1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Zepp95]

Whoa...this is heavy.

Seriously. Even the ending of LOST wasn't as complicated as this. I'll just go put my brain back together...

[Dr_Hello]

BeauRoger wrote...

So if shepard was really indoctrinated and never really on the citadel, how can the reapers be destroyed? You said it yourself, nobody else made it up there, therefore all went down in shepards head. If it all went down in shepards head, then he didnt save anything and if nobody else did either, then all of them are screwed. If he did somehow go up there, how the hell did he then later wake up in the rubble in the same place where he got blasted by the reaper? And if this happened in shepards head, why the contrived and unnecessaily complex mindgames by the reapers, if it all meant jack anyway?

We don't know yet if the reapers won or not. If we follow the theory of the indoctrination trial, what we've seen after the beam hits Shepard is in his/her mind, being put to the test. If Shepard succeeds by choosing to destroy the reapers and wakes up in the rubble (given gamer has enough EMS), that's where the story will resume from. But the reapers wouldn't have been destroyed yet. That hallucination for all we know could have lasted just a few seconds or minutes in real world. The battle is still on and we don't know who has survived the beam blast... yet....  IF the indoctrination theory is true, otherwise it's all of us who's hallucinating on this forum right now.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 14 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Dr_Hello wrote...

BeauRoger wrote...

So if shepard was really indoctrinated and never really on the citadel, how can the reapers be destroyed? You said it yourself, nobody else made it up there, therefore all went down in shepards head. If it all went down in shepards head, then he didnt save anything and if nobody else did either, then all of them are screwed. If he did somehow go up there, how the hell did he then later wake up in the rubble in the same place where he got blasted by the reaper? And if this happened in shepards head, why the contrived and unnecessaily complex mindgames by the reapers, if it all meant jack anyway?

We don't know yet if the reapers won or not. If we follow the theory of the indoctrination trial, what we've seen after the beam hit Shepard is in his/her mind, being put to the test. If Shepard succeeds by choosing to destroy the reapers and wakes up in the rubble (given gamer has enough EMS), that's where the story will resume from. But the reapers wouldn't have been destroyed yet. That hallucination for all we know could have lasted just a few seconds or minutes in real world.

I think its corect to say that if you get stargazer ending, then the reapers are defeated. he doesnt say exactly how but that the "details are lost to time" so basically "fill in your own ending"  OR wait for DLC to fill it in for you.

[K_Tabris]

Don't insult our intelligence, OP. I didn't want to see Shepard die in every possible ending. The lack of choice through the illusion of choice is ridiculous, lazy and a slap in the face to us fans who have spent countless hours playing our Shepards since 2007

[Dr_Hello]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

BeauRoger wrote...

So if shepard was really indoctrinated and never really on the citadel, how can the reapers be destroyed? You said it yourself, nobody else made it up there, therefore all went down in shepards head. If it all went down in shepards head, then he didnt save anything and if nobody else did either, then all of them are screwed. If he did somehow go up there, how the hell did he then later wake up in the rubble in the same place where he got blasted by the reaper? And if this happened in shepards head, why the contrived and unnecessaily complex mindgames by the reapers, if it all meant jack anyway?

We don't know yet if the reapers won or not. If we follow the theory of the indoctrination trial, what we've seen after the beam hit Shepard is in his/her mind, being put to the test. If Shepard succeeds by choosing to destroy the reapers and wakes up in the rubble (given gamer has enough EMS), that's where the story will resume from. But the reapers wouldn't have been destroyed yet. That hallucination for all we know could have lasted just a few seconds or minutes in real world.

I think its corect to say that if you get stargazer ending, then the reapers are defeated. he doesnt say exactly how but that the "details are lost to time" so basically "fill in your own ending"  OR wait for DLC to fill it in for you.

So yes, if we consider the Stargazer scene, indeed the allies would have somehow won. How they won? is yet to be told, only IF the indoctrination theory is true.

However, here are some more thoughts about it:
the grandfather and stargazer are never identified in the scene. They are represented as anonymous and silhouettes. They could be organics, OR synthesis. If the latter, then that would defeat the hallucination theory.
But it's more likely that they are organics, which would mean the Reapers were destroyed and not merged with organics. That's just a guess.

[demin8891]

The more I read of this thread, the more OP's posts make me think this.

