1594 réponses à ce sujet

[GreenDragon37]

Rawgrim wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Also, Tiax, I posted a similer thread yesterday. I understood the ending for what it is from the first go. It was only after I heard about people raging at the bad ending I was totally confused as wonder how they played the ending already when it wasnt out yet. I came to these forums and saw the immense rage. I tried to explain how I saw the ending but most people just responded with calling me smug cos implying others didnt understand the ending was implying I somehow felt better than them. Its really frustrating, but you are right, and you are not alone. Many people experienced the game the same way we did, we just dont hear them raging as we are patiently waiting for the end to be released.

So you support people paying for an ending we should have gotten from thr start when we payed 60 or 80 dollars for a full game? You're either delusional or blinded by fanboyism by EAWare. This is just sad, that people think it's alright for BioWare to make people wait and pay for the real ending(s) and think it's "clever"... so freaking sad.

You could arguably say that about every movie or game you don`t like the ending of. Truth be told.

Except unlike movies, promises were made that weren't fulfilled. Litterally. We would get closure, we would not get a "Lost" ending, and BioWare did just that. And most of the fans are not happy.

Hell, Mass Effect 1 had an "end" if you really think about it.

[Rawgrim]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Its really sad that people resort to personal attacks. If you don't like the theory, explain why!

Hard to do that when one doesn`t even read, and try to understand the theory, to begin with. Not saying this counts for everyone, of course.

[usmack5]

I give credit to Tiax Rules All for the well thought out theory about the ending and the heaps of presented evidence, especially the tweets, pointing towards DLC very soon that will help clear things up. However, it is a moot point. No matter how "clever" Bioware appears if this whole BS ending is a ruse and they give us a real conclusion at some point, it doesn't erase the fact that they provided an incomplete game and a horribly written potential indoctrination sequence when they promised an ending that would factor in all the decisions you've made throughout the series. I hope you're right, though.

Kudos for the research!

[Britcorp]

dont rage at me or smiley556 (nicest person here)

we did not make the ending. just trying to explain it.

its "clever" to EA's wallets
its "sad" for our wallets
but that has nothing to do with indoctrination theory

I'm pissed because Bioware thinks they can sell me an incomplete game.

Then charge me extra for the ending.

Bioware has seriously almost certainly lost a customer.

The only way I see to rectify the situation is an apology and to give everyone who bought the game the ending they payed for when they bought ME3.

Modifié par Britcorp, 15 mars 2012 - 03:37 .

[Rawgrim]

Britcorp wrote...

dont rage at me or smiley556 (nicest person here)

we did not make the ending. just trying to explain it.

its "clever" to EA's wallets
its "sad" for our wallets
but that has nothing to do with indoctrination theory

I'm pissed because Bioware thinks they can sell me an incomplete game.

Then charge me extra for the ending.

Bioware has seriously almost certainly lost a customer.

The only way I see to rectify the situation is an apology and to give everyone who bought the game the ending they payed for when they bought ME3.

Maybe the DLC will be free?

[Tiax Rules All]

topher_sherman2283 wrote...

Tiax Rules All, I agree, sorry its hard to read 40 pages of responses, I still just do not in any way believe "destroy" is the "right" decision, they have always said, there is no right and wrong

i dont know who they is? Bioware?

but in the game. anybody on sheps side DEMANDS reapers be destroyed. DEMANDS that you not comprimise.
are we playing the same series?

Hackett gives you a direct order to kill the reapers with extreme prejudice before the finale in holo comm.

if you pick anything OTHER then destroy, you are betraying Shepards goal since the very begging game and making a deal with the reapers. And the game has proven to us over and over and OVER, that there is no comprimise with reapers that end well. its them or us..

[GreenDragon37]

Britcorp wrote...

dont rage at me or smiley556 (nicest person here)

we did not make the ending. just trying to explain it.

its "clever" to EA's wallets
its "sad" for our wallets
but that has nothing to do with indoctrination theory

I'm pissed because Bioware thinks they can sell me an incomplete game.

Then charge me extra for the ending.

Bioware has seriously almost certainly lost a customer.

The only way I see to rectify the situation is an apology and to give everyone who bought the game the ending they payed for when they bought ME3.

I like this Human! He/she understands!

Seriously, I can't believe people are actually fine with the possibility of BioWare selling them an incomplete game and making fans pay for the actual end later. <_<

[JasonTan87]

JasonTan87 wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

It was easy to say that they might have just missed these things and since this makes so much sense they'd go with it in the beginning, but there is just too many things that fit now. If all the people in this thread have come up with this conclusion from what we've discovered, do you really think that after X amount of years of development, no one on the ME team noticed these things?

