1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Archereon]

In regards to the indoctrination theory...Hanlon's razor my friends...

[LilyasAvalon]

Nope, I got it.

...I just didn't like it.

[Gallron395]

Archereon wrote...

In regards to the indoctrination theory...Hanlon's razor my friends...

Are you saying you think 3 games of awesome story, including two other great endings, are coincidence? Bioware just got stupid on the last and most important "ending?"

[adam_nox]

well, consider EA owns them now. Just like Anderson said about TIM lol.

And to reply to general topic... the possibility that they didn't even finish the story after all of this is way more insulting than the 3 possible endings being real.

[ShepGep]

The problem is that there isn't closure i.e. an ending. The story just stops. The indoctrination ending makes perfect sense. Ol Harbinger lasers Shepard out, then he wrestles with indoctrination, then he either does or doesn't wake up after a really bad acid trip. Okay...so now what? What happened in the battle in the real world? Did we win? Did the reapers win? What happened to my crew? What happened to the galaxy? There is no ending.

[ed87]

Gallron395 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

In regards to the indoctrination theory...Hanlon's razor my friends...

Are you saying you think 3 games of awesome story, including two other great endings, are coincidence? Bioware just got stupid on the last and most important "ending?"

Of course. They took a creative risk and failed. Thats why the last 10 minutes seemed very out of place to all the players

[ShepGep]

adam_nox wrote...

well, consider EA owns them now. Just like Anderson said about TIM lol.

And to reply to general topic... the possibility that they didn't even finish the story after all of this is way more insulting than the 3 possible endings being real.

No, they got really, really lazy or were forced to meet a deadline by EA as well as diverting some of their resources to multiplayer or were trying to be unique and cute but failed. My bet? A little bit of the three. Lazyness being the prime culprit though due to just using a cropped stock photo of some model for Tali and...

Have you Googled Space Snow Planet in Google images?
 
http://www.google.co...iw=1113&bih=829

I rest my case.

Modifié par ShepGep, 14 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[ScooterPie88]

4000+ or 500 the endings barely change. Joker is still flying like a bat out of hell for no reason. Humans die/live in destroy but its no one I care about. Nothing I did in ME 1 or 2 mattered in the slightest. I could go through ME3 make ****** poor choices then play the multiplayer and get the best ending. It's like a cross between Assasain's Creed 2 and Deus Ex. Minirva is God Child and God Child has us spin the wheel of endings. It's total nonsense.

[Gallron395]

ShepGep wrote...

The problem is that there isn't closure i.e. an ending. The story just stops. The indoctrination ending makes perfect sense. Ol Harbinger lasers Shepard out, then he wrestles with indoctrination, then he either does or doesn't wake up after a really bad acid trip. Okay...so now what? What happened in the battle in the real world? Did we win? Did the reapers win? What happened to my crew? What happened to the galaxy? There is no ending.

I agree and still have that same feeling of lack of an ending. But at least the theory here gives us hope or explanation that leaves us saying there is more, there is a possibility of a true end. Because obviously what we currently have is not good enough. 

[avmf8]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

This is London, that building to the left. look at the grey stone walls. look at the color, texture and designs. then tell me shepard is not in a rubble pile of those bricks at the breath ending...
www.youtube.com/watch[

whats my point? If this is not explained by "shepard never left London" then how, honestly how does this work?

p.s please dont tell me he got blasted outta the citadel through space down to earth and back to london and lived. *Facepalm*

I get that I do I am not happy because the game either has no ending or they are going to make you pay for it. Having shep take one breath on Earth is not an ending.

[Darthlawsuit]

I hope what you said is true. Otherwise I will have to go renegade shepard on Bioware

[nremies1]

@Tiax...apologies if this has been covered already, but what's your read on taking the 'destroy' ending but not having enough military strength to see Shep take the breath at the end?

/ninjaedit

So, wait...now I'm even more confused...if that was all hallucination, what *actually* happened?  Assuming you're correct and the endings only deal with Shepard's wrestling with Indoctrination, you posit that the only real ending is the one where you have sufficient military strength to take a breath.  But in my case (which is why I asked the above question), I picked the destroy option but didn't get to see her on the ground again.  By your theory I guess it means we won, and she died, but she just sorta mentally filled in the blanks with that imagined ending before expiring.

