1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Hashishim]

Also for most of the decisions we made in ME1 and ME2, we did see the endings or closures of it in the side missions and stuff, we just never really see a true ending of the main plot throughout the series which is the Reapers, and what happened after the reapers.

[tornblade]

The issue is not "not getting it". The issue I (and many others have) is that what was provided as the end of the game we purchased was poorly done. It can be rationalized in numerous ways, but what it falls down to is that even with the "perfect choice" for an "ending" we're left with a bad taste in our mouth. The hallicination theories are great and all, but even then that's done in poor taste by Bioware. If this "wasn't the end" then it needed to be made clear. I didn't pay $80 and invest as much of my time into this amazing series to get left at the end* with such a crummy, plot holed excuse as we got.

* - end of the retail game I purchased - further DLC that may/may not be in the works to "fix" this does not count.

[Rawgrim]

Replayability just got better too. I know i want to replay the whole series now, and constantly look for info about indoctrination, and I will also pay very very close attention when playing ME3 again.

[Dr_Hello]

JamalXIX wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

JamalXIX wrote...

The problem with tiax's argument is the unresolved plotlines.
If the allied fleets defeated the reapers just by conventional combat, why did we bother getting the crucible in the first place? In fact, if it was all a hallucination, we still don't know what it does, we still don't know what the catalyst is nor what it does, and the arms to the citadel are not opened, because nobody made it to the transportation beam. Therefore, nobody gets to use it either.

We don't know any of that yet. That's what a DLC could/would be able to tell us.
Let's just assume that while Shepard was going through the indoctrination trial, time in real world was frozen. Like how time passes in a dream compared to time in real world.

One thing we know, based from the Stargazer scene, is they won. How? remains to be seen.

In other words, Bioware did it on purpose to sell more DLC?
It does seem like a brilliant piece of marketing strategy, I know a lot of people will buy it.
It's just sad that it's come to this; leaving the ending of the game out except "the allies defeated the reapers". (as Stargazer basically says)
Everybody knows Shepard is going to win; everybody knows the allies win. If the only way this story could end was by the reapers winning, then I think we would just not play it in the first place. 
If they intended to not have an ending to the game, they won't give us one for free...
Are they going to say: "Hahahaha, you certainly got us there; we indocrinated all of you! Oh well, here is the REAL ending". Messing with the fans in such an obvious way is just a bad idea.

We don't know if that DLC will have a price tag or be free yet. Obviously it'd be a disservice to the gamers especially the fans who care if it isn't free, given the ordeal fans went through with the ME3 'fake?' endings.

[Denora]

I do actually enjoy most of the ending and I understood that as indoctrination myself, however the lack of closure is still the real issue at hand, at least to me. I understand this leaves room for DLC if Shepard broke free of indoctrination, however I feel they should've included more closure in the end rather then leave it up in the air and have the possibility of DLC explain it at a future time.

I was happy when ME3 was initially delayed to March 6th, I thought to myself, the longer Bioware takes the better the game would be, but I think they should've taken more time to do it. Personally I blame EA, but that's just my opinion.

[Tiax Rules All]

tornblade wrote...

The issue is not "not getting it". The issue I (and many others have) is that what was provided as the end of the game we purchased was poorly done. It can be rationalized in numerous ways, but what it falls down to is that even with the "perfect choice" for an "ending" we're left with a bad taste in our mouth. The hallicination theories are great and all, but even then that's done in poor taste by Bioware. If this "wasn't the end" then it needed to be made clear. I didn't pay $80 and invest as much of my time into this amazing series to get left at the end* with such a crummy, plot holed excuse as we got.

* - end of the retail game I purchased - further DLC that may/may not be in the works to "fix" this does not count.

as for a bad taste in you mouth, thats an opinion. I think stranding normandy on planet, blowing up relays, TIM and anderson at crucible etc etc.. are what left me with the bad taste. It was all just wrong, and full of plot holes...

then i realized (read OP) and now, that taste is gone. The shep dying or essentially losing at the end made me any more angry, in fact it made the eding real. all that other stuff was the BS and was purposely odd.

Purposely odd to get you to reject the face value endings, this is what they are for. So when you realise sheps down for the count and the emotion comes when you find out that you are living out sheps last moments in his head. Esenscially YOU are dying too, not ust this character. the fact the the illusions are not spelled out for you is because the are not spelled out for shepard. Shep believes this is happening, so YOU believe this is happening...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

[Gallron395]

 To the op I must say this as well



(go to 0:20)

Srsly mind blown. I had read about the theory and the living Shepard but until I saw the op's explanation I thought it was some interpretation of stargazer. 