THIS IS DELIBERATE.

And it's brilliant.

It will go down not only as one of the greatest game series in history, but the greatest reveal for the ending of that series.

Mass Effect could never go out on a whimper, it's going to go out on an earthshattering bang. Just like it should.

Keep in mind; with such an ending without a closure, it is very easy to see what we each want to see. It's very easy to read into the narrative and find things that are not there. Hope, combined with emotional desperation, makes a most persuasive force. (This reminds me of TIM's own falling)

I myself am wary of giving the writers too much credit; especially in instances where there is the possibility of me deluding myself into making a masterpiece out of someone's sloppy work. Traditionally, Mass Effect followed fairly conventional soap-opera conventions. Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games. Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

The thing is, we can't tell if this is deliberate just yet. I'm most willing to buy into this theory, but I can't help but ask myself:

If this was really true, why hold the 'real ending' back? Why not just release it with the rest of the game, and be credited for the stroke of genious? Why risk the fan backlash? Why look sloppy when you can look good right off?

Why troll us, their fans?

You know, they could have just told us in a press release, with a sly smile, that it's not over yet. Then they wouldn't have any of this PR firestorm on their hands.

Even if it was true, the current state that ME3 was released in (supposedly a complete game out of the box) is also paramount to bad writing. The narrative, as it is now, it violates the reader-writer contract by not offering the real ending to provide closure to the story. Even if there was an overarching meta-narrative embedded within, the writing must be consistant and clear enough for us to reach that conclusion without having a 'panel' to 'interpret' the ending for us. Mass Effect 3 has neither.

The very fact that the 'panel' has to 'interpret' their vision to us shows how the narrative has failed to communicate the different levels of the narrative.

In addition; the whole crucible sequence itself could have been handled more adequately. Hallucination is not an excuse for sloppy writing. The writing for the crucible onwards; while brillant if this theory holds true; still feels sloppy and rushed. Imagine how much more convincing if they had a fluent narrative without the gigantic plot holes, and the Normandy had a proper reason for running away with your crew all on it. It also end with Normandy getting knocked out of FTL, but not show the crew coming out of the Normandy on some random planet.

The fact that the ending feels rushed worries me; because such meta-narrative twists require a high level of finesse to pull off.

What worries me the most is that people are losing their objectivity, calling what what may very well be a rushed conclusion 'a stroke of genius'. We must never forget that Bioware is telling us a story, and the very fact that we are unable to see the structure of the meta-narrative clearly (if it even exists) shows an inability to communicate their artistic vision properly through the medium.

So here's to all of us: Keep hoping, keep objective, keep playing.

JasonTan87 wrote...

humes spork wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

Traditionally, Mass Effect followed fairly conventional soap-opera conventions. Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games. Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

Mass Effect has always been a metanarrative -- that is to say, it's always been a game about science fiction as much as it has been science fiction itself. The first game was a paean to 80s sci-fi, and the second a paean to 90s sci-fi. Right down to level and art design and music, each game was absolutely permeated with the influence of science fiction of that era. By extension, ME3 is a paean to 00s sci-fi and if nothing else 00s science fiction has been absolutely rife with postmodern influence.

I agree with you calling Mass Effect a paean to science fiction. I am not entirely convinced that each game is a paean to the eras you have stated. That being said, it might be because of my lack of exposure to science fiction outside the more popular works.

The problem I have with this post-modern influence is that Mass Effect is first and foremost a narrative driven by player choice (or the illusion thereof). The player finds his/her voice through the narrative, the narrative resonates with the player because it is a reflection of his/her inner desires. The problem arises when Mass Effect 3 disrupts this relationship by very abruptly bringing in the full weight of the meta-narrative to bear directly on the player narrative in the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3. The player narrative breaks down, the player feels disempowered, disorientated and confused. 

You can argue that the central crux of this Hallucination theory is to create this sense of disempowerment, disorientation and confusion so as to mimic the effects of indoctrination. That makes sense. What does not make sense is why this meta-narrative is not made more apparent through the entire third installment, where viewers are given time to grasp at what is going on. 

This can be done quite easily through repeated breaching of the player narrative by the meta narrative at increasing intervals and intensity. We don't really see that happening -- even the dream scenes do not provide us enough foothold to establish the meta-narrative breach of the player-narrative. The ending thus comes as a complete surprise to the player who finds his player-narrative crushed by the weight of this supposed meta-narrative hallucination theory (if it even exists). Because the player at this point is competely unaware of the meta-narrative, he is unable to transcend the player narrative to obtain the closure found within the meta-narrative (which is to resist the indoctrination in the optimal case). He is left astounded, perplexed and angry that he had been cheated out of his emotional capital.

