1594 réponses à ce sujet

[GarrusVFan]

aristaea wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Even if that were the case---there's now no ending at all, despite this being the end of Shepard's story.

It's like they cut off the last chapter of a book, printed 'The End' after the preceding chapter then went:

What do you mean you want an actual ending?

This is pretty much my problem with indoctrination theory. It's not that I can't see the logic behind it, it's that if it is true... then there really isn't an ending at all. Not even a shoddily-written one.

Works on two levels then.  Sure, we didn't exactly get an ending, but at least we're not trapped with the other horrible endings for eternity.

[Pelle6666]

Eh... No. =P this theory is circling around the internet and it's only a weak effort to hide from the awful truth, the end actually happened and it sucked.
Even if this would be true, why the hell would Bioware want to screw us over like that? Nothing in the game have been that cryptic before so why would the last five minutes (the most important five minutes of the entire series) be any different?

[Zofiya]

GarrusVFan wrote...

Works on two levels then.  Sure, we didn't exactly get an ending, but at least we're not trapped with the other horrible endings for eternity.

Since my biggest problem with the ending was the lack of katharsis, this does not actually cheer me up. So many pent-up emotions....

[Tiax Rules All]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9947830/1#9948134

Just created offshoot topic (w/ pics and vids), discussing what the Shepard lives / rubble scene means and how it related or doesn't to indoctrination theory. If you like this thread, check the other out too.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 14 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

SO... the ending is fake because it's an hallucination/indoctrination.

Fair enough. But you know what? People usually loathe the ''all just a dream'' trope. Because it's cheap and renders events meaningless. In this case, however, they actually hope it's a dream/hallucination/not-real-thingie.

Why? Because the ending absolutely sucks. No matter if it happens or not in ''reality'', it still sucks. If Shepard hallucinates of it, his hallucination sucks. If the Reapers's indoctrination makes him see it, then their indoctrination process sucks.

Get it?

[Himmelstor]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

SO... the ending is fake because it's an hallucination/indoctrination.

Fair enough. But you know what? People usually loathe the ''all just a dream'' trope. Because it's cheap and renders events meaningless. In this case, however, they actually hope it's a dream/hallucination/not-real-thingie.

Why? Because the ending absolutely sucks. No matter if it happens or not in ''reality'', it still sucks. If Shepard hallucinates of it, his hallucination sucks. If the Reapers's indoctrination makes him see it, then their indoctrination process sucks.

Get it?

*chuckling*
Maybe that's why I don't fall on a side in the indoctrination theory argument...

[v0rt3x22]

I encourage you all to read this: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9948848

[EvilMind]

People are making huge A4 theories based on the 3 second video of a guy taking a breath, backed by "I hope, I think, I wish"... Just listen to yourself, there are even more cons than pros for the inductrination theory, its full of holes.

Even if it was Shepards dream, what difference does it make? Noone has made it to the beam, Citadel remains closed, Reapers kill united flotilia and etc...

When did they had time to brainwash Shepard when codex sas it takes weeks, months and years to inductrinate a person. Or now reapers have the ability to insta brainwash with their lazer?

Why did Reapers even bother to inductrinate Shepard who didn't make it to the beam and lies half dead in rubble? If they're doing it, then they are aware that Shepard is still alive.

By this time Reapers know for sure that organics are trying to enter the Citadel via beam and open it, they have few dozen options to stop that from happening. The easiest - turning off the beam or sending 20 ships to guard it.

I got more of these if you want

Modifié par EvilMind, 14 mars 2012 - 10:29 .

[Shepard Wins]

@EvilMind People are making those theories because they refuse to be handed a pathetic excuse of an ending to a saga they have massive emotional investment in. The main problem with the endings is that they give no closure whatsoever on characters and worlds players have visited, got attached to, loved. What happened to Shepard's squad, Admiral Hackett, Wrex etc. What is the fate of Rannoch, Tuchanka, Thessia? I can go on.

I had Liara and James with me during the beam sequence. Later, Liara was on the Normandy on the jungle planet! How was that possible? How the flip did Illusive Man get to the Citadel? Etcetera. Sorry, the plotholes are just unacceptable for me, and I dare say noone who has even a smudgeon of emotional attachment to the characters can accept it.

[Egonne]

The indoctrination theory holds a good deal of merit. It makes a great deal more sense than any other interpretation. It seems to me the dream sequences in the game have five major characteristics:

1. Whispy black tendrils
2. Brightly glowing figures
3. A painfully slow walk
4. Whispers
5. Blurred edges

These elements are indicative of a dream. Most, if not all, of these elements are present in the ending sequence. Combine that with the seemingly huge plot problems (Normandy in the mass relay stream when it should be in orbit, Anderson's unexplicable appearance in the Citadel) and the 'Shepard wakes up' scene, the indoctrination theory is quite solidly defendable.

