1594 réponses à ce sujet

[LoboFH]

Read this: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/995452-mass-effect-3/62230265

Personally I think is a well-intentioned fake but this is a Mass Effect ending, Like ME2's suicide mission: you take decissions, you pay the bills...and not this pseudophilosophic crap we got that feels rushed, uninspired, a plot-holes fest, something written for a cheap tarot teleshopping late night program.

Mass Effect was about OUR decissions and a Science-fiction tale, now in the last step it becomes an stupid magic fairy tale and everything we have done in three awesome games means crap.

I don't want a Hollywood Hero happy ending, just an endind with some sense, kill me...but with style.

Modifié par LoboFH, 15 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Egonne]

bobito64 wrote...

I am beginning to think that Bioware may have done something very brave but quite brilliant here. Create an ending that is immediately unsatisfying and somewhat ambiguous. Then let the fans firstly rage and then start to discuss possibilities that it might be more than it seems and there might yet be more to come. The OP is an excellent contribution to this discussion by the way. Once the debate and speculation has had time to work its magic, they unleash the full ending as DLC.

If this is truly what they are doing then I for one will download the DLC when it arrives. If it's the ending that Mass Effect deserves then making us wait for it while we wonder and speculate at what is actually going on will make it all the more exciting when it does arrive.

I agree with the brilliance.  If they truly did what it seems they have done.

In the movie 'A Beautiful Mind' the director lets us into the mind of a schizophrenic.  We KNOW what schizophrenics do, but the movie allows us to UNDERSTAND their behavior and delusions because we, the veiwers, have been deluded ourselves by the movie.  We become part of the schizophrenic's world.  We understand how their odd and sometimes seemingly violent behavior is rational from THEIR perspective.

This is what Mass Effect has done for indoctrination.  The difference between an evil character and an indoctrinated one was the evil character does evil and KNOWS it to be evil.  An indoctrinated character does evil and THINKS he is doing the right thing.  We always KNEW the difference between the evil character and the indoctrinated one; but did we truly UNDERSTAND the difference.

We, as Mass Effect players, always knew that Saren wasn't truly evil (at least since the ending of ME 1) but that he was indoctrinated.  We knew that HE thought he was doing the right thing.  But did we truly understand what he was going through from HIS perspective?

If the indoctrination theory is correct, now we do understand...because the game created the illusion by which we can understand the struggles of an indoctrinated individual.

'Brilliant' is far too mild a description.

[Smiley556]

I dont think we should rule out the posibility that Bioware did indeed make a mistake. The mistake of understimating the response to whatever they are planning among the fans. (or overestimating their players intelligence...)

Modifié par Smiley556, 15 mars 2012 - 04:19 .

[Tiax Rules All]

UKJackMan wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

UKJackMan wrote...

If you look at Shepard's speech wheel when he first speaks to the Illusive man during the ending it has BLUE: You don't get it. RED: Were not the enemy here. TOP RIGHT: Don't do this.LOWER RIGHT: Control is pointless.

Are these clues?

the whole fcuking thing is a clue, why do thesethings not make sense? becasue they are made not to..
how does one know hes in a dream? its not easy to think logically in a dream, wierd things happen and you are lead to believe they are real.

Bioware wrote the indoctrination sequence so well that people accept face value when they actually should have written it with even more obvious holes  so even the blind squirells can find the nuts..

The more I look the more clues I see . Another part of the ending speech wheel  YOU ARE BLIND Another BLUE:You didnt earn this power. Oh boy am I going to have fun picking this apart............

anderson is sheps consciece/ moral influence / ending coach, projected by shep
TIM is the control option projected by the reapers..

that conversation is full force "snap out of it Shepard"
even though it doesnt really happen, shooting anderson against your will is showing you this is what happens whe you trust reapers. you cant control them, they control you.. and they made you shoot your conscience.. etc etc.

[cyborg2501]

Egonne wrote...

bobito64 wrote...