In the end, it is the responsibility of the writing to draw out the meta-narrative aspects that this hallucination theory is founded on in the concluding moments of the game. The inability of the players (us) to determine beyond doubt the existance of such a theory, let alone find the closure within (if it even exists) is proof that the writers are not able to convey their artistic vision through the medium.

TL;DR: Even if the Hallucination theory is true, it could have been better supported by the narrative so that it could be actualized in gameplay experience, allowing us to derive the closure within the meta-narrative space.

 

Modifié par JasonTan87, 15 mars 2012 - 03:41 .

[GreenDragon37]

Rawgrim wrote...

Britcorp wrote...

dont rage at me or smiley556 (nicest person here)

we did not make the ending. just trying to explain it.

its "clever" to EA's wallets
its "sad" for our wallets
but that has nothing to do with indoctrination theory

I'm pissed because Bioware thinks they can sell me an incomplete game.

Then charge me extra for the ending.

Bioware has seriously almost certainly lost a customer.

The only way I see to rectify the situation is an apology and to give everyone who bought the game the ending they payed for when they bought ME3.

Maybe the DLC will be free?

Which screws over anyone who doesn't have/can't use Xbox Live, PSN, and/or online play (which is a lot of people). The game should have come complete when it was released to avoid situations like this. Why do you not understand this?

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 15 mars 2012 - 03:42 .

[It IS Lupus]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

To Add on to the Indoctrination bit. From the beginning of the game With that first "dream sequence" with the kid and the whispers in the background I knew Shep was Indoctrinated. In Mass Effect: Retribution?(the third one) Grayson talks about the Reapers control on him as being Whispers in the back of his mind. When he worked towards the Reapers goals they'd lessen their grip on him, however if he worked against them they'd exert even more control on him.

[Tiax Rules All]

Britcorp wrote...

dont rage at me or smiley556 (nicest person here)

we did not make the ending. just trying to explain it.

its "clever" to EA's wallets
its "sad" for our wallets
but that has nothing to do with indoctrination theory

I'm pissed because Bioware thinks they can sell me an incomplete game.

Then charge me extra for the ending.

Bioware has seriously almost certainly lost a customer.

The only way I see to rectify the situation is an apology and to give everyone who bought the game the ending they payed for when they bought ME3.

to play devils advocate here im Evil EA personafied:

"so hey, we are not making you buy this dlc. ME3 base HAD an ending, this is just an extra ending for those who WANT extra. You dont have to see this super cool, awesome finale ending to the trilogy if you dont want to" 

How much you want to be this will be tweeted by somebody in defence of the DLC

and they are not wrong, balsy, dicks, evil, smart, money hogs.... irrelevant


"pre-order cancelled" didnt do a damn thing to hurt sales. They just dont care about you saying that you wont buy it. because 90 percent that say they wont.. will

[Tiax Rules All]

so jason, you have confirmed my thoughts about you all along, you dont want to debate Indoc theory, you just are upset that others are happy with thier endings.

feel free to think that it was a badly designed ending.
we are debating Indoc theory here.

[Tiax Rules All]

It IS Lupus wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

To Add on to the Indoctrination bit. From the beginning of the game With that first "dream sequence" with the kid and the whispers in the background I knew Shep was Indoctrinated. In Mass Effect: Retribution?(the third one) Grayson talks about the Reapers control on him as being Whispers in the back of his mind. When he worked towards the Reapers goals they'd lessen their grip on him, however if he worked against them they'd exert even more control on him.

hes not indoctrinated there. he may be losing it from stress but hes not indoctrinated in game. Not until the end is the actual decition made and result established..

otherwise prothean VI would have recognised Shep as Indoctrinated and Cerberus' base security measurs would have not "no more indoc forces detected, releasing locks"

this has been confusion for alot. THE END is the diciding point, not before then.
its hard to differentiate between sheps hallucinating and indoctrination attempts. but they are supposed to be. indoctrination is one tricky and powerful force.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[mrbeermeister]

But if shep was indoctrinated wouldn't the prothean VI have said something like it did for Kai Leng?

[Tiax Rules All]

mrbeermeister wrote...

But if shep was indoctrinated wouldn't the prothean VI have said something like it did for Kai Leng?

look above

[Tiax Rules All]

the boy visions before the ending are Sheps hallucinations, the boy at the end is harbinger stealing sheps thoughts and taking a form that shep would feel sympathetic too.