[Tiax Rules All]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Don't insult our intelligence, OP. I didn't want to see Shepard die in every possible ending. The lack of choice through the illusion of choice is ridiculous, lazy and a slap in the face to us fans who have spent countless hours playing our Shepards since 2007

thats your opinion. and shepard only dies in the wrong endings. the ones where you dont choose to destroy the reapers. otherwise, hes alive and ready for dlc.

[Tiax Rules All]

as to snob photo, some people dont like to be corrected. even if im not actually trying to correct and push anything, just explain.

[Kylar616]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

seitani wrote...

Tiax i think that the ending you said is correct but things that i don't understand. Is Shepard dying in the rubble if he is then why the reapers want indoctrinate him if he is almost dead anyway. If he is alive then what happened to him, did the alliance take down reapers or did they lose and all advanced life is harvested and what happened to Illusive Man. Thats why Bioware should have put some kind of info at the end even some text or something.

either the ending is a major cliffhanger and you are just supposed to fill in the blanks of what happened after. Stargazer says you won, so they eventually won, with or without shepard after london. he is still legend though either way cause he is a legend for establishing the galactic fleet, not necessarily pushing a "kill all reapers swtich"  I think the war was won more conventionally.

or DLC, This is what I think. sheps story is, in fact, not over yet.

Didn't you hear the countless times "we cannot win conventionally" was said? Turians had the best fleet in the galaxy and were ripped apart by part of the reaper forces after their short flt + fire before reapers can charge the death laser.

The reapers knew of Shepards plans hence why the Citadel was moved to Earth, they would have gathered in force as well. The fleet was losing before the rush to the beam and the crucible is the ONLY chance against the reapers.

As for all the speculation I see it as pointless and getting peoples hopes up. Those who start believing the indoctrination theories and get a "thats it suck it up kids" from bioware will just get more upset. No point saying anything is the true ending or not, they all may be the real endings but the destroy just as the offical canon for sequals (as previously stated who ever said the N7 had to be shepard?), so unless you are secretly a writer don't say anyting IS anything, you don't know and will look like a **** if bioware says none of it is true. It is not about "getting" the ending as you are just assuming you are right about how you see it. Aruging with each other is stupid, those who like the endings as they are may be in our position later if bioware planned an ending dlc or are making one due to all the feedback.

Modifié par Kylar616, 14 mars 2012 - 12:39 .

[Lethys1]

I should get it after playing three games, spending upwards of $200 on this game.  I know this world and lore far better than I should because I have other responsibilities to deal with in my life.

And somehow I have no idea what happened.  I can't explain it.  Either Saren it up, TIM it up, or shoot and destroy the Reapers; why are THESE the choices?????

Note that the middle choice renders all actions taken in the first game meaningless because Saren would have done the same thing.

[jwillis7]

So i have not read all of the pages so if this has been said, my bad.

my problem with the "hints" that it was a dream are that, i can’t trust that what i am seeing is supposed to be in game or is a bug in the code. Like in DA2 it did not matter who you had a relationship with in the epilogue it said you were with Isabella. So my Shep having scars and seeing Liara with Jeff, when she should have been on the ground next to me, are not big enough hints.

I like this theory, if and only if, the ending DLC is free and they waited a while to force a break in the game play, which would be genius.

I know OP that you said you have seen episodic games coming where you play for your access to the story. That is fine but only when the game is sold as such. Never ever would it be ok to sell a game as a complete game just to find out the ending is missing.

i know it has been said before but i'm saying it again.. Even if the indoctrination stuff is right, and again i like it, the game is not over. shep needs to use an omni gel and get up . the reapers are still atacking, the crucible is moving into place GET UP. this is not a new chapter DLC we are talking about this is the conclusion of what i have just spent 30 hours, not counting however many it took to get GR to 100, to accomplish GET UP

[K_Tabris]

Tiax Rules All wrote...


thats your opinion. and shepard only dies in the wrong endings. the ones where you dont choose to destroy the reapers. otherwise, hes alive and ready for dlc.

That's assuming s/he survived the explosion in the destroy ending, as well as the fall to earth from orbit?  Give me a break, Shepard is dead in all three endings.

[NPH11]

So, again, instead of shipping with a poor ending, they shipped without an ending.

