1594 réponses à ce sujet

[RaynerJA]

The Ghost kid/Catalyst dont want to wipe "All" organic life, but only the advanced organic life forms, he says it, if you pay attention, and the reapers gather tecnology cycle by cycle so reapers have to save the primitive life forms to the next cycle.

So reapers are at all just some addicts in tecnology:O

Modifié par RaynerJA, 17 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[annoyingpoodle]

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

ronbo_68 wrote...

Here is a question for everyone. I don't know Tiax but i do believe he has stated in another thread he started that if he is wrong about this, he will apologize to everyone.

And yet in the meanwhile he's continuing to be rude and condescending to those who disagree with him.

ya, know I MUST be rude and condescending because I don't really notice im doing it.

That could definitely account for why you chose a thread title that implied that anyone who disagreed with you had to be too stupid to understand the ending ofthe game without your help.

People not "getting it" isn't why they had a problem with the endings. The game not actually having an ending is why they had a problem - as I said upthread, it doesn't end, it just stops. You have chosen to decide that this means we're going to get the DLC that, despite your own admission that you have no proof that it will be made available, you insist will prove you right about everything. That's arguing by assertion (a basic logicsl fallacy), not to mention unduly arrogant for someone who has criticised others for not being able to provide evidence to back up their opinions in other posts.

It's entirely possible that the whole game was about the Reapers trying to indoctrinate Shepard, and the starkid was just part of that, but it's also entirely possible that the starkid was telling the truth. In one of your conversations with Javik, he reveals that the first sign of trouble in his cycle was their creation of synthetics, and in another he reveals that they were the ones that manipulated the rachni into being so vicious. Both of these are examples of the theme of the Created inevitably rising up against the Creator, and the timing of the Reaper attacks beginning soon after the Protheans' war with their synthetic creations indicates that war might have been what caused the Reapers to attack.

in the aftermath of the Rannoch mission Javik states that peace can never exist between organic and sythentic.

Also, the conversation that Shepard has with the dying Reaper on Rannoch where it talks about how the Reapers are te only hope that organics have of avoiding an otherwise inevitable doom could signify that the what the starkid said was true. All of these things are as much a part of the game as the things you based your conclusions on, and all of them lend themselves to equally valid conclusions.

Which brings us back to why you came across as smug and condescending: It's not just your refusal to treat seriously the possibility that you were wrong, but also the way that you proceeded from a presented asumption that the only legitimate reason why somebody might not share you conclusions was if they weren't bright enough to, and that you were helping the poor fools who just didn't "get it".

The starchild was the voice of the reapers in shepards head and the reason the reapers destroy organics was given by sovereign in the first game which is basically what the starchild repeated. The two options other then destroy where exactly what the reapers where trying to do, turn people into organic/synthetic slaves similar to the collectors or the control choice which is what lead me to think the whole scene was a indoctrination attempt because Javik stated that in his cycle there where people who tried to control the reapers which is why the crucible never worked.

[Mazzo0279]

To the OP off course many of us get the ending is just soooooo badly written and filled with contradictions that its a joke. They create synthetics slaughtering us, to save ourselves from synthetics slaughtering us and we are supposed to swallow that? Sovereigns explanations makes far more sense that they just want to harvest our technology.

[Wolvy]

I was looking through the forums and saw this thread from a couple days ago.

http://social.biowar...index/9992961/1

Any thoughts, theories on it or how it may interfere with the indoc theory?

[Silveralen]

Your right, Bioware did an amazing job of crafting an ending so disappointing the fans have convinced themselves it was all just a dream so they can take some measure of joy from it.

[annoyingpoodle]

Silveralen wrote...

Your right, Bioware did an amazing job of crafting an ending so disappointing the fans have convinced themselves it was all just a dream so they can take some measure of joy from it.

So your saying bioware accidentally added all of those clues which point to some form of indoctrination/hallucination.

[Kanon777]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

Your right, Bioware did an amazing job of crafting an ending so disappointing the fans have convinced themselves it was all just a dream so they can take some measure of joy from it.

So your saying bioware accidentally added all of those clues which point to some form of indoctrination/hallucination.

The only way to deny IT is to say Bioware wanted to do it at some point but they scrapped the idea.