I am beginning to think that Bioware may have done something very brave but quite brilliant here. Create an ending that is immediately unsatisfying and somewhat ambiguous. Then let the fans firstly rage and then start to discuss possibilities that it might be more than it seems and there might yet be more to come. The OP is an excellent contribution to this discussion by the way. Once the debate and speculation has had time to work its magic, they unleash the full ending as DLC.

If this is truly what they are doing then I for one will download the DLC when it arrives. If it's the ending that Mass Effect deserves then making us wait for it while we wonder and speculate at what is actually going on will make it all the more exciting when it does arrive.

I agree with the brilliance.  If they truly did what it seems they have done.

In the movie 'A Beautiful Mind' the director lets us into the mind of a schizophrenic.  We KNOW what schizophrenics do, but the movie allows us to UNDERSTAND their behavior and delusions because we, the veiwers, have been deluded ourselves by the movie.  We become part of the schizophrenic's world.  We understand how their odd and sometimes seemingly violent behavior is rational from THEIR perspective.

This is what Mass Effect has done for indoctrination.  The difference between an evil character and an indoctrinated one was the evil character does evil and KNOWS it to be evil.  An indoctrinated character does evil and THINKS he is doing the right thing.  We always KNEW the difference between the evil character and the indoctrinated one; but did we truly UNDERSTAND the difference.

We, as Mass Effect players, always knew that Saren wasn't truly evil (at least since the ending of ME 1) but that he was indoctrinated.  We knew that HE thought he was doing the right thing.  But did we truly understand what he was going through from HIS perspective?

If the indoctrination theory is correct, now we do understand...because the game created the illusion by which we can understand the struggles of an indoctrinated individual.

'Brilliant' is far too mild a description.

+1.. Well said

[comanche warior]

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

[Rawgrim]

Smiley556 wrote...

I dont think we should rule out the posibility that Bioware did indeed make a mistake. The mistake of understimating the response to whatever they are planning among the fans. (or overestimating their players intelligence...)

You could argue that simplifying the whole game, and catering to the CoD crowd might have backfired. Its not like such players are used to endings that forces you to think. (not attacking anyone here, just voicing a thought).

[Smiley556]

comanche warior wrote...

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

What about it?

[Tiax Rules All]

LoboFH wrote...

Read this: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/995452-mass-effect-3/62230265

Personally I think is a well-intentioned fake but this is a Mass Effect ending, Like ME2's suicide mission: you take decissions, you pay the bills...and not this pseudophilosophic crap we got that feels rushed, uninspired, a plot-holes fest, something written for a cheap tarot teleshopping late night program.

Mass Effect was about OUR decissions and a Science-fiction tale, now in the last step it becomes an stupid magic fairy tale and everything we have done in three awesome games means crap.

I don't want a Hollywood Hero happy ending, just and endind with some sense, kill me...but with style.

nope, the difference there is he doesnt back his stuff up with examples from game and goes off about details the game doesn't even begin to touch.

My OP isn't perfect now either. it needs adjustment in some spots, but its still better.

[Smiley556]

Rawgrim wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

I dont think we should rule out the posibility that Bioware did indeed make a mistake. The mistake of understimating the response to whatever they are planning among the fans. (or overestimating their players intelligence...)

You could argue that simplifying the whole game, and catering to the CoD crowd might have backfired. Its not like such players are used to endings that forces you to think. (not attacking anyone here, just voicing a thought).

Hey! I play CoD and I like it...

[Rawgrim]

comanche warior wrote...

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

That bit could be pretty unrelated to the ending itself. Say its set 1 million years in the future. No matter the outcome of the game, it could just be another civilization on the rise - who may or may not be attacked by the reapers soon. Who knows. Personally, I felt that little scene was out of place in the Destroy ending.

[MintyCool]

Zeroscape wrote...

I'd like to point out that until we get the official announcement and explanation of this "Ending DLC" everything here is speculation. This is less about proving a theory and more about realizing that something's up.

Ending DLC is nothing more than false hope. It only smudges up the main discussion with props and gags. Kind of like charities and Indoctrination theroies.

I already discussed about this here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9963556/1

Art/Entertainment is a constant cycle of "good enough's" so you have the chance to work on something new that excites you. This is what Bioware ended up doing, this tales saga is complete.