After I read the op's post, I loaded up my restart save (right where the hallucination begins) and watched for the signs of indoctrination, or of a halucination, which are often manifestations of our subconcious (like the little boy for shepard). And holy hell it makes a lot of sense from that point of view. It explains why so many details, like the gun, his choices, his speech, all seem very out of place compared to the whole game. Plus, when you take the right path and destroy the reapers (which is what the game literally said over and over), I finally found the vid of Shepard taking a breath (must have an effective military strength of 4000+), of course after all the illogical citadel+relays destroyed and illogical Normandy jumping for some reason and crashing. 

Imo I think he was hallucinating in a sort of death moment or coma more than being indoctrinated. As many have said, he didn't really have enough constant exposure to reapers. But I guess this remains to be seen. 

So, op, thank you. No matter what happens now with dlc or whatever, at least I know the ending actually is not even in me3, for now. All that "ending" is is another choice that either you get right or wrong.

Although now I feel lame for three reasons. One, I have to buy the dlc, which I would have anyway cause the game is awesome, but feeling almost forced to is lame. Two, because for a while I posted about wanting clarity for the ending, though I still do, and three, because you made me feel indoctrinated  I chose synthesis my first time. 

Modifié par Gallron395, 14 mars 2012 - 02:10 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Rawgrim wrote...

Replayability just got better too. I know i want to replay the whole series now, and constantly look for info about indoctrination, and I will also pay very very close attention when playing ME3 again.

yes, see this is what BIoware wants, this is what we see. Others seem to get to caught up in the fact that its not a happy ending, Tragic and deep and thoughtful illicits more emotion from me though then... and we all went skipping into the sunset...

[jwillis7]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

but nothing is fixed, the arms to the citadel are still down and the reapers are still reapin

[theycallmeryan]

Even if he was indoctrinated, then he still would've woken up in the "bad" endings and slaughtered his crew or something that the Reapers told you. The Indoctrination Theory has many holes in it IMO.

[Tiax Rules All]

Gallron395 wrote...

 To the op I must say this as well



(go to 0:20)

Srsly mind blown. I had read about the theory and the living Shepard but until I say the op's explanation I thought it was some interpretation of stargazer. 

After I read the op's post, I loaded up my restart save (right where the hallucination begins) and watched for the signs of indoctrination, or of a halucination, which are often manifestations of or subconcious (like the little boy for shepard). And holy hell it makes a lot of sense from that point of view. Plus, when you take the right path and destroy the reapers (which is what the game literally said over and over), I finally found the vid of Shepard taking a breath (must have an effective military strength of 4000+

So, op, thank you. No matter what happens now with dlc or whatever, at least I know the ending actually is not even in me3, for now. All that "ending" is is another choice that either you get right or wrong.

Although now I feel lame for three reasons. One, I have to buy the dlc, which I would have anyway cause the game is awesome, but feeling almost forced to is lame. Two, because for a while I posted about wanting clarity for the ending, though I still do, and three, because you made me feel indoctrinated  I chose synthesis my first time. 

I think most people chose indoctrination at the end. unwillingly of course but thats the brilliance. seeing shep breathe has flipped your world around and got you right back onto obsessing about the ending. working as intended.

[novaseeker]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

The problem with OP and others like him: You know what? It's a great way to rationalize the ending if that works for you. However, not everyone is going to interpret the endings the same, just as people interpret the character and personality of Shepard differently.

I think this was Mac Walter's intent in writing these endings. It's purposely ambiguous so the player can fill in the blanks. I choose to take most of it at face value, and saw my Shepard die. Tiax Rules all and others take it as one long dream sequence. That's fine, too. Whatever gets you to find closure in the Mass Effect series.

The thing is it's not "ambiguous" -- it is, if not a hallucination sequence, filled with things that make no sense.  Breathing in space.  Normandy running away from wave released by Citadel with Shepard's squadmates (timing is virtually impossible, never mind that they are likely as "dead" as Shepard is in front of the beam).  Where is your proper armor?  Where is your proper gun?  And on and on.

These aren't "ambuguities", they are things that make no sense.  It would be highly, highly unlikely that a company like BioWare would intentionally have so many glaring aspects in the ending of its flagship franchise which simply make no sense, unless we're supposed to take that as a series of clues that this is not "real" the way the rest of the game is "real".

Interpretations are one thing, but I have yet to see interpretations of the endings that explain these elements that make no sense other than the indoctrination/hallucination interpretation -- apart from hand-waving and saying "it's ambiguous".  It's not ambiguous.  It's non-sensical.

[Tiax Rules All]

theycallmeryan wrote...

Even if he was indoctrinated, then he still would've woken up in the "bad" endings and slaughtered his crew or something that the Reapers told you. The Indoctrination Theory has many holes in it IMO.

showing that would have been fail. implying that is where its at.

Obvoius is boring...

(above is all my opinion.)

[815Sox]

1. How do we know it is London?

2. Didn't the radio chatter come before Shepard got up? I just interpreted it as an misread of the situation.. Which often occurs in war.

