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[Tiax Rules All]

DP

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 14 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Smp]

The theories about the ending are creative and interesting to read, and this one is well put. The problem, for me, is that the ending does not conclude such a wonderful game in a satisfying way, or at all. Please note, I am not saying that the game should be concluded in a way that I find personally satisfying just because I SAID SO, darn it! I am just saying that when you need to rationalise the ending of a game - a game! - to make it tolerable, it takes away from the enjoyment of it.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, the hallucination/dream explanation means that there is actually no conclusion to this story at all! The Reapers are not destroyed, the galaxy is not saved. Worse! Shepard did not die in the attempt thus concluding his/her story, but is still alive to do what? What? We don't know. If it is a hallucination/dream/whatever, it did not happen at all - the last few minutes of the game did not occur! Shepard ran to the beam...THE END. I find that unsatisfying because it is a mid-sentence finish, and not a conclusion to the great story that is ME. If it was a book, I would throw it against the wall in frustration. (Admittedly,"it was just a dream" explanations drive me up the wall so it might account for my reaction)

Theories of indoctrination or not, the ending remains difficult to accept, for me - not because I do not understand what they might have been trying to do, but because it is personally unsatisfying. An ending, sure, but not a conclusion. So, I do not love this ending because of what Bioware did, but I am happy for those who do love it ( and a bit jealous that I cannot just force myself to do the same).

[Tiax Rules All]

novaseeker wrote...

The tricky thing, I think, is that they were trying to convey the experience of being indoctrinated (or choosing to resist it) to the player.  If that particular hat was "tipped" in a more obvious way in the game itself, then the whole effort falls apart, because then the player is no longer subject to experiencing indoctrination, but just metagames the sequence.  As I am sure people are doing now after reading these threads on the forums.  But to tip that hat in the game itself would destroy the immersion of the indoctrination sequence (something which seems to have "worked" quite well).

The "cost" of doing that was to open themselves up to your kind of critique.

yes, this does seem to be the dilema though.

even if i wasnt completely satisfied with the ending, I would not ever expect it to be a certain way. or written to suit me. I have played my share of badly written endings and at the end you just shrug and move on. I just dont see where people get off demanding a re-write. I mean come on ,its pretty absurd.

not implying you did any of the above.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Aduro wrote...

First, even if the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory is correct, it is far too ambiguous on its own. The fact that it took a time and the collective work of many fans to make it fit in properly suggests that, if it is the truth, it was not presented well enough to be entirely convincing - save for those clutching at straws. This is poor story-telling.

Exactly. If they wanted it to be a case of "The Reapers are attempting to indoctrinate you, and the only way to avoid that is to choose the first option", then there should have been a scene after Shepard's choice that showed what happened next - not in the vague spacefuture time of the kid talking to his granddad, but in the immediate aftermath. Having the blink-and-you-miss-it, maybe you might get this scene of Shepard taking a breath while mostly out of camera doesn't cut it for that.

This game did not end. It just stopped.

[Hashishim]

must also see this other point, the flashbacks you see Anderson, Joker Liara. When you have flashbacks like that it, it simulated that you where losing your life, as that what we assume happens when we die. At the same time by destroying the reapers you fought your will and they lost that control of you and you survive it.

The game also tried to show that shepard like all Humans is infallible but with willpower you can still be best you can. Didnt the developers mention that they want to bring out shepards Human side in it? And not just portray always winning commander where planets can be thrown at him and he will survive.

Hence the defeat at Thessia, showed a little of his human side that all people no matter hwo good they are can get angry, can also be defeated but the humanity part of it, what we do next.

Also

[novaseeker]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

The tricky thing, I think, is that they were trying to convey the experience of being indoctrinated (or choosing to resist it) to the player.  If that particular hat was "tipped" in a more obvious way in the game itself, then the whole effort falls apart, because then the player is no longer subject to experiencing indoctrination, but just metagames the sequence.  As I am sure people are doing now after reading these threads on the forums.  But to tip that hat in the game itself would destroy the immersion of the indoctrination sequence (something which seems to have "worked" quite well).

The "cost" of doing that was to open themselves up to your kind of critique.

yes, this does seem to be the dilema though.

even if i wasnt completely satisfied with the ending, I would not ever expect it to be a certain way. or written to suit me. I have played my share of badly written endings and at the end you just shrug and move on. I just dont see where people get off demanding a re-write. I mean come on ,its pretty absurd.

not implying you did any of the above.

I agree.  