That is just as bad, if not worse. Especially if they make us pay for the "real" ending.

[Stakis]

i understand taix´s pov, it makes sense, and in a hallucination theory i think its pretty much common sense the destroy end is the one that make us " win ".

but... first of all its still bad that a company like bioware releases a end like this, and being alive in the rubble pretty much takes us back to the basic complaint of most of us, there is no closure.

so your alive and ? everyone around you is dead, TIM is prob also alive, you still need to go to the citadel to open its arms so the crucible works, honestly... to many questions, and asking us to buy a DLC to get the answers is something that i am pretty sure will hurt bioware in a way they are not thinking its possible.

another funny thing id like to add is that i dont believe you need 4000 ems to get shepard alive trough the destroy ending, messing around with the gibbs editor i noticed the last save i have says " lives to fight another day " and i only had 3500 EMS, the " chest breathing thing " is prob a bonus you get for having 4k , nothing more.

[Dr_Hello]

One thing that is true is:

People are not understanding that the EMS plays an important role in ME3, and that's where the stats come into play.

Having 4000++ EMS (if you manage to persuade the Illusive Man in the final dialogue with him) or 5000++ EMS (if you aren't able to persuade TIM based on the paragon/renegade points) and choosing 'Destroy Reapers' out of the 3 choices will give you the ending whereby Shepard awakens at the very end. He passed the indoctrination trial, it's a small victory, 'an' ending, but the battle isn't over yet !! 

This only thing that remains confusing however - it could be trivial - is, if that was the case, why BW chose to have Shepard waking up in a generic N7 armor and helmet which wouldn't match the gamer's Shepard's custom armor. (And yes I understand the difference between pre-rendered and in-game graphics)
Is it because BW didn't want to make it too obvious that it's your Shepard awakening?! or it's another N7 soldier which will pick up the fight?!  One answer leads to more questions.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 14 mars 2012 - 12:48 .

[mrbauxjangles]

I get it I just feel like they sold me a game that wasn't finished I want the real ending and not have to pay more for it cause they want to milk a game

[The_Mad_Fiddler]

Not going to lie, this really cleared a lot of issues up.

I didn't hate the ending, it just didn't make sense, until now. I thought the "indoctrination theory" was really clever, but it still made me wonder about the mass relays and the Normandy. And while I'm still not 100% clear on those issues, the fact it was a dream and it was more symbolic helps to connect the dots.

I will say this whole experience has been very interesting .

[hosen17]

Not sure if I repeat what someone else said already, but it's getting late and I don't have the time to read through all 34 pages, especially since some of the posts look like they could pass as novels.

The theory seems to be plausible, sure, and I guess BioWare could pick it up and make a DLC based on the "Destroy" choice being a defiant stand of Shep, averting the full efects of indoctrination or something of the sort. I'm all for a free Patch/DLC that gives us an ending we'd be happy with (not saying it needs to be all sunshine, bunnies and blue children, just something... that fits).

What my beef with the ending is is the fact that all the stuff we were promissed, the many variations of the endings, closure, feeling that the story truly came to an end etc, weren't realised by the time the game was 'ready'. When I bought ME3, I expected a game with a beginning, a middle part and a finale. What I got was a beginning, a middle part and some kind of Deus Ex rip-off conclusion not really suited for the game. Sure, a synthetic vs. organics conflict is an interesting premise, but that isn't what ME is about, not in my eyes at least. The Quarian-Geth conflict was just as much a theme as the Genophage, an interesting side story to the overall conflict between the races of the galaxy and the Reapers.

Now, I personaly believe that BioWare was happy with the way the game ended, otherwise there'd be SOME kind of clue about a future DLC/Patch/whatever coming out BEFORE the games release. Instead, all we get are (still unconfirmed) theories we came up with ourselves.

[medusa_hair]

Well, all of this is very interesting but I think BS. I had high EMS (at least 3300) and my Shepard didn't wake up. In fact I didn't know that was an option until reading this thread. Thus it was a bit of a shock when, after the stargazer section, there is my Shepard on the bridge. I found that to be more upsetting, honestly, because for me she was dead. I figured all along she would die at the end anyway. The game wasn't all sweetness and light; there was tragedy and death, and she was living on borrowed time anyway, having died once before. I was pretty satisfied with it until I read this thread and realized she could wake up...that's what I get for reading forums! Does anyone know the minimum amount for her to wake up?

