1594 réponses à ce sujet

[LetheAlethe]

Aduro wrote...


I think he meant to say that we're grasping at straws and that the indoctrination theory is our coping mechanism to cover a poorly done ending with lots of plot holes.

And it's true, ignoring indoctrination theory leaves it as such.

(Again, so you know, I fully support Indoctrination, just what I think he meant).

That's what I think too. While I could see how it could be true (I don't like it even if it is, because it's an awful ending that also resolves nothing, the only reason I could like it is because then I might get myself to believe they will still release DLC to resolve things), I just don't think it is.

I think Bioware was just really sloppy and left a lot of plotholes and inconsistencies and an out-of-the-blue, empty ending. And I think in the end, they won't do anything to improve it, this will just be what we're left with, no DLC. Then we can maybe choose to believe it was indoctrination after all, and imagine the rest, which may or may not be better than not doing so.

But that's no reason to stop objecting. That I think there will be results, is not the reason I voice my opinion. It's just what ought to be done.

[Qutayba]

Part of me finds the indoctrination theory appealing, because I was actually convinced of that my first play-though. But then it started lasting longer than I thought it should have. I kept waiting for Shep to shake the indoctrination. But then the game was over.

But if that's the ending, it's a rotten joke and a really risky business gamble. Even if they were planning to reveal that there will be a free DLC with the real ending a month after the release, it would cause a lot of rage, and justifiably so. To be honest, though, part of me would be HAPPY that there was a real ending. But I can't imagine they'd subject themselves to a tidal wave of anger just to have a GOTCHA! gimmick.

I find the idea that they made a narrative mistake much more bearable than that they are deliberating screwing with us.

My take on the statement that it will make some people angry is that they thought people would be pissed that Shep dies. While that adds salt to the wound for some people, that's not really the primary problem people have.

[Pandaman102]

steph285 wrote...

Looks like bioware put themselves into big trouble. If the "indocrination" theory or something simillar is true, then it means that they are trying to cash in on a proper ending dlc and/or not giving us proper closer aka trouble for bioware. If its not true and these are the the proper endings, then they are in trouble for poor writings. "Damned if you do, damned if you dont" Owww i hate to be them right now.

A good joke can be ruined by missing the punchline, in ME3's case if this ending was meant to be a "joke" to fake out the fans, then they missed their punchline by several days. And counting.

[MrPuschel]

tl;dr troll is still troll.

[sorentoft]

Aduro wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Wishful thinking. The reality is that Bioware made an ending with little to no logic in it and a thousand plotholes. Sad, but true.

name some plot holes, I will fill them all with in game facts. This CAN be explained if you allow it to be explained.

I think he meant to say that we're grasping at straws and that the indoctrination theory is our coping mechanism to cover a poorly done ending with lots of plot holes.

And it's true, ignoring indoctrination theory leaves it as such.

(Again, so you know, I fully support Indoctrination, just what I think he meant).

You are correct. I mean no disrespect or disregard however, I simply disagree.

[Aduro]

Smiley556 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

I didn't mean to refute that either. What I meant to convey is that there is a delicate balance when taking this approach. The game needed to be odd enough to get us suspicious but real enough to leave doubt - and to balance these two components so that it doesn't destroy the transition from one to the other or the integrity of the game.

What I meant was that Bioware did not balance it correctly, at least judging by how most of the fans seemed to react.

Well if assuming what I said is how Bioware intended it. In which case we have a load of people here who do understand the ending, and a load of people who dont, and here we are debating it. It would seem to me they got this 'balance' spot on.

I like having a back and forth with you Smiley  You seem insightful.

Yes, there seems to be a balance now, but most of those that now adhere to the indoctrination theory (including myself) had to be shown it on the forums. An insightful, intelligent group started to peice it together and many others found the logic of it after they finished the ending. I read through almost 60 pages in the main Indoctrination thread, a good portion of the comments were from people who hadn't seen it at all and were very glad to be presented with the option.

[Icinix]

Tiax lectured....
FINAL NOTE
I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.

I agree - and think if this is the case - its fantastic!

..but the issue then becomes....where is the real ending? What actually happened with the Crucible..the galaxy....

[Rulycar]

So ... according to OP's theory
... building the crucible was a futile waste of effort?
... Was Hackett indoctrinated, too?
... He assured Shepard, the Reapers could not be defeated by conventional means.
... Therefore,
... the reapers win,
... Shepard dies in a pile of rubble in London,
... the cycle continues,
... and the Mass Effect Trilogy becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

It is easier to believe a corporation took my money and sold me fecal matter.

[Tiax Rules All]

Billabong2011 wrote...

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

This i get alot and mainly its becasue it just seems too risky and out of the box to try. so the real denial is not me making up endings for myself but NOT seeing this ending for what it really is.

I think its crazy ambitious and ballsy as hell but I do believe it was inteded to be a deep ending that made you question yourself and what you saw thouroguhly

[salbine]

Bassyblue wrote...