But what's Stargazer on about in all three endings?  Plus they tell us no matter what we pick that Shep is a legend.  Do we still 'win' despite giving into indoctrination?  The last text box flat out says we did.  Are they going 100% to hold up the facade that we won purely to pull off this 'indoctrinate the player' thing?

Modifié par nremies1, 14 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[MortalEngines]

Tiax Rules All wrote...
by your own admission you say that the indoctrination theory is the only one that makes sense, if that is the case then why fight it. it makes sense because its intened to. Sure maybe they didnt do a good job on making everyone aware of exactly what they are seeing. but they never promised your dream ending, And you dont make the rules as to what is legit and what is not as far as endings go. hate it if you want but Bioware is gonna write what they want and EA is gonna market it how they want. deal.

No, it makes sense because you've contrived a theory around the evidence. Anyone can do that. I could equally come up with a different theory that completely makes sense but is more far-fetched. Doesn't make it true. Plus the whole theory is based on complete assertions. You assume that Shepard would want to imagine his 'friends' (they weren't 'friends' to my renegade so why would he imagine them?) at the end via the normandy. And that the stargazer is obviously talking about Shepard after the indoctrination. And that imagining your friends facing possible stravation and death alone on a random planet makes complete sense.

Where is your evidence? You have none, you're just asserting it to fit your theory. "Of course it must", "it has to". No it doesn't, it only 'has to' if it wants to fit your theory. Everyone with half a brain knows that when the star-gazer says "I'll tell you another story" (or something to that effect), he is refering to the DLC stories that occur BEFORE the ending, like the Omega DLC. Otherwise, explain why the game return you to the save before the Illusive man's base for the DLC? Surely it would do like ME2 and have one after the ending?

It's nothing to do with my dream ending, and you having to resort to such silly claims just shows your true colours. I don't hate it because it's not what I wanted Bioware to write, I dislike it because it makes no sense and is silly. Had it been presented properly and was well written or heartfelt, I wouldn't give a damn. Deus ex HR pulled off similar endings beautifully. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 14 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[nremies1]

jwillis7 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

but nothing is fixed, the arms to the citadel are still down and the reapers are still reapin

What he said.

[MortalEngines]

nremies1 wrote...

jwillis7 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

but nothing is fixed, the arms to the citadel are still down and the reapers are still reapin

What he said.

Their (people who believe this theory) counter-claim to that is there will be a DLC that shows/allows you to 'properly' finish the game. It's just wishful thinking if you ask me. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 14 mars 2012 - 06:58 .

[Gallron395]

nremies1 wrote...

So, wait...now I'm even more confused...if that was all hallucination, what *actually* happened?  

The only thing that can for sure be said to have happened is Shepard was hit by harbinger's beam at the charge, and if Shepard survived his hallucination, if that is what it is, he wakes up in rubble in London. 

But it's true we really have no ending. It's just a cliffhanger. 

As for stargazer, he gives us the only other fact which is that Shepard somehow defeated the reapers. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Given what Casey Hudson said recently... there may not be anything to this.

And the ending really is as bad as its face value suggests...

[NoUserNameHere]

nremies1 wrote...

jwillis7 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

but nothing is fixed, the arms to the citadel are still down and the reapers are still reapin

What he said.

I'll never say that the ending is good, even with the indoctrination theory. It's most likely the Bioware writers got drunk while watching Inception and threw in that Shep-alive-in-london scene as one extra attempt to look deep.

It would've been the greatest twist ever made -- if it turned into anything in the finished product. If Shep got up right as the Credits were about to roll and continued the game with a "you were almost indoctrinated!" line from your LI or Anderson, that would've been the hypest shiz.

Would of been. Should of been.  

[balance5050]

 

[MortalEngines]

Gallron395 wrote...

nremies1 wrote...