[annoyingpoodle]

tobito113 wrote...

annoyingpoodle wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

Your right, Bioware did an amazing job of crafting an ending so disappointing the fans have convinced themselves it was all just a dream so they can take some measure of joy from it.

So your saying bioware accidentally added all of those clues which point to some form of indoctrination/hallucination.

The only way to deny IT is to say Bioware wanted to do it at some point but they scrapped the idea.

lol which would be hilarious

[Thorn Harvestar]

It hurts to realize they probably did not intend this... even though it helps solve so much

[Darling Azzy]

Thank you! That made a lot of stuff clear to me. I still claim it's a crap ending when it has to be explained to the masses. This should not be nessesary. Not clever, just obnoxious really.

[Venturisection]

Thats mostly speculation and a lot of your own projection of what you want to believe is true. In reality the ending is a mess they cut loads they messed around and it seems to be very incomplete. What they're planning or what is going to happen next is almost irrelevant. What you seem to say is that indoctrination theory is right and that Shepard is indoctrinated, but that means everyone died and the Galaxy is destroyed regardless of what choice you made you failed. The guy at the end should not be standing there talking to his son as everyone is dead and no one would remember shepard. The Ending is abstract nonsense.

[Etereoooo]

1) If those are not the real endings it mean you never won the war, the reaper are still alive and you have not complete the mission you carry since me1.

2) If those are the real ending, they are bad and full of plot holes.

It's as simple as that.

[Red Son Rising]

not interested in the conversation, just commenting on the situation

cant please all of the plebs all of the time. bw might better stick to whatever theyve been planning because i like how the ME series has developed and want to see more of it

its not bw devs job to retcon ME3 because the endings ruin a bunch of fanfics, a ham fisted ending with a sunny day, blue skies and everyone holding hands would be much worse

tempted search and see how many ppl crying for a new ending were screamin foul when bw [basicaly] did the same thing with arrival. i wont, but i bet theres a ton of overlap

the poll is self selecting, unscientific and panders to a percentage of outspoken individuals that dont represent the overwhelming masses that dont participate.

[The Anti-Saint]

I think they ran out of time and slapped something together as a placeholder. They have SWTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age to deal with + other projects we don't know about; might be stretched thin. This idoc theory is plausible, afterall that is what the reapers do, but one has to wonder its source. Did one of their PR repairman leak it to the interweb as a roundabout form of damage control? /shrug They have shown sloppy work in Dragon Age 2, so I'm not entirely convinced they "planned" to indoctrinate the players.

Oh well, conspiracy theories aside, let's see how this turns out. For now, I'll be content with my 98% game.

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 20 mars 2012 - 05:19 .

[Chuloos]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

[Update 2]  The Absolute Best Video Evidence of Indoctrination Theory

[Update]
Chris Priestly
twitter.com/#!/BioEvilChris/status/179967731070799872
Jessica Merizan
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179808402011193344
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179828285327409152
The official "Mass Effect" twitter from Bioware:
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179680647869243392
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179688066787704832
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179682383304462338
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179681231766695936

[OP Proper]
I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.

I hope to make a complete and easy explanation of the ending, comment if you think I need to adjust or add to it.
This post does not apply to those who just don't like it because of its lack of detailed epilogue.

First of all there is one ending that is the real ending and all other endings are tricks and illusions. In fact the only REAL ending in the whole game is if you pick the destroy option with over 4000 assets. The real ending is only that 20 seconds they show of Shepard in the rubble and then takes a breath.

That (supposed to be) eye opening moment is supposed to tell you that Shepard was never on the Citadel. He lies just where he was knocked out by the destroyer blast, in the rubble of London. This is where the confusion takes place.

Everything that happens after the destroyer hits Shepard during his charge is a combination of a dying Shepard's hallucinations and reaper indoctrination trying to take over. Right after the blast, Shepard wakes with his armor half blown off. This is not just cut scene fubar, this is the start of his indoctrination fight when everything is slightly off, as in a dream (because it is)

If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.

After he reaches the Citadel there is more oddness that should be setting off triggers for the player that something is not right, that this is an illusion... Anderson describes shifting walls and only ever agrees with Shep on his surroundings after Shep describes his and saying "like the collector base you described". Everything is just a projection from Shepard's mind and subconscious.

