1594 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

Smiley556 wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

Your input is Very much apreciated. But for arguments sake it would be very much apreciated if you stated Why you dont believe Bioware intended it. 

I'm just finding it strange that people have so little faith in Bioware that they rather believe they made some strange bad ending full of plotholes instead of believing they made an ending which was well written and made sense. Afterall the hallucination theory has allot of evidence supporting it, where the oposite is mostly made up of 'its incosistent cos the writing sucks and the plotholes are there cos bioware cocked up'. I just want to know Why you would prefer to believe the later.

I have a theory that it wasn't what they originally planned - BUT - after the leak and the early complaints about the endings - they adjusted it to what we have.

Wether or not it is the only variation of the ending we'll get is yet to be seen.

But technically, there is what appears to be some work that could be described as lazy in the end. 3 squad mates? Really? How hard would it have been for them to have a shot of all the Normandy crew standing on that hill - there is no dialogue anyway, you literally could just plop them down on the hill and zoom the camera out as per normal.

Of course - as has been stated...a lot of what we see could also be indicative of a rushed ending...but I can't believe thats the case how much they talked the endings up throughout the last few months of marketing.

[Smiley556]

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

I didn't mean to refute that either. What I meant to convey is that there is a delicate balance when taking this approach. The game needed to be odd enough to get us suspicious but real enough to leave doubt - and to balance these two components so that it doesn't destroy the transition from one to the other or the integrity of the game.

What I meant was that Bioware did not balance it correctly, at least judging by how most of the fans seemed to react.

Well if assuming what I said is how Bioware intended it. In which case we have a load of people here who do understand the ending, and a load of people who dont, and here we are debating it. It would seem to me they got this 'balance' spot on.

I like having a back and forth with you Smiley  You seem insightful.

Yes, there seems to be a balance now, but most of those that now adhere to the indoctrination theory (including myself) had to be shown it on the forums. An insightful, intelligent group started to peice it together and many others found the logic of it after they finished the ending. I read through almost 60 pages in the main Indoctrination thread, a good portion of the comments were from people who hadn't seen it at all and were very glad to be presented with the option.

Likewise, I wouldnt be actively responding if I didnt want to debate with someone insightful. Theres a reason I dont like the comments that get thrown around in the way of "yeah but your wrong, its just wishfull thinking, cos I say so" and the like.

As that does seem to be the case, it reminds me of how I got here. The recognised the hallucination for what it is on the first go, before I read the forums. I came to the forums after I heard about the rage. You should try to imagine that anybody else who understood the last sequence of the game on their own without help from the forum doesnt really have much of a reason to come and debate the theory here. As we see with many games when new content comes out, as I recall for example the WoW forums, the forum is filled with complaints, because the people that dont want to complain, dont come to the forum at all.

Being here now I do my best to help clarify it to people. And I too have been pointed out allot of evidence that I didnt notice myself (for example I never considered the kid a hallucination back on earth in the first mission, but that clue here has made me realise that).

Also, people just generally hate being told their wrong, its human nature, so allot of people will oppose the theory and try to debunk it, even if it sounds very logical, just because agreeing would imply they were wrong in the first place.

[kalamity116]

@OP: Good post, and you make your points very well. Personally, I did immediately get the feeling that something was off after Shepard's dash to the beam. BUT...

IF what you are suggesting is what Bioware truly intended players to think, then they could definitely have made it a bit more obvious. Of course, if they had made it clear from the beginning, every player would recognize what's going on--that they're being indoctrinated, and that would defeat the whole purpose of their alleged approach. However, they could and should have made their intent more obvious AFTER the player makes his/her decision.

An epilogue describing the overall fate of the galaxy afterwards, each species and Shepard's companions would also have been very nice. Unfortunately, their absence added even more to the confusion and ambiguity.

[XinRaine]

I'm not trying to be cruel to OP whatsoever, but people who try to pass such things off as fact and claim other people are uneducated for being unable to see it? That's just absolutely ridiculous. You have no proof whatsoever backing your claims, and the best theory right now is that the endings are just absolutely terrible. The chances of you being remotely correct about anything are very, very slim.

Yes, I've seen the videos. Yes, I've heard the theories. And it's honestly starting to sound like conspiracy theories at this point. The endings just suck, period. There is nothing else to say.

[Tiax Rules All]

MrPuschel wrote...