So, wait...now I'm even more confused...if that was all hallucination, what *actually* happened?  

The only thing that can for sure be said to have happened is Shepard was hit by harbinger's beam at the charge, and if Shepard survived his hallucination, if that is what it is, he wakes up in rubble in London. 

But it's true we really have no ending. It's just a cliffhanger. 

As for stargazer, he gives us the only other fact which is that Shepard somehow defeated the reapers. 

Not really, he only points to the fact that the cycle has ended - which can occur with any of the three endings. Something the OP hasn't adressed either is the star-gazer is on the same planet the normandy crew landed on (if you look at the planet and moon sky, they are the same for both the crew and the star-gazer) so how do explain why the stargazer would be on the same planet as the Normandy crew if they crew crashing was just an 'illusion' (what would be the point?).

Also why would they end a game on a cliff hanger? We've been told numerous times (including from Casey himself) that THIS is the END of shepard's story. That's it. No more about Shepard. Might be more games set in the ME universe but either after Shepard or before. There will be no 'ME4' with Shep in it - it's been said clearly that this a trilogy and will remain that way. The DLC is wishful thinking if you ask me. 

[HKR148]

..worrisome amount of denials going on this post. Having reasonable amount of hope can be a good thing, but this is becoming borderline unhealthy.

[balance5050]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

nremies1 wrote...

jwillis7 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

till the twist... shep can live. and he never left london.

but nothing is fixed, the arms to the citadel are still down and the reapers are still reapin

What he said.

I'll never say that the ending is good, even with the indoctrination theory. It's most likely the Bioware writers got drunk while watching Inception and threw in that Shep-alive-in-london scene as one extra attempt to look deep.

It would've been the greatest twist ever made -- if it turned into anything in the finished product. If Shep got up right as the Credits were about to roll and continued the game with a "you were almost indoctrinated!" line from your LI or Anderson, that would've been the hypest shiz.

Would of been. Should of been.  

But then he wouldn't get to troll the entire internet, I would not pass up that opportunity.

[TcomJ]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.

I hope to make a complete and easy explanation of the ending, comment if you think I need to adjust or add to it.
This post does not apply to those who just don't like it because of its lack of detailed epilogue.

First of all there is one ending that is the real ending and all other endings are tricks and illusions. In fact the only REAL ending in the whole game is if you pick the destroy option with over 4000 assets. The real ending is only that 20 seconds they show of Shepard in the rubble and then takes a breath.

That (supposed to be) eye opening moment is supposed to tell you that Shepard was never on the Citadel. He lies just where he was knocked out by the destroyer blast, in the rubble of London. This is where the confusion takes place.

Everything that happens after the destroyer hits Shepard during his charge is a combination of a dying Shepard's hallucinations and reaper indoctrination trying to take over. Right after the blast, Shepard wakes with his armor half blown off. This is not just cut scene fubar, this is the start of his indoctrination fight when everything is slightly off, as in a dream (because it is)

If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.

After he reaches the Citadel there is more oddness that should be setting off triggers for the player that something is not right, that this is an illusion... Anderson describes shifting walls and only ever agrees with Shep on his surroundings after Shep describes his and saying "like the collector base you described". Everything is just a projection from Shepard's mind and subconscious.

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

There are more allusions to not trusting Cerberus/reapers throughout the game as well. You really start to see them after you understand the indoctrination ending. For example: TIM talking to Kai Lang says "Shepard was always going to stay true to his ideals" subtlety suggesting that the player should do the same and not let TIM/reapers compromise you destroying the reapers. The goal you have had since the very beginning. Also before the attack on Cerberus base I believe, there is a quantum comm. call between you and Hackett. You have the option of saying something like "what if TIM is right and the reapers CAN be controlled" and Hackett shoots you down. Gives you a direct order to kill TIM and destroy reapers. No questions asked. Once again, game trying to remind you of the one true goal and keep you focused.

Now about the Catalyst and the crucible conversation and decision itself... By this time indoctrination is very close to taking over. The end is near. The catalyst looks like the little boy because of shep's subconscious and indoctrination is feeding off that. Everything in this scene is A LIE. The choices and how they are presented to you are all part of the deception to get Shepard to give his mind into indoctrination and lose the will to fight it.