3. Why wouldn't Shepard wake up in the other endings?


I appreciate the effort and thought, but I just do not see it. 

Modifié par 815Sox, 14 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[JasonTan87]

novaseeker wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

I think this was Mac Walter's intent in writing these endings. It's purposely ambiguous so the player can fill in the blanks. I choose to take most of it at face value, and saw my Shepard die. Tiax Rules all and others take it as one long dream sequence. That's fine, too. Whatever gets you to find closure in the Mass Effect series.

The thing is it's not "ambiguous" -- it is, if not a hallucination sequence, filled with things that make no sense.  Breathing in space.  Normandy running away from wave released by Citadel with Shepard's squadmates (timing is virtually impossible, never mind that they are likely as "dead" as Shepard is in front of the beam).  Where is your proper armor?  Where is your proper gun?  And on and on.

Interpretations are one thing, but I have yet to see interpretations of the endings that explain these elements that make no sense other than the indoctrination/hallucination interpretation -- apart from hand-waving and saying "it's ambiguous".  It's not ambiguous.  It's non-sensical.

If the writer has to rely on a 'panel' to 'interpret' his ending for us, there's something really wrong with the writing.

[JasonTan87]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

theycallmeryan wrote...

Even if he was indoctrinated, then he still would've woken up in the "bad" endings and slaughtered his crew or something that the Reapers told you. The Indoctrination Theory has many holes in it IMO.

showing that would have been fail. implying that is where its at.

Obvoius is boring...

(above is all my opinion.)

Implying doesn't do anything if the implications are lost in the course of the narrative.

The very fact that we're standing here and arguing over something that might or might not be in the artistic vision shows that the delivery of the artisitc vision itself through the narrative is problematic.

I worry that we're giving the writer more credit than we should.

[Amialis666]

This a theory I have...
We all know that they are planning to introduce a new character for Mass Effect 4 (assume it isn't an MMO), maybe this is their chance to get us familiar with him.

If it were similar to awakening, there is the option to either play as the hero of ferelden (If we survived the darkspawn attack) or create a new character.

Similar thing with this. If we failed to fight off the indoctrination, commander shepard 2.0 takes over for commander shepard. If we managed to fight it off, than we continue with them.

Or the entire thing could be about CS2.0.
Or CS2.0 helping shepard.

It certainly would be an interesting way to continue the franchise.
It would make sure with the next game, the character is heroic. 'The one who stopped/helped stop the reapers."

Not that I think there is any merit to this idea. Just completely bored.

[ashwind]

I have chosen Paragon options throughout the series. But the OP has a point, I do not necessary think that it is indoctrination because umm why would the Reapers want to indoctrinate Shepard when Shepard is already near dead. I think it is Shepard's hallucination after he lost consciousness.

Oh, and look at the eyes of the Reaper that hit Shepard, it was Harbinger.

The ending is funny to me, I actually took about 2 hours before choosing, left the computer on, went smoking, pondering, etc. I finally chose the Destroy ending because even IF the last moments were real:

1. Why should I trust the "Whatever that is"? I mean if it were Harbinger talking to me, I would have more reason to trust him because at least Harbinger has been truthful to me throughout ME2; "I want to harvest you if possible but will kill you if I have to." But the Catalyst? What the hell is it!?

2. Remember the Geth consensus? A virtual world was conjured to make things "familiar" to Shepard. What Shepard is seeing at the end really resembles that.

3. I have no problem that Anderson reached there before me BUT Anderson reached there unscratched! That raises an alarm. Shepard is wearing combat armor and Anderson is not, how could Anderson be there unscratched!! Or mostly unscratched!

4. Do not think the Catalyst is an AI, think that the Citadel IS the catalyst because the Citadel is the largest of Mass Relays, the mother of all Mass Relays and if you want to fire a weapon and direct its energy to all Mass Relays, you have to use the Citadel as a "Catalyst"

I agree that Bioware could/should have done a better job with the endings.

[Hashishim]

also i just realized something from the onset the developers/creators of the game has all said that they want to create something different! and something that has never been done before, well I guess if they do this then this is it!

This has never happened in a game before, in such a scale. They took a risk with making decisions pass on throughout the game, it worked. Maybe they taking a risk here to. Obviously though aswell EA etc wanting to make money of it.

The game at the end is still brilliant! And I want to see if there are any other DLC's

[Rawgrim]

This whole theory, if correct, also means that Anderson and The illusive Man are both still about. An expansion\\DLC could be made where Shep tracks him down once and for all. The reapers are gone, but Cerberus still has reaper technology. Best to be on the safe side.

[Gallron395]

JasonTan87 wrote...]

I worry that we're giving the writer more credit than we should.