Modifié par MintyCool, 15 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[Saku39]

Egonne wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

evisneffo wrote...

So Tiax, if your theory is correct - and I don't fault your defence - this game I have is a conclusion to the saga without a conclusion. The question of future DLC is irrelevant: the game, advertised and sold as an ending, is incomplete. Pardon me if I say this doesn't make me feel any better.

it has and ending, a twist ending that leads into further content but an ending.

Thats what Bioware will tell you, anyways if i buy ME3 and they realease ME3.1 to me for free.. then who cares they are giving you and ending just a tad later at no extra cost, why you mad?

I don't think they COULD release the real ending with the game and accomplish the same effect.  If the indoctrination theory is true (and in my mind this seem likely) then having Shepard wakes up 30 seconds after making the destroy/control/synthesis decision simply wouldn't have the same impact.

MAYBE if they had rolled the credits THEN finished the game with Shepard waking up it would have worked, but I think it would have greatly diminished the ending.

They HAD to hold onto the ending to let players be fooled; the same way Sixth Sense and Beautiful Mind couldn't reveal their 'twist' until the very end.  The illusion needs time to simmer in order for there to be an 'aha' moment worthy of the illusion.

This. It's brilliant, really. So many tiny clues. Have you guys seen this? Right after the ghostly images around the edges begin, and Anderson says "They're controlling YOU!!" Guys, he's looking right at YOU.

i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/XVVV/TheyarecontrollingYOU.jpg

Shepard - " . . . LET ME DESTROY THE REAPERS!"

Then TIM says, "Still not a believer, Shepard?" Well? Are you getting it yet? That scene is really, really weird. All the dialogue is just . . . wrong somehow. Why all the whispering? And why is the camera like that? The creators are clearly telling us that this is not what it seems. The lines play out the Starchild choice.

Also, those of you "Controllers" out there, TIM explains it better that you ever could why it's a good idea to control the Reapers. And Saren was much more poetic than any of you when he advocated ascending, and combining with the Reapers.

So why not just post their dialogue instead of your own arguments? Here, I'll start.

"Control is the means to survival. Control of the Reapers, and of you if necessary."

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?"

Modifié par Saku39, 15 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[AartB]

clearly op doenst get the fact that its nothing to do with not understanding the ending. its how many people feel about. just the sheer fact that topic is easely 1 against a million topics that disagree with you at this point any argument you put forward wont matter anyway. no matter if its a good argument or not.

i disagree with you completely and i sorta envy you for beeing able to like the ending. right now i cant bare to even touch the game without feeling gutted

[Aetius5]

HEY! OP! Well done, ser. Bravo! I wish more people like you were on the forums. It all makes sense now. Bioware should of released this game in April for the way they just trolled us. Best April Fool's prank ever!

[Zeroscape]

Rawgrim wrote...

comanche warior wrote...

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

That bit could be pretty unrelated to the ending itself. Say its set 1 million years in the future. No matter the outcome of the game, it could just be another civilization on the rise - who may or may not be attacked by the reapers soon. Who knows. Personally, I felt that little scene was out of place in the Destroy ending.

Indeed, it's pretty tricky to really say anything conclusive about it. It could be part of the illusion and Shep's mind thinking life will continue on. Or it could very well happen regardless of your choice + any ending dlc to come and just serve as a reminder that there's a future to the ME universe.

Considering Shep is a legend and details are lost to time indicates this is many years in the future. Perhaps an indication of where the next ME game(s) will be set.

Ultimately, for the purpose of figuring out what's happening in regards to the ending, it's irrelevant.

[Smiley556]

AartB wrote...

clearly op doenst get the fact that its nothing to do with not understanding the ending. its how many people feel about. just the sheer fact that topic is easely 1 against a million topics that disagree with you at this point any argument you put forward wont matter anyway. no matter if its a good argument or not.

i disagree with you completely and i sorta envy you for beeing able to like the ending. right now i cant bare to even touch the game without feeling gutted

I think you have no idea what Tiax feels like if this is what you think, and that your missing the whole point of this thread. 

