1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Smiley556]

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

[suusuuu]

if the ending is a hallucination then bioware sold us a game without an ending? GG

oh by the way, there's a huge thread about the hallucination theory, you might want to drop by there instead of making the 1000th thread about this. you're not the first person that came up with this idea.

Modifié par suusuuu, 13 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[ele25]

There is just to much left to be known. I do not know what happens to rest of the galaxy, earth, my crew, and everything else I did in that game. Then in the end your expected to play god? And giving three obiviously horrible choices, one to destroy all synthetic life, so killing the Geth after all that work I did into saving them and the Quarians. Two controling the reapers, no thanks after what you did you deserved to be destroyed. Three make a new entire life form of synthetic/ organic life. You play god? Sorry My Sheppard would have walked out. Thats what I have done none of those choices are a worthy ending. Was I hoping to live? A Little but would be content on dieing for a more worthy cause. Instead I get kicked in balls.

[Huyna]

All this talks about "deep meaning of the endings", "artistism" and "ambiguousness" reminded me about Benny Hill's Show sketch. Benny Hill portrayed a french director that recently presented his new film. A critics saw this movie and were rejoiced. Director came to interview and host asked him what was director's intention when movie suddenly shifted from color to black and white, or when sound dissapeared in one of the scenes, or when pack of dogs ran across the scenery. What was the hidden meaning behind this? And director explained, that they were simply out of color celluloid, had problems with microphones during record of sound and dogs are just dogs.
Endings were hasty written, abrupt and forced.  No hope, no clisure. no feeling of journey's end. It's actually rather strange, cause ME3 has plenty of strong emotinall and exelent written moments (dialogs with Eve, Mordin's death, all quarian/geth arc and e.t.c.).

Modifié par Huyna, 13 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Humakt83]

Ailith430 wrote...

Yes. Yes it should. If it's not obvious and your audience is confused then you have done something wrong.

If it is too obvious it will be like Melissan from BG2: ToB. You know from the first instance you see her that she is going to betray you. It was really frustrating to know that she will be betray pc character at some point but there was nothing player could do to avert it.

The way indoctrination in Mass Effect 3 is hinted was clear enough for me.

[Dr_Hello]

I'm enjoying reading you people debating and arguing... I was very perplexed too when I first finished the game, disappointed and bit distressed as well... I thought to myself "Really?!! That ending?! So abrupt and cut and dry?!! The cutscenes before the final battle are actually longer than the ending cutscene." ... now I'm telling myself why bother, I got my life to take care of.

But...
IF indeed the indoctrination theory turns out to be true and that the next DLC will actually resume with Shepard waking up to proceed to final battle, to end the war. I would concede, "Bravo BioWare, that was ingenious and daringly clever of you. No TV or movie could have pulled such a trick on its audience. We felt the fear and anxiety of indoctrination. It was a moment of trial and truth..."  But... really, let's all hope that that theory is indeed true...

...otherwise [signing out]

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 13 mars 2012 - 11:26 .

[Tiax Rules All]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Wattoes wrote...

Also the "can you tell me another story" would imply a concusion to the current story.
For some reason, assuming indoctrination, I dont forsee this being realistic.
"In the charge to save the galaxy he failed and got blown to s*** by a lazer"
"SWEET STORY GRANDPA, TELL ME MORE ABOUT HIM"

This.  If the Reapers won through any method, then the scene after the credits makes no sense at all.  That scene pretty much discredits the Indoctrination idea.

not in the least. The war was still one. Thats what the EMF is.
think of it this way.
EMF >4000 = reapers are defeated by glactic forces (not shepard single handedly)
3 choices at end = how Shepard handles his personal struggle with indoctrination (nothing to do with reaper war at that point)

2 different factors for 2 different issues at the end

Shepard was already a legend to the stargazer for gathering the forces not siglehandedly killing all reapers. I mean if shep died in the charge, he would still be a legend to all who knew him, he still acomplished more then anybody else could.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 13 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Pandaman102]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.[...]