The problem is that even if the indoctrination theory is correct, you're still not getting an ending. I'm getting rather sick of people saying "oh you just don't get the ending, you have to think about it a bit". If you have to think that hard about it and then realise that nothing has been solved then you'd know it's not an ending in the first place and everything being said about indoctrination theory is invalid as an ending. More like a "buy our ending pack DLC" argument.

Agreed. I just posted as much (about the DLC) in another thread.

As for those saying we just weren't smart enough to get the ending, sorry, that's bull. If a writer released a novel and a handful of people didn't get the ending, sure, it's probably them. If most people didn't get the ending and a bunch of 1-star reviews appear, then that's the writer's fault. Pacing and muttering, "Those morons. They didn't get my brilliant ending!" would be comical. The writer failed. Period.

In this case, I think BioWare intentionally did it to sell a DLC. The writers knew exactly what they were doing...releasing an incomplete game. Not cool when it's the final game in a trilogy. Very disrespectful to the fan base. They screwed up, and they need to apologize with a free DLC that wraps up the trilogy in a satisfying manner.

Modifié par salbine, 13 mars 2012 - 11:57 .

[Smiley556]

Billabong2011 wrote...

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

Your input is Very much apreciated. But for arguments sake it would be very much apreciated if you stated Why you dont believe Bioware intended it. 

I'm just finding it strange that people have so little faith in Bioware that they rather believe they made some strange bad ending full of plotholes instead of believing they made an ending which was well written and made sense. Afterall the hallucination theory has allot of evidence supporting it, where the oposite is mostly made up of 'its incosistent cos the writing sucks and the plotholes are there cos bioware cocked up'. I just want to know Why you would prefer to believe the later.

[Kronner]

Sorry, but OP is a bunch of crap. It makes no sense whatsoever and is not supported by any solid evidence.

[charmedmeat]

Please explain why they would knowingly upset their entire fanbase and risk a huge backlash and future sales? Oh that's right they wouldn't. This is why the hallucination theory is bunk, because they would have to realize they'd be facing exactly what they are without making it blatantly obvious (e.g. a cutscene at the end showing Shepard on Earth hallucinating).

[Chaife]

I would love to believe in the indoctrination ending and that Bioware actually plan on releasing DLC for the proper ending. But if that's the case than it is even worse. I watched interviews with Casey Hudson saying we would be getting an ending to the series we wanted, if they didn't even include the actual ending on the CD's and planned to release it through DLC I don't think they would have made this statement. And if it was planned and they charge us for the actual ending, that is just petty. You also have to think of the people who play offline, that would mean a good portion of players won't see the actual ending...I'd like to believe in the planned ending DLC but I don't think Bioware would stoop that low...

[nevar00]

If they actually expand on that with a free DLC, I agree that the endings will have been very unique and intriguing.

Left as it is though, there is little closure and every decision you made in the series not only doesn't matter but is rendered obsolete; little hints at other endings or not.

[piemanz]

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Just out of intrest, do you still get the stargazer and legend status if you choose the Sythesis ending?

Modifié par piemanz, 13 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Rulycar wrote...

So ... according to OP's theory
... building the crucible was a futile waste of effort?
... Was Hackett indoctrinated, too?
... He assured Shepard, the Reapers could not be defeated by conventional means.
... Therefore,
... the reapers win,
... Shepard dies in a pile of rubble in London,
... the cycle continues,
... and the Mass Effect Trilogy becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

It is easier to believe a corporation took my money and sold me fecal matter.

... not a waste it won the war, just not with shep at the helm, he was on earth. Others moved crucible into place in space.

... no? why would he be, he gave you a direct order to destroy TIM and reapers before finale
... shep took down a few reapers by conventional means. he didnt lie, just didnt believe
... the reapers only win if you do not get above 4000 EMF,
... shepard MAY die but thats seperate from wether or not the war is won
... not if you chose destroy
... no

[Wikkr]

Ok i read through your post but nowhere in there did i see a valid explanation to justify the travesty that is those endings. Dont get me wrong im praying your right and that it was all a dream that will be fixed with some DLC to give us the actual ending and bioware are just trying to screw more money out of us.

But the fact that theyd do so in such a cackhanded way. Up until the last 10 minutes this is one of the most lovingly crafted games ive ever played. you can tell the developers cared about the game as the polished gem of a story continues to evolve. to suddenly tack on an ending that has little to nothing to do with the story in the last 10 minutes is ludicrous. This is either the stupidest marketing ploy to sell DLC ive ever seen OR Bioware tried to do something clever with the ending of an epic saga which has backfired in their face

[MrPuschel]

There's still the cg after the whole thing happened with all-cyborg- leafs and cyborg-joker on that planet. Theory doesnt makes sense because this "hallucination" still exists after shepards dead and even the hardest prophet of the indoctrination theory will not say that some kind of super-hallucination-beam travels trough the galaxy and turns everyone into an indoctrinated retard who beliefes he's a cyborg now.