You are presented first with the destroy option. He says "I KNOW you have been thinking of destroying us but..." The catalyst is scared, knows that its only chance is to manipulate Shepard here and now. It's painted in renegade red to through you off. This is purposefully done to manipulate Shepard's decision to fight. He tells you all synthetic life will be wiped out, including Geth and including Shepard because he is partially cybernetic himself. In sales you always present the worst option first and the best for last. So the next 2 options can then be presented and made more appealable.

the other 2 options do not let you ever see Shepard "alive" at the end so to me BOTH of these options are fails and result in you being indoctrinated and/or dying right there on the streets of London. Without that last breath scene. There can be no happy ending. I will elaborate on them a bit more separately.

Synthesis was in the middle and last option presented, this is what they ultimately want. He even likened the synthesis to husks in his description. The reapers want to harvest organics and change them into hybrids. By choosing synthesis you would be doing their work for them in an instant. Basically I see this as total fail ending, you have been played.

Now the control option was not presented as prominently as the synthesis but was still painted in paragon blue and offered as an option still better then destroy. In the end the result for choosing this is the same behind the scenes. Shepard gave into indoctrination/death and you do not get the breath tidbit.

So if you choose destroy like I believe we are somewhat intended to, remember that the explosion cut scene and relays exploding and Normandy running/crashing ALL OF THAT IS STILL HALLUCINATION. This is Shepard's subconscious imagining a "happy ending" he imagines reapers destroyed, earth fighters celebrating, and he imagines and ending for companions. The lush new planet-scape is just a metaphor for starting over and them being at peace. That's why immediately after they show Shep waking up, to solidify the dream idea.

At that point you are supposed to start thinking about what really happened. Shepard is alive, on Earth, has conquered indoctrination. Another HUGE thing is that after destroying the reapers you were supposed to be dead. Recalling the little boy "you will die as you are partly synthetic". When you wake up after that in the rubble, it should be a clear indication that you have been lied to. You did not die like the boy said you would, he just said that to dissuade you. The rest is left even more ambiguous but...

I personally believe that Shepard's job ended there. His companions who followed him at the last rush are dead beside him not suddenly on the Normandy and suddenly in a new system living happily ever after. That only happens in dreams He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.

Love it or hate it, I whole heartedly believe that we will see DLC in the future that will start with Shepard taking that breath in the rubble. It will be something like Waking up after beating indoctrination and actually concluding the story in a more definitive way. And possibly a lot more "happy" though I'm more interested in "real" then some contrived happiness.



TL;DR (oh come on read above, its good
2 parts, first everything that happens between Shepard getting hit by the destroyer eye blast during the London charge and the "take a breath" scene (that you only get by choosing correct choices and having high enough EMF) Is a hallucination/indoctrination process that Shepard is fighting in his head.


There is only one real ending, the ending you have been groomed for since the beginning. Destroy the reapers at all costs. All other endings that do not have Shepard alive at the end are lies. They are illusions and means that Shepard gave into indoctrination and never awoke back on earth to realize this. And the player doesn't understand.

All the supposed plot holes can be explained by this. See examples above. Ask me questions if you have them, I will try to clarify for you in comments.

Also if you would rather watch 3 minutes of youtube, this is a rather good but not totally complete ending explaination. I approve


FINAL NOTE
I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.

No... We actually do.

Watch this at 4:15 to see why that theory make us even more upset:

 

[MortalEngines]

TcomJ wrote...
No... We actually do.

Watch this at 4:15 to see why that theory make us even more upset:

 

That's brilliant, hit the nail on the head. "People are just grasping for straws to just find any ending that is not the ending we got" and "you would rather have a dream that didn't happen rather than the ending you got?" pretty much sums the arguement up.

[CrimsonNephilim]

TcomJ wrote...

No... We actually do.

Watch this at 4:15 to see why that theory make us even more upset:

 

Thats just...

Someone give this guy a medal. Thats just win right there.