In my opinion, the writing of the ending was brilliant.  It did what it intended to do (convey the experience of indoctrination and resistance) almost perfectly, really.  It would have been very hard for them to convey that properly in a way that, at the same time, basically explained what they were doing -- it would ruin what they were trying to do in the first place.

It doesn't need to be rewritten -- it works well.  I can understand the disappointment with the lack of closure and so forth, and perhaps that will be addressed in DLC.

[Samuel Beckenbach]

this is really fascinating but even if its true theyre still forcing us to shovel out more money to buy dlc to "finish the game" which is ******** also i doubt that group of writers that cant even write up more than 2 off mission squadmember coversations per game have the imagination to pull something as brilliant as that off

[jwillis7]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

jwillis7 wrote...

Gallron395 wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...]

I worry that we're giving the writer more credit than we should.

Hang on. There is nothing ambiguous about the end seen where you see Shepard take a breath. There is no explanation for how he could be on earth breathing than he never left earth after being zapped. Thereby the entire sequence between the zapping and breathing on earth, if you made the right choice, is completely null, aside from making the right choice to beat the mental game of staying alive. 

As the op said, it shows that bioware had brilliant writers. They indoctrinated the players. 

except that nothing is done, the reapers are still there and the crucible is not ready, so we have not had the ending yet if that theory is true

thier goal was to give you the ending they created, not answer every last question in list format. They chose a more organic ending then a cookie cutter one.

people beckon for creative writing and out of the box games all the time. Bioware then comes out with an edgy and balsy ending and people just either dismiss it on principal or realise that what they really wanted all along was safe, usual, reliable, rubber stamped endings.

i understand that its ballsy, but if you take it all at face value, the three options give you and end to the war, not a well explained end but and end none the less.

if we take the indoctrinated theory, which again i like, after he wakes up the war is still going, nothing is done with the game except you broke the indoctronation.  who cares  oooooo

so as it stands if i was to recap the game

well it was awesome i had to go and gather all the armies and we went to attack earth, the scene were we came out of the mass relay was awesome,  then we got to earth we had to make it to a portal to activate the huge spacestation so we could fight the reapers......then i realized the reapers were trying to trick me and i broke free of there mind game

but what happend....

o i have no idea  haha the main character broke indoctronation, and is alive...

but the war...

(shrug)

[DashRunner92]

You are looking way too into the endings. Beside the fact that the end was obviously rushed because of unpolished textures and poor dialogue, it was also copy and pasted from the Deus Ex 1 ending.

[Tiax Rules All]

Smp wrote...

The theories about the ending are creative and interesting to read, and this one is well put. The problem, for me, is that the ending does not conclude such a wonderful game in a satisfying way, or at all. Please note, I am not saying that the game should be concluded in a way that I find personally satisfying just because I SAID SO, darn it! I am just saying that when you need to rationalise the ending of a game - a game! - to make it tolerable, it takes away from the enjoyment of it.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, the hallucination/dream explanation means that there is actually no conclusion to this story at all! The Reapers are not destroyed, the galaxy is not saved. Worse! Shepard did not die in the attempt thus concluding his/her story, but is still alive to do what? What? We don't know. If it is a hallucination/dream/whatever, it did not happen at all - the last few minutes of the game did not occur! Shepard ran to the beam...THE END. I find that unsatisfying because it is a mid-sentence finish, and not a conclusion to the great story that is ME. If it was a book, I would throw it against the wall in frustration. (Admittedly,"it was just a dream" explanations drive me up the wall so it might account for my reaction)

Theories of indoctrination or not, the ending remains difficult to accept, for me - not because I do not understand what they might have been trying to do, but because it is personally unsatisfying. An ending, sure, but not a conclusion. So, I do not love this ending because of what Bioware did, but I am happy for those who do love it ( and a bit jealous that I cannot just force myself to do the same).

as for the inconclusiveness. well your out of luck, its a vague ending, it just may not be for you. nobody can help you there.

this isnt your typical "it was just a dream" ending fail.      this is fighting indoctrination. I would say that indoctrination is basically is own villain in the series. it was always shown, talked about, questioned and so forth in the series. and they snuck it in the game as a hidden plot twist. So hidden that the player never knows this is happening first time around without foreknowledge and like myself. The game actually indoctrinates you in real time. and you are really none the wiser untill you question the very nature of everthing you saw.  sheps breath is the catalyst for the player to question reality. MY mind was blown, others had that too. I truly had a strong reaction to the manipulation that the game had over me.