[Lugaidster]

Rulycar wrote...

So ... according to OP's theory
... building the crucible was a futile waste of effort?
... Was Hackett indoctrinated, too?
... He assured Shepard, the Reapers could not be defeated by conventional means.
... Therefore,
... the reapers win,
... Shepard dies in a pile of rubble in London,
... the cycle continues,
... and the Mass Effect Trilogy becomes a pointless exercise in futility.

It is easier to believe a corporation took my money and sold me fecal matter.

It goes to show that you actually didn't get the explanation. The crucible hasn't been used because Shepard hasn't gone up to the citadel to open the arms. The rest you wrote is just rubish.

[Detha]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I dont think the outrage is as widespread as you may think. If you have been here long enough you will see that issues are always blown way outta proportion and exagerrated on the BSN. I was actually one that participated in polls and threads saying that i hated it and was totally agreeing with the "bad ending" crew.

But i HAVE flipped. I am no longer bitter about it knowing what I know and now I am here trying to help a few others that could be just like me.

You've become indoctrinated with the indoctrinators.

Also, I see an awful lot of people "at peace" with admitted ambiguousness and possible wrongness.  Like, "Yeah, we know it could be fake, but it's actually really real".  No, your hopeful suspicion that this may be real is on overdrive and you are, for the most part, ignoring your sense of logic that warns you from buying too far into it.  Why?  Because you don't want this game series you've been following for 5 years to have such a simply yet tremendously lackluster ending.

Like, it's a fine theory, but it's pointlessly convoluted.  It's so far beyond any level of convoluted Bioware has ever done, or any video game for that matter.  It happens in the last 10 minutes and completely clashes with the relatively simple, straight and narrow narrative of Mass Effect (or as I'd like to call it, the series' general IQ).  Now some of you are possibly saying "That's just it!  That's why it's brilliant!",  but it's also against evidence.  I'm not saying it's impossible, however; however, let's be honest:  how many of these "hallucination theories" over the years, about anything, have ever really panned out? 

Sure, Shepard breathes at the end, but the destruction path never said he'd die.  You might wonder what happened after that, and if you get enough points, it shows you that  "Yes, Shepard lived".  I mean, couldn't that be just as plausible?  Or actually even more so?

Now, I do appreciate the theory.  My favorite points are the facts that no one else interacts with the kid, and James mentioning the "hum".  That last one struck me as "off", in game.  He only starts saying it after a certain amount of the way through.

If the indoctrination theory pans out, it would be cool.  Just make up for the lack of closure, please.

Modifié par Detha, 13 mars 2012 - 12:21 .

[Aduro]

charmedmeat wrote...

Please explain why they would knowingly upset their entire fanbase and risk a huge backlash and future sales? Oh that's right they wouldn't. This is why the hallucination theory is bunk, because they would have to realize they'd be facing exactly what they are without making it blatantly obvious (e.g. a cutscene at the end showing Shepard on Earth hallucinating).

Smiley addressed this before. If done correctly, Bioware comes off as the greatest story-tellers in the gaming industry. It can be perceived as an attempt at meta-story telling. The risk is mishandling it, and it is a rather delicate state. Then again, Bioware may have incorrectly predicted what would become of such a stunt, and we thus have our current predicament .

[sorentoft]

Smiley556 wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

Your input is Very much apreciated. But for arguments sake it would be very much apreciated if you stated Why you dont believe Bioware intended it. 

I'm just finding it strange that people have so little faith in Bioware that they rather believe they made some strange bad ending full of plotholes instead of believing they made an ending which was well written and made sense. Afterall the hallucination theory has allot of evidence supporting it, where the oposite is mostly made up of 'its incosistent cos the writing sucks and the plotholes are there cos bioware cocked up'. I just want to know Why you would prefer to believe the later.

I quite honestly believe the indoctrination hypothesis to be bogus, it is not because it does not make sense if you want it to, it is because it is built on straws and people trying to make sense of what is in reality a very badly constructed ending. In fact you need to look at the final scene to know that it was just a way for fans to cope. To get over the fact that the company they knew and loved to make great stories somehow completely dropped the ball on this one and ruined three great games in 15 minutes.

I am sorry to bring my argument out like this, I really am, but I just cannot formulate it any differently.

[Tiax Rules All]

piemanz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Just out of intrest, do you still get the stargazer and legend status if you choose the Sythesis ending?

yes but remember synthesis never happens, Shep imagines it but really he loses his battle to indoctrination and never "wakes up" at end.

so in a black and white way, control and synthesis are the same. you comprimise with reapers.. you get indoctrinated. ONLY sticking to the 3 game running morals of destroying them do you get to conquer indoctrination and live.

[Aduro]

(hit quote instead of edit, ignore this >_<)

Modifié par Aduro, 13 mars 2012 - 11:53 .