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

There are more allusions to not trusting Cerberus/reapers throughout the game as well. You really start to see them after you understand the indoctrination ending. For example: TIM talking to Kai Lang says "Shepard was always going to stay true to his ideals" subtlety suggesting that the player should do the same and not let TIM/reapers compromise you destroying the reapers. The goal you have had since the very beginning. Also before the attack on Cerberus base I believe, there is a quantum comm. call between you and Hackett. You have the option of saying something like "what if TIM is right and the reapers CAN be controlled" and Hackett shoots you down. Gives you a direct order to kill TIM and destroy reapers. No questions asked. Once again, game trying to remind you of the one true goal and keep you focused.

Now about the Catalyst and the crucible conversation and decision itself... By this time indoctrination is very close to taking over. The end is near. The catalyst looks like the little boy because of shep's subconscious and indoctrination is feeding off that. Everything in this scene is A LIE. The choices and how they are presented to you are all part of the deception to get Shepard to give his mind into indoctrination and lose the will to fight it.

You are presented first with the destroy option. He says "I KNOW you have been thinking of destroying us but..." The catalyst is scared, knows that its only chance is to manipulate Shepard here and now. It's painted in renegade red to through you off. This is purposefully done to manipulate Shepard's decision to fight. He tells you all synthetic life will be wiped out, including Geth and including Shepard because he is partially cybernetic himself. In sales you always present the worst option first and the best for last. So the next 2 options can then be presented and made more appealable.

the other 2 options do not let you ever see Shepard "alive" at the end so to me BOTH of these options are fails and result in you being indoctrinated and/or dying right there on the streets of London. Without that last breath scene. There can be no happy ending. I will elaborate on them a bit more separately.

Synthesis was in the middle and last option presented, this is what they ultimately want. He even likened the synthesis to husks in his description. The reapers want to harvest organics and change them into hybrids. By choosing synthesis you would be doing their work for them in an instant. Basically I see this as total fail ending, you have been played.

Now the control option was not presented as prominently as the synthesis but was still painted in paragon blue and offered as an option still better then destroy. In the end the result for choosing this is the same behind the scenes. Shepard gave into indoctrination/death and you do not get the breath tidbit.

So if you choose destroy like I believe we are somewhat intended to, remember that the explosion cut scene and relays exploding and Normandy running/crashing ALL OF THAT IS STILL HALLUCINATION. This is Shepard's subconscious imagining a "happy ending" he imagines reapers destroyed, earth fighters celebrating, and he imagines and ending for companions. The lush new planet-scape is just a metaphor for starting over and them being at peace. That's why immediately after they show Shep waking up, to solidify the dream idea.

At that point you are supposed to start thinking about what really happened. Shepard is alive, on Earth, has conquered indoctrination. Another HUGE thing is that after destroying the reapers you were supposed to be dead. Recalling the little boy "you will die as you are partly synthetic". When you wake up after that in the rubble, it should be a clear indication that you have been lied to. You did not die like the boy said you would, he just said that to dissuade you. The rest is left even more ambiguous but...

I personally believe that Shepard's job ended there. His companions who followed him at the last rush are dead beside him not suddenly on the Normandy and suddenly in a new system living happily ever after. That only happens in dreams He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.

Love it or hate it, I whole heartedly believe that we will see DLC in the future that will start with Shepard taking that breath in the rubble. It will be something like Waking up after beating indoctrination and actually concluding the story in a more definitive way. And possibly a lot more "happy" though I'm more interested in "real" then some contrived happiness.



TL;DR (oh come on read above, its good
2 parts, first everything that happens between Shepard getting hit by the destroyer eye blast during the London charge and the "take a breath" scene (that you only get by choosing correct choices and having high enough EMF) Is a hallucination/indoctrination process that Shepard is fighting in his head.


There is only one real ending, the ending you have been groomed for since the beginning. Destroy the reapers at all costs. All other endings that do not have Shepard alive at the end are lies. They are illusions and means that Shepard gave into indoctrination and never awoke back on earth to realize this. And the player doesn't understand.

All the supposed plot holes can be explained by this. See examples above. Ask me questions if you have them, I will try to clarify for you in comments.

Also if you would rather watch 3 minutes of youtube, this is a rather good but not totally complete ending explaination. I approve


FINAL NOTE
I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.

