you to think about while we wait for maybe a month for DLC to come out. So, yes harshly, take the stick out of your asses and the wax from your ears, and appreciate what an amazing game series ME has been.

Side note: If you really think that the last five minutes of ME3 ruined the series for you, obviously you didnt care as much for the series as you claim. Did those final minutes take away your memories? Your good times? Your triumphs and failures? Your emotional attachments? No, they made them stronger, and made you think about them all the more. You just got Biowared, and only they could make that great of a story, because someone else.... might've gotten it wrong . 

Side side note: DO NOT think that we, likers of the endings, too don't want some closure, some final conclusion to what happened to those we leave behind and how our decisions impacted the galaxy. We do, we just see that the ending isn't what needs to be changed, it's the reactions and self-entitled, "good money paying", and utterly selfish reactions to Bioware's masterpiece.

[DHolloway]

What is said actually makes sense. I agree with just about everything. And the ending even points out more DLC. Remember with the stargazer and the kid  Kid"Tell me another story about this shepard" Stargazer"It's getting late...but ok, one more" It even tells you there will be more  in DLC( well it does in my opinion) I do honestly believe  that Bioware had this planned from the start. release as is-then release DLC to clean it up. But until they release it I will enjoy what I have and buy more DLC when released because I love this series, and despite this unsatisfying ending, this game. Easily the best of the series.

[seitani]

yea i forgot the Stargazer part. Buzz Aldrin did nice voice appearance on that.

[Kloborgg711]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

or DLC, This is what I think. sheps story is, in fact, not over yet.

OK, I get that you think it's supposed to be "mysterious" or something, and I can kind of see where you're coming from with all this.
Unfortunately, most of us bought Mass Effect 3 planning to see the amazing conclusion of the series. The vast, vast majority of people will finish this game thinking this is it.. and I'm not yet convinced that it isn't.

[Turkeysock]

I say just wait, wait and see what DLC's that Bioware will announce. If they intended this "ending" we see as indoctrination (though I cannot see how Shepard becomes indoctrinated when he's probably spent maybe a week at most around Reaper tech), then we will get a DLC with the real ending.

If this is true, I will say I don't like how they played this off. I'd side with everyone else, the "true" ending should have been in the game from the start, not a DLC. If it is an illusion/indoctrination, and then you wake up from it to go on to fight and end the game, it would have truly been a very very brilliant move! After all, did they not push back the release date several months so they can ensure the game is "polished".

But I'll say the same thing to everyone else, it shouldn't matter if the ending is crap, if the game is awesome, it's awesome. I agree with many that the game needs closure. But we need to remember that the ending is only a small part of the journey.

[BeauRoger]

So if shepard was really indoctrinated and never really on the citadel, how can the reapers be destroyed? You said it yourself, nobody else made it up there, therefore all went down in shepards head. If it all went down in shepards head, then he didnt save anything and if nobody else did either, then all of them are screwed. If he did somehow go up there, how the hell did he then later wake up in the rubble in the same place where he got blasted by the reaper? And if this happened in shepards head, why the contrived and unnecessaily complex mindgames by the reapers, if it all meant jack anyway?

[DrowNoble]

The OP was very meticulate in the post, however missed a lot points that invalidate his argument.

First off the Indoctrination theory...

Only two ways to get indoctrinated: reaper implants or prolonged exposure to a reaper. Shephard's implants are Cerberus in origin, before they had Collector tech let alone reaper tech. In addition, Garrus received the same implants, so *IF* these implants were the cause, Garrus would be showing signs. He isn't.

Other option is prolonged proximity to a reaper. In ME2 Cerberus scientists started showing signs of indoctrination after weeks inside a dead reaper (hearing voices). Shephard has not had as much close contact as that. An hour or so nearby Sovereign in ME1, yet other people on the squad and the Citadel would of been affected. Then over 2 years later, a short exposure to the reaper embryo in ME2, again your squad not affected. In ME3 only exposure is very brief with reapers far in the distance. So we do not have the proximity or duration requirement for indoctrination here.

As for "tricks and illusions" it would be very lame on Bioware's part to leave it hanging like this. They could of kept the illusion up (if that's what it is) then reveal it at the end so we get the "OH so that's what's going on" moment. They didn't, just left us hanging. Not to mention reversing everything such as Anderson Ending is red (renegade) and TIM is blue (paragon) is cheap and confusing on their part. Remember the ending was supposed to be the final tie of the bow on this package, instead they added more holes.

If you insist on a hallucination, then why did Hackett call you? Why is the Normandy shown AFTER you made your choice crash landing on Gilligan's Planet? Why are the relays shown exploding? If shephard had thought "we'd won" why would he dream of a terrible fate for the galaxy as when relays go boom, so does the nearby system.

So for the sake of argument, let's say the OP is 100% correct. Bioware would then need to add some closure to this by having shephard being found (dead or alive), getting back with his love interest (marrying or being buried) and such. At it stands now we have so many unaswered questions as to What Happened.