The fact that people disagree with any argument that is put forward nomatter what, that says allot more about those people wouldnt you say?

Modifié par Smiley556, 15 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Rawgrim wrote...

comanche warior wrote...

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

That bit could be pretty unrelated to the ending itself. Say its set 1 million years in the future. No matter the outcome of the game, it could just be another civilization on the rise - who may or may not be attacked by the reapers soon. Who knows. Personally, I felt that little scene was out of place in the Destroy ending.

i HAD a trascript of the stargazer at one point.. its evenclearer in text.

nothing stagazer said is or would be invalidated by anything that happend at your ending or any future dlc...

"did that all really happen?"
"yes but some of the details are lost to time. it all happened so veery long ago."

this could mean ANYTHING you want. It means Stargazer doesn't have to be accurate.

"when can i go to the stars?"
"one day my sweet"

Hes a boy, one day could be when hes old enough to fly.. NEVER says relays are gone or that they dont have space flight

"what will be there?"
"anything you can imagine, our galaxy has billions of stars, each star has planets etc etc"

he knows an aweful lot about space, and just because he doesnt say "there are turians up there" doesn't mean he doesn't know that, he just doesn't SAY IT.

"tell me another story about the shepard"
"its getting late, but ok, one more story...."

Obvious segue into DLC

that is all the dialog of stargazer tell me what the dlc could do to make that invalid. Its vague enough to encompass anything that happens in the "one more story" 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

No. notice how you only wake up if you got enough war assets, the reapers need shepard indoctrinated so they can use him to stop the allied forces. If you dont have enough assets then the reapers arn't as worried about the forces attacking them and as a result they don't even offer him the most enticing choice (I.E they arn't trying as hard to indoctrinate him). So if shepard resists then they can't use him to stop the allied forces and as a result the reapers could die due to the massive army you spent the whole game putting together.

Stop what allied forces?  If every that happens after Shepard gets hit by the beam is a dream, then the Hammer task force is dead.  The radio chatter said no one got to the beam.  There's no way to get into the Citadel and start up the Crucible.  The Reapers win.  They don't need Shepard.  Why bother with all the smoke and mirrors?

If the organics and their plucky, rakishly dressed sidekick geth have any hope of defeating the Reapers in a straight up fight, then why send someone into the Citadel to activate the Crucible?  The Hammer task force is a deperate play.  Without it, the organics know they're done for. 

It remains a much simpler choice for the Reapers to simply kill a wounded and dreaming Shepard rather than whip up the Catalyst created sideshow that Hallucination Theory presents.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 15 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[Zeroscape]

AartB wrote...

clearly op doenst get the fact that its nothing to do with not understanding the ending. its how many people feel about. just the sheer fact that topic is easely 1 against a million topics that disagree with you at this point any argument you put forward wont matter anyway. no matter if its a good argument or not.

i disagree with you completely and i sorta envy you for beeing able to like the ending. right now i cant bare to even touch the game without feeling gutted

Well, I am gutted regarding the ending as well. I have no sense of closure and that naturally has a lot of people re-analyzing the ending to 'grasp for straws' in order to feel better. 

Yet I truly believe there's something to this. There's enough indiciation from tweets, the ending sequences (in particular the Shep 'gasp for life', like Tiax has said) and overal themes that there's more to the ending than meets the eye.

But don't take our word for it, think about the endings and rewatch some of the scenes and make up your own mind. I realize there's a lot of hurt people out there and I was right there with you. 

Hang in there.

[comanche warior]

Zeroscape wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

comanche warior wrote...

ok i can see this theory but what about at the very end after the credits when it comes to the scene with the stargazers?

That bit could be pretty unrelated to the ending itself. Say its set 1 million years in the future. No matter the outcome of the game, it could just be another civilization on the rise - who may or may not be attacked by the reapers soon. Who knows. Personally, I felt that little scene was out of place in the Destroy ending.

Indeed, it's pretty tricky to really say anything conclusive about it. It could be part of the illusion and Shep's mind thinking life will continue on. Or it could very well happen regardless of your choice + any ending dlc to come and just serve as a reminder that there's a future to the ME universe.