Assuming what you say is correct, how does the relevation that everyone has been shoehorned into a single ending make things any better, no matter how brilliant the deception?

"There are many different endings We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?"

Unless they planned on trolling everyone first, then releasing a free DLC (complete with "This is how it REALLY happened", like in the Clue! movie) to provide the promised endings, this doesn't really do anything to improve Bioware's situation. First impressions are the most important and for many this first impression of the ending has blown more than a few gaskets.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 13 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[Aduro]

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

I didn't mean to refute that either. What I meant to convey is that there is a delicate balance when taking this approach. The game needed to be odd enough to get us suspicious but real enough to leave doubt - and to balance these two components so that it doesn't destroy the transition from one to the other or the integrity of the game.

What I meant was that Bioware did not balance it correctly, at least judging by how most of the fans seemed to react.

Modifié par Aduro, 13 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[Ailith Tycane]

Huyna wrote...

All this talks about "deep meaning of the endings", "artistism" and "ambiguousness" reminded me about Benny Hill's Show sketch. Benny Hill portrayed a french director that recently presented his new film. A critics saw this movie and were rejoiced. Director came to interview and host saked him what was director's intention when move suddenly shifted from color to black and white, or when sound dissapeared in one of the scenes, or when pack of dogs ran across the scenery. What was the hidden meaning behind this? And director explained, that they were simply out of color celluloid, had problems with microphones during record of sound and dogs are just dogs.

This. Same thing works the other way around. Someone could have a deep meaning, but the execution is so poor it doesn't matter, the meaning was lost on the audience. For instance, I went to a very small independant film screening in my old home town once, and one of the films featured two frogs riding an old timey bycycle, and it was set up to look like an old silent film. At one point one of the frogs slits the other frogs throat with a razor blade and proceeds to **** the wound, and then the scene ends. The "director" answered questions afterwards, and had a very long, contrived explination about what it mean't, but none of it mattered, because everyone who watched it just saw a stupid 5 minuite clip of animated frogs copulating with open wounds.

[VegaMendoza]

 Right, I believe this needs to be addressed in a proper way. 


So, what is the issue? The issue is that the ending was lackluster, at best just nonsensical and breaking quite a few bonds with the thematic relevance of the game and universe itself. It gave no closure, no explanation nor any real indication about what actually happens after you make your 'choices' (which, though clearly inspired by Deus Ex, seems sloppily at best and abhorrently executed). 

Then we get to the indoctrination hypothesis. I've seen this pop up a bit and I will give it credence enough to be an acceptable explanation to what happened. That's not really the issue since that is just speculations. The issue then becomes how Bioware has figured to progress this storyline. 

That Shepard was indoctrinated and we will get additional content later on that allows to actually finish the game is a catastrophy in its own right. The whole 'Shepard was indoctrinated' could have been a brilliant narrative passagè towards the final end of the game but that it actually ENDS with it is a horrible miscalculated way to tell the story. 

Because not only have they then given us a half-finished product, they then expect us to most likely pay for more in order to end this Epic once and for all. That's extortion in a sense, if you ask me - and if they had been upfront about it I would have been much more benign about it. 

I will make a point that Bioware once created a game that had an expansion pack (there's a term we seldom use) which was very much essential to make the game complete. That was Baldur's Gate 2 and the expansion pack was Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal. The ending of Baldur's Gate 2 was a cliffhanger like nobody else's business but at least then we got the decency to be pretty much assured straight away that this wasn't the end of the story. 

What has happened with ME3 is that we're absolutely not sure one way or the other and they've actually given us an ending of sort, but it is so vastly out of tune with what we'd expect and what is satisfiable required that we are all rather lost on how to deal with the issue, be it denial or anger. 