[mrbeermeister]

Well I feel stupid now, literally the post right above mine =[

[dtones520]

 I like the idea. It just screws people who dont want to pay for live/don't hook Internet up to their console of choice.

[Egonne]

krystalevenstar wrote...

It was easy to say that they might have just missed these things and since this makes so much sense they'd go with it in the beginning, but there is just too many things that fit now. If all the people in this thread have come up with this conclusion from what we've discovered, do you really think that after X amount of years of development, no one on the ME team noticed these things?

THIS IS DELIBERATE.

And it's brilliant.

It will go down not only as one of the greatest game series in history, but the greatest reveal for the ending of that series.

Mass Effect could never go out on a whimper, it's going to go out on an earthshattering bang. Just like it should.

'Brilliant' is truly an understatment if the Indoctrination theory holds true and they finish the ending via FREE DLC.  They keep saying they wanted the ME ending to be unforgettable.  Well, this is it.  We are hear folks.  Because, in the end, they have indoctrinated the gamers themselves.

The debate raging in this very forum is not JUST a debate about indoctrination.  It is a debate about BEING indoctrinated.  Do we believe that the climax of one of the greatest series ever was poorly written with huge plot holes? Or do we believe that they shipped an incomplete game with no real ending at all? Which is the lie and which is truth?

If the indoctrination theory is true then they are, by waiting to deliver the ending, forcing the gaming community into a debate much like the one which would go on in the head of someone fighting indoctrination.  They are 'breaking the fourth wall' in a way not seen since Metal Gear Solid.  Forcing the gamers to be part of the game.

Here's hoping.

[Tiax Rules All]

Egonne wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

It was easy to say that they might have just missed these things and since this makes so much sense they'd go with it in the beginning, but there is just too many things that fit now. If all the people in this thread have come up with this conclusion from what we've discovered, do you really think that after X amount of years of development, no one on the ME team noticed these things?

THIS IS DELIBERATE.

And it's brilliant.

It will go down not only as one of the greatest game series in history, but the greatest reveal for the ending of that series.

Mass Effect could never go out on a whimper, it's going to go out on an earthshattering bang. Just like it should.

'Brilliant' is truly an understatment if the Indoctrination theory holds true and they finish the ending via FREE DLC.  They keep saying they wanted the ME ending to be unforgettable.  Well, this is it.  We are hear folks.  Because, in the end, they have indoctrinated the gamers themselves.

The debate raging in this very forum is not JUST a debate about indoctrination.  It is a debate about BEING indoctrinated.  Do we believe that the climax of one of the greatest series ever was poorly written with huge plot holes? Or do we believe that they shipped an incomplete game with no real ending at all? Which is the lie and which is truth?

If the indoctrination theory is true then they are, by waiting to deliver the ending, forcing the gaming community into a debate much like the one which would go on in the head of someone fighting indoctrination.  They are 'breaking the fourth wall' in a way not seen since Metal Gear Solid.  Forcing the gamers to be part of the game.

Here's hoping.

hallelujah brother. This IS Brilliant.
Bioware made an ending they knew would be hard to get, and they did this knowing not everybody would. but when you let them do what they are doing and stop fighting it, it becomes very memorable and infinately better then a text slideshow epilogue

[Peer of the Empire]

I'm happy to say I picked the destroy ending even before I figured it all out.  That's not to say it was easy, took long enough to get a critical mission failure first.  Very nearly got indoctrinated.  Although it was the middle of the night

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 15 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I'm happy to say I picked the destroy ending even before I figured it all out.  That's not to say it was easy, took long enough to get a critical mission failure first.  Very nearly got indoctrinated

hehe, so just talking, how does that make you feel?

dont you feel good about the ending?
wasn't it cool to realize after the fact that you chose correctly?
and wont it feel good to continue in the DLC with a shp that defeated Harby's best attacks?

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Indeed, I've become quite pleased with the ending. It's sublime and clever. However, I should probably get some sleep ^ ^

Shephard lives!

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 15 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[gosimmons]

I'm very intrigued by the theory. I've been hoping for some kind of alternate choice concerning the ending, but this is making me feel like I should hold out for continuation of the final scene.
If it does hold true the cry for retcon won't be necessary.

I just hope whatever we see offers closure.

[jestermarcus]

The only problem with this is, not everyone has XBL or PSN to download the (better be) free finale. It would have to be on the disk, otherwise, lots of players would be SOL.