Considering Shep is a legend and details are lost to time indicates this is many years in the future. Perhaps an indication of where the next ME game(s) will be set.

Ultimately, for the purpose of figuring out what's happening in regards to the ending, it's irrelevant.

Ive noticed that the planet with the star gazers is the same planet that Joker and your LI crash land on at the end. Thats what I'm getting at it just seems wierd but the ending are already wierd.

[Tiax Rules All]

AartB wrote...

clearly op doenst get the fact that its nothing to do with not understanding the ending. its how many people feel about. just the sheer fact that topic is easely 1 against a million topics that disagree with you at this point any argument you put forward wont matter anyway. no matter if its a good argument or not.

i disagree with you completely and i sorta envy you for beeing able to like the ending. right now i cant bare to even touch the game without feeling gutted

if i were to assume i know eveything about you, i would say that you first conclusion was bad writing, and if you were presented with something that made the writing make sense, you would reject it because accepting it would mean you have to admit to yourslef and possibly others that you were initally wrong, or duped. and that if you didnt come up with it on your own, then its not worth coming up with at all.

my brother does this all the time, i call him out for leaving a mess, he escalates and rages about a different topic. louder and louder till i give up and walk away, he has learned that this is easier to do then admit his wrong.

[Zeroscape]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

annoyingpoodle wrote...

Shepard's story is over. From the current evidence, Hallucination Theory officially busted.

No. notice how you only wake up if you got enough war assets, the reapers need shepard indoctrinated so they can use him to stop the allied forces. If you dont have enough assets then the reapers arn't as worried about the forces attacking them and as a result they don't even offer him the most enticing choice (I.E they arn't trying as hard to indoctrinate him). So if shepard resists then they can't use him to stop the allied forces and as a result the reapers could die due to the massive army you spent the whole game putting together.



Stop what allied forces?  If every that happens after Shepard gets hit by the beam is a dream, then the Hammer task force is dead.  The radio chatter said no one got to the beam.  There's no way to get into the Citadel and start up the Crucible.  The Reapers win.  They don't need Shepard.  Why bother with all the smoke and mirrors?

If the organics and their plucky, rakishly dressed sidekick geth have any hope of defeating the Reapers in a straight up fight, then why send someone into the Citadel to activate the Crucible?  The Hammer task force is a deperate play.  Without it, the organics know they're done for. 

It remains a much simpler choice for the Reapers to simply kill a wounded and dreaming Shepard rather than whip up the Catalyst created sideshow that Hallucination Theory presents.

We have no way of knowing how the situation changed during and as a consequence of our 'dream sequence'. 

Killing the 'possessed' super Saren at the end of ME1 disrupted Sovereign's barriers to allow the fleet to destroy it. It could very well be that we might have some effect on the Reaper(s) by going through that sequence. Who knows what, but it could give the 'organics and their plucky Geth sidekicks' time to make a move.

But we have no way of knowing due to lack of information and any idea we come up with could easily be shot down.

Modifié par Zeroscape, 15 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[FOX216BC]

 This all what there is to say

[Zyrious]

Smiley556 wrote...

AartB wrote...

clearly op doenst get the fact that its nothing to do with not understanding the ending. its how many people feel about. just the sheer fact that topic is easely 1 against a million topics that disagree with you at this point any argument you put forward wont matter anyway. no matter if its a good argument or not.

i disagree with you completely and i sorta envy you for beeing able to like the ending. right now i cant bare to even touch the game without feeling gutted

I think you have no idea what Tiax feels like if this is what you think, and that your missing the whole point of this thread. 

The fact that people disagree with any argument that is put forward nomatter what, that says allot more about those people wouldnt you say?

What, you mean that people dont treat your "theories" as facts, and remain skeptical, especially since developer intentions in the script, the Stargazer scene, and even the tweet calling shep living an "Easter Egg" as opposed to "Critical plot point"....

You guys are the ones treating this theory as fact, betraying the very word "theory". Infact this isnt even a theory, it's techically still in the hypothesis stage.