Hang on. There is nothing ambiguous about the end seen where you see Shepard take a breath. There is no explanation for how he could be on earth breathing than he never left earth after being zapped. Thereby the entire sequence between the zapping and breathing on earth, if you made the right choice, is completely null, aside from making the right choice to beat the mental game of staying alive. 

As the op said, it shows that bioware had brilliant writers. They indoctrinated the players. 

[jwillis7]

Gallron395 wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...]

I worry that we're giving the writer more credit than we should.

Hang on. There is nothing ambiguous about the end seen where you see Shepard take a breath. There is no explanation for how he could be on earth breathing than he never left earth after being zapped. Thereby the entire sequence between the zapping and breathing on earth, if you made the right choice, is completely null, aside from making the right choice to beat the mental game of staying alive. 

As the op said, it shows that bioware had brilliant writers. They indoctrinated the players. 

except that nothing is done, the reapers are still there and the crucible is not ready, so we have not had the ending yet if that theory is true

[Tiax Rules All]

815Sox wrote...

1. How do we know it is London?

2. Didn't the radio chatter come before Shepard got up? I just interpreted it as an misread of the situation.. Which often occurs in war.

3. Why wouldn't Shepard wake up in the other endings?


I appreciate the effort and thought, but I just do not see it. 

1   /its London

2 he never truley gets up hes hearing the radio of some body lying next to him. the who entire charge scene troops are completely decimated and littering the field. but comes in directly at the point where shep is now "hallucinating" the slow motion gun walk to the beam.

3 he did not choose to detroy the reapers in his mind. destroy is shep rejecting indoctrination, and killing reapers (in his head)  the other two make you comprimise with the reapers, which is actually you giving into indoctrination.

and if you say. thats not what i see, then i say. Indoctrination is supposed to some really dark and complicated ****. the reapers never annouce "hey im gonna try to steal your mind now... you game"?

they trick, lie, manipulate your mind at the subconscience. you think that control and synth are "pretty damn close to the destroy ending" or not that bad.

But thats just it. these are game over endings, you fail. TIM and or catalyst convince you to leave you moral objective of killing the reapers. THE ONE THING THAT SHOULD BE CRYSTAL CLEAR FROM THE WHOLE SERIES. they convince you to change. YOU the player, have been indoctrinated by the reapers. The game has just shown you the POWER of indoctrination and you didnt even know that you fail, until you see shep wake at detroy ending. then things are suppose to become clearer.

[novaseeker]

JasonTan87 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

I think this was Mac Walter's intent in writing these endings. It's purposely ambiguous so the player can fill in the blanks. I choose to take most of it at face value, and saw my Shepard die. Tiax Rules all and others take it as one long dream sequence. That's fine, too. Whatever gets you to find closure in the Mass Effect series.

The thing is it's not "ambiguous" -- it is, if not a hallucination sequence, filled with things that make no sense.  Breathing in space.  Normandy running away from wave released by Citadel with Shepard's squadmates (timing is virtually impossible, never mind that they are likely as "dead" as Shepard is in front of the beam).  Where is your proper armor?  Where is your proper gun?  And on and on.

Interpretations are one thing, but I have yet to see interpretations of the endings that explain these elements that make no sense other than the indoctrination/hallucination interpretation -- apart from hand-waving and saying "it's ambiguous".  It's not ambiguous.  It's non-sensical.

If the writer has to rely on a 'panel' to 'interpret' his ending for us, there's something really wrong with the writing.

The tricky thing, I think, is that they were trying to convey the experience of being indoctrinated (or choosing to resist it) to the player.  If that particular hat was "tipped" in a more obvious way in the game itself, then the whole effort falls apart, because then the player is no longer subject to experiencing indoctrination, but just metagames the sequence.  As I am sure people are doing now after reading these threads on the forums.  But to tip that hat in the game itself would destroy the immersion of the indoctrination sequence (something which seems to have "worked" quite well).

The "cost" of doing that was to open themselves up to your kind of critique.

[Tiax Rules All]

jwillis7 wrote...

Gallron395 wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...]

I worry that we're giving the writer more credit than we should.

Hang on. There is nothing ambiguous about the end seen where you see Shepard take a breath. There is no explanation for how he could be on earth breathing than he never left earth after being zapped. Thereby the entire sequence between the zapping and breathing on earth, if you made the right choice, is completely null, aside from making the right choice to beat the mental game of staying alive. 

As the op said, it shows that bioware had brilliant writers. They indoctrinated the players. 

except that nothing is done, the reapers are still there and the crucible is not ready, so we have not had the ending yet if that theory is true

thier goal was to give you the ending they created, not answer every last question in list format. They chose a more organic ending then a cookie cutter one.

people beckon for creative writing and out of the box games all the time. Bioware then comes out with an edgy and balsy ending and people just either dismiss it on principal or realise that what they really wanted all along was safe, usual, reliable, rubber stamped endings.