Modifié par Egonne, 15 mars 2012 - 12:00 .

[medusa_hair]

Egonne wrote...

The indoctrination theory holds a good deal of merit. It makes a great deal more sense than any other interpretation. It seems to me the dream sequences in the game have five major characteristics:

1. Whispy black tendrils
2. Brightly glowing figures
3. A painfully slow walk
4. Whispers
5. Blurred edges

These elements are indicative of a dream. Most, if not all, of these elements are present in the ending sequence. Combine that with the seemingly huge plot problems (Normandy in the mass relay stream when it should be in orbit, Anderson's unexplicable appearance in the Citadel) and the 'Shepard wakes up' scene, the indoctrination theory is quite solidly defendable.

I am more likely to subscribe to the "Shepard is knocked out/badly injured and is having a near-death experience" rather than "Shepard is indoctrinated" because indoctrinated Shepard is just makes it all so futile, to be indoctrinated right at the very end after everything.  I also think that they had to come up with a way to make her not die so they could have DLC later on...that's why the post-game save puts you back on the Normandy right before the final push.

I do wish they had done a proper epilogue, like in DAO. 

None of this excuses the fact that they screwed up.  Interestingly, I was mostly OK with the ending at first because I expected her to die all along; in fact, I actually thought she was going to be the catalyst.  I was only made suspicious based on who climbed out of the Normandy and the post-game save situation.  It's very odd that they would do this.  Makes me wonder a) couldn't they think of something; and  how many beers were involved.  

[OriginalTibs]

My issue with the endings is that throughout the whole series we have played on the side of hope, time after time rising again against the odds, overcoming despair and futility.

The story was always a courageous stand against the failing of the light, a stand for life against the darkest night.

But the endings, for 90% of possible game outcomes, is antithetical to the story that was woven around ME1 and 2. For those nine in ten endings ME3 promotes despair and futility, and the ONLY way we could see the faintest glimmer of hope was if we played a whole lot of multiplayer.

Some people are shy. The endings open to those who do not wish to play multiplayer were betrayed.

Storytelling has power, and with power comes responsibility. I believe the endings, even with the indoctrination theory, were a betrayal of that responsibility.

[Tiax Rules All]

hex23 wrote...

I believe in indoctrination theory but I will play Devil's advocate for a sec.

Let's say the end should be taken at face value. It 100% happened. This still doesn't explain Star Gazer...but let's roll with it all being real for a second.

The problem with that is, Bioware has been tweeting nonstop hinting that we don't have the full picture.

Look at this Chris Priestly tweet from today:

twitter.com/#!/BioEvilChris/status/179967731070799872

Jessica Merizan:
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179808402011193344
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179828285327409152

The official "Mass Effect" twitter from Bioware:
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179680647869243392
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179681231766695936
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179688066787704832
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179682383304462338

This has been going on nonstop for the last 2 days. Some might say "oh, this is PR"....but you can't really. PR wouldn't get that specific about us not understanding what we've seen, yet.

cannot ignore this

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[Lonsecia]

My only qualm with there only being one 'real' ending is that it invalidates all choices until that final one, which is utterly silly. As much as I like the theory of fighting the indoctrination, throughout the game, no choice has inherently been correct or incorrect. so to make the most important decision one that actually has no 'real' alternatives is contradictory to what has gone before (as has been said by many others. Sorry to slightly repeat myself. It was more through clarification for my own sake

[acidqueen5426]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No. You're wrong.

I get it. I just wanted some kind of closure. You're ignoring the issue. We just wanted to know what happened to our galaxy after we made our decision. Thats all.

Well I didn't count you sir. but there are plenty that do not realize this and i'm trying to educate. It may help some people feel better it did for me. Of course some people just plain dont like it and thats ok and thats not gonna change.

I'm adressing something different. Also if you read it all I mention the potential for upcoming DLC.

Trying to educate by being patronizing and saying "No, you just didn't get it, let me explain it to you in terms that you'll understand, you poor simple fools that are CLEARLY too stupid to understand the Grand Design of Bioware"?

Riiiiight.

I got it--what I am upset with is the fact that there is no closure. You don't find out what really happened, and (for those who wanted one) there's no chance at even the barest hint of a "happily ever after" (except for Joker and EDI, which I admit was rather adorable).