[TheBandit554]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Don't insult our intelligence, OP. I didn't want to see Shepard die in every possible ending. The lack of choice through the illusion of choice is ridiculous, lazy and a slap in the face to us fans who have spent countless hours playing our Shepards since 2007

thats your opinion. and shepard only dies in the wrong endings. the ones where you dont choose to destroy the reapers. otherwise, hes alive and ready for dlc.

Does not every tale and life end in death and sacrifice? Frankly, Shepard went out in the best way possible, uniting and inspiring a whole galaxy, then martyring himself fighting for his ideals and life. Shepard represents more than just a soldier you play as, or for that matter you yourself, but as a legend, a legend that you guided. But then you say; "well, my choices didnt matter, I was just told, 'OH HAI, I'm a god/deity/magically being destroying your world! Would you like a red, green, or blue beam?". All I have to say is do we pick how we die? Absolutly not, we simply choose how we got to our story's end. Think back upon your experiences as Shepard. What did you do with them? How did you live? Who were your friends? Your enemies? Your love? That's what Bioware wanted, for us to think, not see some badass hollywood final fight or fairytale happily-ever-after, nor a silly after credits text epilogue. No, they left it so we could shape Mass Effect in our minds. Why? Because WE ARE MASS EFFECT, we have been our own storytellers from the beginning. Just wait, there will be DLC, and it will be great.

Side note: I'd really rather have a DLC where it adds squadmates back, or Omega take back, or something worthwhile that they put effort into. NOT some DLC that "fixes" the ending just because people can't see past the wall they were driven into and the cliffhanger they were left with. IT WAS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY. Why then? Because there are so many possibilities for DLC and future games and maybe an MMO now. It was the only ending for the series, it couldn't end with a happily ever after or hollywood badass scene. No, that would not be Mass Effect.

[kato42]

Skimmed the original post. This has story logic to it. It also explains why the post credit autosave pushes you back to just before you launch the attack on the Cerberus base. You can go back and try to get more resources for the final fight, thus to push you up to the 5000 point.

So in that regard it makes sense.

BUT, from a story TELLING point of view, and from a BUSINESS point of view, it is really bad.

From a story telling viewpoint it is offensively weak to leave it at this point. You don't do that without having a 'to be continued' or SOMETHING to let the audience know that it isn't the end. You don't just stop there because - as we've seen - it REALLY pisses off the audience.

And from a business view its damned risky. If nothing else it is really insulting to your customers - and that makes it risky.

We can hope this is true, in fact it makes me feel a little better to think this may be true (the endings surprised me by how much they annoyed me), and that they release it as a FREE download with a bit of an apology to say "sorry about that, we wanted to get a strong emotional response, but not jerk you around" (although they should be saying that NOW, not later). They might be able to get forgiveness from their customers then.

But charging for it will be really insulting, and a lack of a statement is pretty insulting as well.

Assuming this is true, and we aren't grasping at straws.

[Rockpopple]

This.... actually makes a lot of sense, OP. I'm gonna choose to believe this until presented with a better theory.

I'm sorry about all the hate you're getting. Obviously this is a sensitive issue to some folks. Overly sensitive, I'd say.

But wow, great theory. I'm ashamed to say that I fell for BioWare's indoctrination and chose the not-Renegade option because I was playing a Paragon Shepard. But it seems it was all a head fake. I should have destroyed those damned Reapers when I had the chance.

[Morty Smith]

Yeah, right. No, next.

[El_Draque]

 so OP, if this theory is true...and it seems very likely that it is..we paid for an incomplete game? its supposed to end Shepards story..so that means Shepard is done..but this ending would mean they are going into a LONG DLC or ME4...If they planned to release DLC to finish the ending than they are just jackasses. 

[Tiax Rules All]

El_Draque wrote...

 so OP, if this theory is true...and it seems very likely that it is..we paid for an incomplete game? its supposed to end Shepards story..so that means Shepard is done..but this ending would mean they are going into a LONG DLC or ME4...If they planned to release DLC to finish the ending than they are just jackasses. 

so why direct this at me. I dont know the shadyness of this whole thing. I have stated i believe that post-ending dlc is almost definately coming.