Now I'd support an expansion pack. Make no mistake there, but I'd damn well wouldn't feel less inclined to criticize the way Bioware has done this. This isn't about how we interpret it or how we demand a "perfect ending", this is about actually being lead to believe that the ending was conclusive and as Mike Gamble said it "Bioware will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions rather answers after finishing the game."* 

Which is sadly exactly what has happened. We have questions, we are bewildered, we don't quite understand what happened in those inevitably insane last 10 minutes where the entire narrative structure crumbled and was reduced to such an open-ended, uncomprehensible ending (and I say ending, because whatever you chose, in the end it really didn't mean a damn) that  broke any thematic relevance or suspension of belief that the game so masterfully had done before. 

In the end this isn't about brighter endings, this isn't about opposing DLCs or wanting everything out of it. It's a genuine complaint about how Bioware handled it and it is a genuine opinion about how the ending we recieved was not at the slightest worthy to justify 3 bought games, 100 of hours spent and emotional investment given to its characters and narrative. 

Quite frankly, I am appalled by the apologists in this issue.


*source: 
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry 

Modifié par VegaMendoza, 13 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[sorentoft]

Wishful thinking. The reality is that Bioware made an ending with little to no logic in it and a thousand plotholes. Sad, but true.

[Tiax Rules All]

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

 yes. Bioware makes you play through real time indoctrination that is unknown to the player, just like it would be unknown to Shep. People who do not pick destroy ending are simply indoctrinated by Bioware and I think that is the coolest thing i have experienced in a game like this. I believe it is in actuallity, good writing that is underaprreciated and misunderstood.

[piemanz]

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

Riddle me that.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 mars 2012 - 11:35 .

[Tiax Rules All]

sorentoft wrote...

Wishful thinking. The reality is that Bioware made an ending with little to no logic in it and a thousand plotholes. Sad, but true.

name some plot holes, I will fill them all with in game facts. This CAN be explained if you allow it to be explained.

[Aduro]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Wishful thinking. The reality is that Bioware made an ending with little to no logic in it and a thousand plotholes. Sad, but true.

name some plot holes, I will fill them all with in game facts. This CAN be explained if you allow it to be explained.

I think he meant to say that we're grasping at straws and that the indoctrination theory is our coping mechanism to cover a poorly done ending with lots of plot holes.

And it's true, ignoring indoctrination theory leaves it as such.

(Again, so you know, I fully support Indoctrination, just what I think he meant).

[kleindropper]

So basically the reapers win in all cases since you don't really "destroy" them in your dream. Great closure.

[Tiax Rules All]

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

[ThatGamerWithSouvlaki285]

Looks like bioware put themselves into big trouble. If the "indocrination" theory or something simillar is true, then it means that they are trying to cash in on a proper ending dlc and/or not giving us proper closer aka trouble for bioware. If its not true and these are the the proper endings, then they are in trouble for poor writings. "Damned if you do, damned if you dont" Owww i hate to be them right now.

[Tiax Rules All]

kleindropper wrote...

So basically the reapers win in all cases since you don't really "destroy" them in your dream. Great closure.

 no the war is won win if you have more then 4000 EMF
Shepard personally only "wins" if he chooses destroy in his dream and beats indoctrination to "live" at te end

[Aduro]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

I'm assuming you're still going with the idea that the indoctrination ending will be continued with DLC, right? Otherwise it would still have been unsatisfying and would have broken many PR promises made not only by people working at Bioware, but the untold promises that having such a diverse choice system in Mass Effect represented. 

[piemanz]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[Smiley556]

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

I didn't mean to refute that either. What I meant to convey is that there is a delicate balance when taking this approach. The game needed to be odd enough to get us suspicious but real enough to leave doubt - and to balance these two components so that it doesn't destroy the transition from one to the other or the integrity of the game.

What I meant was that Bioware did not balance it correctly, at least judging by how most of the fans seemed to react.

Well if assuming what I said is how Bioware intended it. In which case we have a load of people here who do understand the ending, and a load of people who dont, and here we are debating it. It would seem to me they got this 'balance' spot on.

[Billabong2011]

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

[Tiax Rules All]

yes Aduro i fully believe they will be adding post ending DLC in the future. I'm not endorsing it. or saying its ok, just that it seems to be the idea Bioware has.