Remember people: HOLD THE LINE

Modifié par DrowNoble, 14 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[Tiax Rules All]

basically wether you believe in any kind of life after death or not, shep is almost dead. maybe even clinically dead as hes not breathing. the brain is still firing, and maybe more frantically and unpredicatably then ever.

Since you are shepard, you live the last dying hallucinaton that shep has, as if they are your own experiences. There is no directors block signalling the transition between real and hallucination. You experience it real time. there is nobody going to tap shep and the shoulder and explain to him what he just experienced. its an almost out of body experience and that is what the ends about. not how many babies shep had. what beach shep like to go to on off hours. not a walk into the sunset. Its sad. its grim. Sheperd dies or very nearly dies a heroes death during a glorious charge. Is that not good enough?

[Dr_Hello]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP,

A question for you: in the extra cutscene where Shepard wakes up, why is he/she in the generic N7 armor and not the player's custom suit?

because that is a pre-rendered video cutscene not in in engine screen.

sorry no interesting answer there. just a technical one.

I did think about that, but yea it's the technical answer. So I'm wondering why they didn't use the in-game graphics to show the gamer's Shepard in his/her custom armor... why the generic N7 armor and helmet. It's earth, helmet isn't required to wear...

... and here's maybe why (and it's no good news for Shepard story and what we are hoping for):
- that person in the N7 armor suit could be just about any N7 soldier, therefore he/she could be a new character which gamers will customize in the next ME games

??!

Again all speculations and guesses at this point

everthing that is odd and doesnt make sense after the beam hit. starting with no armor shep and radio chatter contridiction, is MEANT to be odd. ITs supposed to jar the player out of trance. Its hinting to you the whole time that this is not real, this should not be accept as truth. apparently its not obvoius enough and instead people take the illusion as truth and think the plot holes are just bad writing.

the whole end game is one big bioware indoctrination mind-fck.   ideally you would have cought on the this illusion and relized that both TIM and catalyst and trying to fool you, TIM want you to pick control, wrong answer, no waking shep.. Catalyst wants you to accept synthesis, wrong answer, you aslo never awake.  The only correct and complete ending is denying the reapers, saying f-u to catalyst, take destroy option and get the real ending of she snapping out of it and comming back to life and the real world again.

I didn't say that this wasn't an indoctrination attempt and all that we've seen is really happening. I get the indoctrination theory, works for me, there's logic and meaning in it.

What I was asking is about the extra cutscene where we see Shepard awakening when he passed the indoctrination test...

- Why is Shepard in the generic N7 armor and with helmet (it's Earth, not need for breathing helmet)? (I understand it's a pre-rendered clip, not in-game graphics, but that's a technical answer. The Normandy scene was in-game graphics in the ending cutscene.)
- Is it because BW didn't want to make it too obvious that it's Shepard in the rubble? or they have plans to resume the fight with a new N7 soldier which gamers will then have to customize? That would be less likely but nevertheless, a possibility.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 14 mars 2012 - 12:15 .

[DrowNoble]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

basically wether you believe in any kind of life after death or not, shep is almost dead. maybe even clinically dead as hes not breathing. the brain is still firing, and maybe more frantically and unpredicatably then ever.

Since you are shepard, you live the last dying hallucinaton that shep has, as if they are your own experiences. There is no directors block signalling the transition between real and hallucination. You experience it real time. there is nobody going to tap shep and the shoulder and explain to him what he just experienced. its an almost out of body experience and that is what the ends about. not how many babies shep had. what beach shep like to go to on off hours. not a walk into the sunset. Its sad. its grim. Sheperd dies or very nearly dies a heroes death during a glorious charge. Is that not good enough?

It's not good enough because WE DON'T KNOW what happened.  Is shep dead?  Dying?  Hallucinating?  Did the relays really blow up?

If, according to you, Shephard never made it into the beam, then reapers won.  No one got to the beam, so no Crucible firing, so no reapers dead.  This would be an even WORSE ending as it would mean everything we fought for was for nothing.  Remember Casey Hudson said we'd get a "satisfying" ending, I'd hardly call that satisfying.

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

[Tiax Rules All]

@drow noble,
im sorry man. im in all 33 pages of this thread answering the same questions over and over again. Im just tired now. I'm logging out.

somebody else can take over. how come though when even you say that its an illusion, you ask why about relays and citadel and normandy.. this is still illusion. all of it. not real at all. no citadel visit,

read my lips.
everything from shep getting hit with destroyer laser until shep awakes in rubble after detroy ending is all shepards imagination. Shepard s mind is playing its last trick on his body. imaginign that it can go on and save the day. imaging that his comapnaions make it far away from thier troubles and can stat over new and fresh (lush untoched planet is metaphor) he just wants them to be safe and happy...

smiles on lush planet fade to black. we now see shep. lying there, dead/dying/hallucinating then he takes his breath as to say "mind ****" right at the screen. all they NEED and chose to show was that breath. Its SUPPOSED to convince you once and for all that the happy ending was bs and shep got dominated by that beam and never got up.

no happy ending was ever promised. but id feel it is purposely vague or incomplete for ending DLC.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 14 mars 2012 - 12:22 .