It's painfully obvious that it's some kind of near-death experience. But when I'm sitting there going "SO WHAT THE FRELL ACTUALLY HAPPENED AFTER ALL THIS TIME?!" and the devs are going "lolz everyone loves it we're only going to retweet positive comments!" despite an increasing number of people going "SO WHAT THE FRELL HAPPENED AFTER ALL THIS TIME?!" well....I think I'm right to feel a little like I got a virtual boot to the keftedes.

I could handle the ending for the re-imagined BSG, because I knew that they had to do what they could to wrap everything up in the time that was allotted for the remainder of the series. The resolution was a little hacked-together and ham-handed, but at least there was some kind of closure for the Fleet and the remaining Cylons and the Final Five. I was OK with it.

But this?  The devs could have pushed back the release date for a better ending, one with some freakin' CLOSURE to it, and I guaranfreakingtee you that the amount of protesting would have been minimal--and there wouldn't have been the need for you to waste our time by insulting our intelligence and patronizing those of us who aren't happy with what happened.

Sheesh.

[Eudaemonium]

Thanks Tiax Rules All for this great interpretation of the ending. Is it ironic that the most sensible interpretation of the ending I've read comes from someone whose userhandle is about Tiax?

I actually like this theory a lot, even with the ending as it stands. That s to say, I'm not waiting on tenterhooks for DLC or for Bioware to 'finish' the story. I'm actually quite happy with this being the end and assuming that maybe Shepard goes on to secure victory, or the fleets do, or the Reapers win, or whatever. I'm actually content with the lack of closure. I can just headcanon stuff later.

I think what I like most about this ending theory (other than the 4th-wall breaking aspect, which is genius), is the fact that the 'final battle' of the game is essentially about Shepard, and about whether she's willing to give in to the Reapers in the same way as Saren or the Illusive Man. Both are indoctrinated, and as others have pointed out, both represent the two non-Destroy endings, either explicitly (Illusive Man/Control) or implicitly (Saren/Synthesis). Saren is motivated by a certain despair at the Reapers' power, and TIM similarly--albeit in a different way, and is also driven by seekign powerr. Both believe they are in control of their destinies until Shepard convinces them that they aren't, they were just dancing to the Reapers' tune all along. The fact that the final conflict of the game is Shepard/the Player potentially falling into the same trap as the series primary antagonists has in my mind a certain poetry, a beauty to it that I find hard to pass up, regardless of whether the indoctrination ending is really the one that is 'true' (and I believe it is, but I don't really care because I don't believe authorial intent really matters).

That, after uniting a galaxy and bringing it into the war to end all wars, the true final conflict is within Shepard herself and whether she's willing to give in to the same temptations her two greatest adversaries fell into is just something I, personally, find artistically appealing. It is perhaps the culmination of a game that very much stressed Shepard the human, not just Shepard the hero.

[Zeroscape]

Lonsecia wrote...

My only qualm with there only being one 'real' ending is that it invalidates all choices until that final one, which is utterly silly. As much as I like the theory of fighting the indoctrination, throughout the game, no choice has inherently been correct or incorrect. so to make the most important decision one that actually has no 'real' alternatives is contradictory to what has gone before (as has been said by many others. Sorry to slightly repeat myself. It was more through clarification for my own sake

If they are going to give us a DLC that'll give us the true ending then I believe Bioware will give people a chance to fight their way out of the 'fail' endings. Perhaps some sort of extra sequence/boss fight. Alternatively, forcing people to replay that aspect in order to choose destroy will really drive home the point that this is all a trick.

Having read through Tiax's original post properly I have to agree with him. I did choose the destroy ending when I was beating the game because it made the most sense at the time. Destroying the Reapers has always been the main mission. Though I did feel really ^$#@ for 'destroying all other synthetics", as I made sure to resolve things between the Geth and Quarians. A powerful and amazing moment.

It's only now after reading Tiax's write-up , having being seriously confused by the ending sequence after I made my selection in-game, when the pieces dropped into place for me as well. The key bit was that you are able to gasp for air despite being part synthetic yourself. I really should've caught up on that myself because I distinctly remember the catalyst suggesting/hinting/implying that I would die. 

Thank you for the amazing write-up, Tiax! 

I can totally understand how a lack of closure really hurt a lot of fans of the series. I am hoping this DLC will properly tie up the end. The game and fans deserve it.

We shall see.

[LDStaredown]

EvilMind wrote...

People are making huge A4 theories based on the 3 second video of a guy taking a breath, backed by "I hope, I think, I wish"... Just listen to yourself, there are even more cons than pros for the inductrination theory, its full of holes.

Even if it was Shepards dream, what difference does it make? Noone has made it to the beam, Citadel remains closed, Reapers kill united flotilia and etc...