If the game said shep married liara, they had kids, lived in toronto, blah blah... it would just be drab and anti-climatic. Sure you might have more of those details thrown at ya, but it wouldnt have done anything new. or tried to add anything to the game. it would have been as expected as a the new CoD game being beaten in 4 hours.

this stir has cause major discussion around the web. and for every one person who says, that sounds bad, i dont want that. there are 2 more people that say man i got to see this for myself.  negative pr can be turned to possitve pr, sometimes with no effort at all on the part of the marketing team.

[Tiax Rules All]

jwillis7 wrote...

i understand that its ballsy, but if you take it all at face value, the three options give you and end to the war, not a well explained end but and end none the less.

if we take the indoctrinated theory, which again i like, after he wakes up the war is still going, nothing is done with the game except you broke the indoctronation.  who cares  oooooo

so as it stands if i was to recap the game

well it was awesome i had to go and gather all the armies and we went to attack earth, the scene were we came out of the mass relay was awesome,  then we got to earth we had to make it to a portal to activate the huge spacestation so we could fight the reapers......then i realized the reapers were trying to trick me and i broke free of there mind game

but what happend....

o i have no idea  haha the main character broke indoctronation, and is alive...

but the war...

(shrug)

the story is obviously not over. you dont have to like it, you can feel cheated if you want. for me, this is all by design. they will have more ending, and all this is moot. the next rage will be over the price they charge for it. The bsn is nothing but predictable.

[Kloborgg711]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

The tricky thing, I think, is that they were trying to convey the experience of being indoctrinated (or choosing to resist it) to the player.  If that particular hat was "tipped" in a more obvious way in the game itself, then the whole effort falls apart, because then the player is no longer subject to experiencing indoctrination, but just metagames the sequence.  As I am sure people are doing now after reading these threads on the forums.  But to tip that hat in the game itself would destroy the immersion of the indoctrination sequence (something which seems to have "worked" quite well).

The "cost" of doing that was to open themselves up to your kind of critique.

yes, this does seem to be the dilema though.

even if i wasnt completely satisfied with the ending, I would not ever expect it to be a certain way. or written to suit me. I have played my share of badly written endings and at the end you just shrug and move on. I just dont see where people get off demanding a re-write. I mean come on ,its pretty absurd.

not implying you did any of the above.

I'm not demanding a re-write, I'm asking for one as a loyal fan that's given hundreds of dollars to the company.  That's where I "get off". I'm really glad you were able to shrug and move on, some of us really aren't able to. It hurts, it really does.

[Kloborgg711]

Tiax Rules All wrote...
the story is obviously not over

Obvious? Obvious to who? This is the last game of a trilogy. Sorry we're all so obtuse for not realizing the "obvious".
If Bioware released a paid DLC fixing the endings, we would get some (I think justified) complaints. However

1. The number of complaints would not even come close to the outrage over the endings right now.
2. The number of complaints would pale in comparison to the gratitudes most fans here would give, even it were paid.

[Tiax Rules All]

DashRunner92 wrote...

You are looking way too into the endings. Beside the fact that the end was obviously rushed because of unpolished textures and poor dialogue, it was also copy and pasted from the Deus Ex 1 ending.

you are not looking deep enough into the endings, see what i did there..

show me proof that counters my theory and i will consider it objectively, this thread is not the answer i contrived for myeslf, for my personal ending, Its what is shown said and documaneted in game.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 14 mars 2012 - 02:57 .

[bkp360]

Thanks for 'enlightening us unwashed masses'. It all feels so much better and makes perfect sense now. My God! Thank you for, well being you. We were all lost until your huge post (mostly unread) explained it all to us.

I feel so much better I'm gonna go buy 3 N7 hoodies, a Normandy Model and Dragon Age 2. I'll be signing up for TOR right now, and telling all my friends to do the same. Oh wait, I'll let you handle all those parts yourself OK?

[bkp360]

DashRunner92 wrote...

You are looking way too into the endings. Beside the fact that the end was obviously rushed because of unpolished textures and poor dialogue, it was also copy and pasted from the Deus Ex 1 ending.

I don't know about copy and paste from Desu Ex but I am pretty sure they copied and pasted that photo of Tali from Stock hahahahahhahahaha

[LDStaredown]

I have been reading a lot of these threads lately, and I have some things to say regarding the endings.
The Indoctrination Theory fits every plothole in the ending like a glove. It really does. I have yet do see a legitimate argument against it, to be honest. I read somewhere that there is writing on the wall when you reach the Citadel after the beam: "1M1" or something like that. Going by a simple code, this would read 1+(13th letter of the alphabet)+1=15. It is probaly the most futile longshot of them all, but Mass Effect 3 will be released globally on Mars 15th. If there is a company that has shown that they truly care about their fans, are capable of telling fantastic stories and would probably take a slight loss in return for a superior product, it's Bioware. Japan is probably a large portion of their fanbase, and by showing them the respect of delaying all endings until the entire world can experience them first- hand, they are doing a really noble thing that should be applauded by the rest.