(update) Thread discussing Shep lives ending /rubble scene (with pics and vids)

hex23 wrote...
The problem with that is, Bioware has been tweeting nonstop hinting that we don't have the full picture.
Look at this Chris Priestly tweet from today:
twitter.com/#!/BioEvilChris/status/179967731070799872
Jessica Merizan:
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179808402011193344
twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179828285327409152
The official "Mass Effect" twitter from Bioware:
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179680647869243392
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179681231766695936
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179688066787704832
twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179682383304462338
This has been going on nonstop for the last 2 days. Some might say "oh, this is PR"....but you can't really. PR wouldn't get that specific about us not understanding what we've seen, yet.

Go read this thread from well over a year ago..  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10287481/1  this was not a PR scheme.. it was just  a totally bad decision on their part..

[saeval912]

Bioware has admitted that at one point they planned on having shepard fully indoctrinated, which they ended up scrapping, so that kinda throws the theory out the door.

[The Anti-Saint]

saeval912 wrote...

Bioware has admitted that at one point they planned on having shepard fully indoctrinated, which they ended up scrapping, so that kinda throws the theory out the door.

Well, with the ire that has been raised by the ending, I'd imagine no options are off the table...especially if it allows them to save face and say, "Ah ha! We foold you! It was planned all along"

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 20 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[PsydonZero]

saeval912 wrote...

Bioware has admitted that at one point they planned on having shepard fully indoctrinated, which they ended up scrapping, so that kinda throws the theory out the door.

No. Why is it that everyone seems to completely mis-reference this?

They wanted to create a sequence where the player loses control of Shepard (as in, in the middle of real-time gameplay; the player's control would be interrupted) due to indoctrination, but it proved problematic to manifest while also presenting dialogue trees. I don't see why, since Mass Effect's conversations have always been real-time and there are a few moments in ME3 where the game manuevers Shepard into cover right out of a conversation, but that's besides the point. It was problematic for whatever reason, so they scrapped it.

That doesn't mean they scrapped the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated altogether. To be honest with you, I prefer this more subtle route. Their original idea would have made it way too obvious.

[TheMerchantMan]

HooblaDGN wrote...

At low military strength some people ONLY get the destroy option. They are unable to choose the others. This sort of renders indoctrination theory moot. If the Reapers were trying to indoctrinate you they would not ONLY preent you with the option they're trying to drive you away from.

Linky:

http://m.gamefaqs.co...fect-3/62225565

Or does it reinforce it? 

Why does your EMS have anything to do with what endings you can choose from anyway? Specifically that it doesn't make sense one way or another to the narrative. The crucible is complete either way, it makes it to the citadel, the catalyst doesn't say you can't have the other choices because it's damaged, but that you can't because it won't let you.

With that said, if your EMS is too low it does make sense from the Indoc Theory that they wouldn't give you other choices. Simply put, you're going to die and they don't need you anymore. The Reapers only offer you control and synthesis if you are a threat to them.

The more of a threat you are, the more options they give you.

[kathic]

We see what we want to see. The evidence for indoc or dream theory is all circumstantial. Things that exist within the game are twisted to fit a different theory because fans are disappointed with the ending. It is my belief that Bioware was not influenced by EA to make a bad ending, they did not run out of time or money, there is no secret DLC ending they are waiting to sell. This was the ending they wanted and wrote. It may be very disappointing but so are a lot of endings to other great stories (Battlestar Galatica and LOST come to mind). It does not invalidate everything that came before it. They may change the ending but I would not bet any money on it. This was their vision for how the trilogy would end whether we can accept that or not.

[Tiax Rules All]

saeval912 wrote...


Bioware has admitted that at one point they planned on having shepard fully indoctrinated, which they ended up scrapping, so that kinda throws the theory out the door.

 yeah i read that statement.

at the risk of sounding like a wack job conspiracy freak, (lots already think that)

... does it though?...

im still not convinced.

[General Jack D. Ripper]

I want to believe.

[Tiax Rules All]

I added, deleted and re-worked a few things into the OP.

i still aim to compile a good collection of ID Theory stuff here.


Oh and I want to change the thread title, a little or completely, IDK but im taking suggestions for the name.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 21 mars 2012 - 01:26 .