When did they had time to brainwash Shepard when codex sas it takes weeks, months and years to inductrinate a person. Or now reapers have the ability to insta brainwash with their lazer?

Why did Reapers even bother to inductrinate Shepard who didn't make it to the beam and lies half dead in rubble? If they're doing it, then they are aware that Shepard is still alive.

By this time Reapers know for sure that organics are trying to enter the Citadel via beam and open it, they have few dozen options to stop that from happening. The easiest - turning off the beam or sending 20 ships to guard it.

I got more of these if you want

Shepard has been in contact with Reaper artifacts and even real Reapers more than anyone over the series. Add the fact that he just got hit with the beam of the largest and most powerful Reaper, his mind should be severly weakened. And this isn't the full indoctrination; think of the final scene with the Catalyst as the moment that pushes Shepard over the edge - a point of no return. His mind will not be able to seperate real and fake, thus being on the path to becoming fully indoctrinated. Choosing the Red option, the one that his mind still fighting the indoctrination percieves to label as the choice Anderson would make, breaks Harbinger's hold of Shepard and he wakes up. 
  Why whouldn't the most advanced species in the galaxy be able to detect live signs in individuals? I'm thinking this could be a useful ability when, you know, they are harvesting all organic live and need to search for survivors. Try seeing it from the Reapers' point of view: is Shepard more valuable dead, or as a loyal servant?
 To answer you final point: Remember they did have a ****load of troops guarding the beam beforehand. Sending their largest and most powerful Reaper would probably seem like enough of a backup. It's not like they haven't underestimated Shepard before. Regarding simply shutting off the beam: I'm not sure, but maybe keeping it up for sending more bodies is worth the risk of a platoon of marines blasting through their heavy defences. I don't know.
Keep'em coming;)
 

[Vexia2070]

I purchased a game. An expensive game. Or for those of you who don't get it - A PRODUCT - Any decent ending that might come as DLC.is as unacceptable as buying a computer from a manufacturer that oops, forgot to but a hard drive in, or a toaster oven that came without a heating element.

Me."but it doesn't work..."
Sales rep. "Oh, you want it to work? well, you should have said so. It can in theory work of course, but that will cost you extra."
Me. " I see...refund please and I will buy one that does work else-wear."
Sales rep. "But its such a beautiful toaster. SOOO artistic it brings a tear to the eye."
Me. " I'll buy a statue of David, thanks. IT DOES NOT WORK. refund please."

OR

"The car is so elegant so rich looking...."
"ah....yeah, but where are the wheels?"
"Oh, don't you understand you must imagine the wheels. better yet, devise whole grand conspiracy theory's about why the wheels are missing.Oh and why the back 10th of the car is melted and pooling on the ground in kind of a yukky mess."
" I see....so you were released from the sanatorium how long ago?...Oh sorry that was very un-pc of me. Tell you what. You stay here with you, ah car-thing."
Runs away. (shouts) CAB OVER HERE. oh good and your cab has wheels."
"Sure lady why wouldn't it?"
"Oh, ah, long story. Take me to the nearest dealership that sells cars with wheels and isn't melting."
"What??? You nuts lady?"
"getting there. Just drive."

or should I just paint an abstract pretty color picture.
Vexia

[Iron Ranger]

Thanks for the write up, I missed parts of the early dreams so feel I missed something at the end (thought they were loading screens at first).

I'll add my voice to the ending being a Dream/Soul walk/Hulasination...

But that means that Bioware shiped a unfinished game... they plan on milking us for more money through DLC (star gazer "one more story"). If they give this out for free, great... back as by fav gaming company. But with the day one DLC, and rumors that it was pulled out of the main game. Not developed after the game went gold. I have lost trust in EAware.

Eather way a great thread, lots of good ideas. Sadly I only have time for some quick questions:

Why did the Reapers desided to come now.... or better when did they first deside to come?

Will the destruction of the Mass Relays destory MOST advaced life? Remember in Arrival the destruction on its Relay took out that star system.

Does Bioware play/read its own games and books? FFS didnt they have to pull the latest Mass Effect book because it broke too many Canon Lore issues? They are/have reprinted it now?

[Tiax Rules All]

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

models name is harbinger, do we need more proof?

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[gosimmons]

I would only be ok with this if there was actual continuation (dlc or otherwise) on it. As of now, it'd be a cliffhanger. Lacking in closure and distinction.

[Tiax Rules All]

picture above
/debate

indoc theory

[Rawgrim]

The pic was proven to be photoshopped, Tiax. Sorry. I jumped the guns on it too.

[JasonTan87]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

models name is harbinger, do we need more proof?

It's fake. Read the entire thread.