So, the question to me is: would Bioware, who has a brilliant writing team and has proven to be the best in the industry regarding storytelling, allow the flagship of their company to be ended in such a way? Or is it that they truly and utterly care about their fans and wants everyone to experience the ending at the same time? And don't get me wrong - having to pay for the ending would be worse than settling with the ones we already have, but that is another issue.
I also read in a news article that the game was finished about 45 days ago, which is why I don't thing they rushed the ending, and have it waiting for us. Also: there was no final boss, no epic (physical) confrontation between Shepard and the oldest, largest and most feared Reaper of them all. No cutscene showing Garrus blowing the head of a Banshee from 100 meters away, no Liara destroying an overwhelming amount of husks and cannibals with her biotics, no Hackett commanding his forces to successfully take down a Reaper and so forth.
The ending as a whole is inconclusive, end exactly the opposite of what CH has promised. This is why we get an update to our systems on the 15th, giving us the final conclusion of the best game series I have ever played. If not, then **** them.

On a completely different note: I just noticed that before you fight your first husks in the game, you can actually see the kid running into the building where he is hiding the first time Shep meets him.

[CrimsonNephilim]

So based on this theory, which ending is better to get? The 4k ending with saving Anderson or the 5k ending where Anderson dies?

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 14 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[Rockpopple]

@CrimsonNephilim = Based on this theory, the best ending is the Destroy ending after getting over 4000 war assets so you get the extra "Breathe" scene at the end. That ending shows that Shepard broke Harbinger, or some Reaper's, Indoctrination and that his fight continues. What happens to Anderson doesn't matter, because that was all part of the Indoctrination process.

[Kloborgg711]

Modifié par Kloborgg711, 14 mars 2012 - 03:13 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
the story is obviously not over

Obvious? Obvious to who? This is the last game of a trilogy. Sorry we're all so obtuse for not realizing the "obvious".
If Bioware released a paid DLC fixing the endings, we would get some (I think justified) complaints. However

1. The number of complaints would not even come close to the outrage over the endings right now.
2. The number of complaints would pale in comparison to the gratitudes most fans here would give, even it were paid.

ME3 DLC is still part of ME3

they can still make you buy a new ending and not be "lying" about finishing the series in ME3

parse words like the professional sleazebags.

Bioware is never wrong, they will do what they want AND make you believe like they are the good guy.

I dont know what else to say, if i knew you, I would bet you, ill give you 10 bucks if its never released, you buy my dlc if it is.

it just seems almost required at this point..

guess i chose the wrong words,

[Tiax Rules All]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

So based on this theory, which ending is better to get? The 4k ending with saving Anderson or the 5k ending where Anderson dies?

you can still save anderson with over 5k btw,

[Kloborgg711]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
the story is obviously not over

Obvious? Obvious to who? This is the last game of a trilogy. Sorry we're all so obtuse for not realizing the "obvious".
If Bioware released a paid DLC fixing the endings, we would get some (I think justified) complaints. However

1. The number of complaints would not even come close to the outrage over the endings right now.
2. The number of complaints would pale in comparison to the gratitudes most fans here would give, even it were paid.

ME3 DLC is still part of ME3

they can still make you buy a new ending and not be "lying" about finishing the series in ME3

parse words like the professional sleazebags.

Bioware is never wrong, they will do what they want AND make you believe like they are the good guy.

I dont know what else to say, if i knew you, I would bet you, ill give you 10 bucks if its never released, you buy my dlc if it is.

it just seems almost required at this point..

guess i chose the wrong words,

I never said the idea of DLC is impossible. I said it's ridiculous to conclude that it's in any way definite or "obvious". 

[Pamine]

Rewatching the ending where Shepard lives, I think you may well be right.

But the thing is, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter whether everything was for real, or an hallucination, because it doesn't make the ending any worse. Either the ending made no sense, or we basically got no ending at all, just 3 seconds of seeing us dieing. What we need is an ending that makes sense, that answers the big questions, and that's consistent with the choices we've made in the previous 3 games. Just showing us 3 seconds of us almost dead isn't a proper end for this.

[QwertyMusicMan]

Although I really want to believe in these indoctrination theories, I still think it's just a way to explain the inherently nonsensical ending.