There's still the cg after the whole thing happened with all-cyborg- leafs and cyborg-joker on that planet. Theory doesnt makes sense because this "hallucination" still exists after shepards dead and even the hardest prophet of the indoctrination theory will not say that some kind of super-hallucination-beam travels trough the galaxy and turns everyone into an indoctrinated retard who beliefes he's a cyborg now.

that scene is shepards dying thoughts of how he imagines his companions will end up. a hipply ever after sunrise vista with smiling faces..

then (if you choose correctly) it goes straight into he wakes up in rubble on earth. They basically tell you right there. its a dream. dont make them dumb it down for the masses. as it stands its deep and mysterious

[Chaife]

Aduro wrote...

charmedmeat wrote...

Please explain why they would knowingly upset their entire fanbase and risk a huge backlash and future sales? Oh that's right they wouldn't. This is why the hallucination theory is bunk, because they would have to realize they'd be facing exactly what they are without making it blatantly obvious (e.g. a cutscene at the end showing Shepard on Earth hallucinating).

Smiley addressed this before. If done correctly, Bioware comes off as the greatest story-tellers in the gaming industry. It can be perceived as an attempt at meta-story telling. The risk is mishandling it, and it is a rather delicate state. Then again, Bioware may have incorrectly predicted what would become of such a stunt, and we thus have our current predicament .

If this is the case and they release the ending as DLC what about the people who play offline? And do not have an internet connection? That means there are some people who bought the game without the actual ending...

[Aurica]

Esquin wrote...

No. You're wrong.

I get it. I just wanted some kind of closure. You're ignoring the issue. We just wanted to know what happened to our galaxy after we made our decision. Thats all.

I think BW knows that this is what we want.  But instead of giving us the conclusion.  I get the feeling that they might want to sell us that conlusion as an opening or the theme for the next MASS EFFECT game.  

[jahaa]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

yes Aduro i fully believe they will be adding post ending DLC in the future. I'm not endorsing it. or saying its ok, just that it seems to be the idea Bioware has.

I hope they do. But not because i hate the endings (i picked the 'destroy' option with 7000 ems). I'm fine with your theory, but destroying the mass relays was a really bad idea.

I hope the mass relays are fine and all the scenes after detroying the reapers are a dream.
My Shep is alive and ready for more challenges. Maybe i'm angry because i realized that Mass Effect is over.

Ok then, if this is over dont count on me for new stuff, dlc's, expansion packs or whatever.
Hell im really angry because there wont be another wonderful conversation/scene with Liara. There wont be more renegade interrupts.

This is over.

[piemanz]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Just out of intrest, do you still get the stargazer and legend status if you choose the Sythesis ending?

yes but remember synthesis never happens, Shep imagines it but really he loses his battle to indoctrination and never "wakes up" at end.

so in a black and white way, control and synthesis are the same. you comprimise with reapers.. you get indoctrinated. ONLY sticking to the 3 game running morals of destroying them do you get to conquer indoctrination and live.

It just makes no sense, that they would indoctrinate Shep and even give him/her an option to destroy them. It seems kind os stupid, surely withholding that infomation would have been the better option for them.

And i don't see why, no matter what ending you chose, you get elevated to legendary status even though two options are clearly 'bad' endings according to this theory.

[Lugaidster]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Not that your analysis isn't very well thought out and perceptive; I just don't believe Bioware intended for it at all.

This i get alot and mainly its becasue it just seems too risky and out of the box to try. so the real denial is not me making up endings for myself but NOT seeing this ending for what it really is.

I think its crazy ambitious and ballsy as hell but I do believe it was inteded to be a deep ending that made you question yourself and what you saw thouroguhly

Agreed. My only issue with the indoctrination theory is that while beautiful in itself, if there's no continuation then I still didn't get closure. I'm hoping as much as the next guy that BW purposely withheld the real end and they're just waiting for something to get it in the open, but it seems way too risky for me to believe.

To be honest, I think they could've achieved the same effect by allowing the end to be only unlockable after a second playthrough, which would give credence to the "secret" ending theory out there. The thing is that I still haven't seen anyone post anything about it and I can't gather enough strength to actually go through ME3 again to test for my self. Besides, since the game has already been datamined, and no new info has been found, I just don't think there's one. 

The DLC is a really cool idea, but I don't know... It seems way too risky. If I were proved wrong, I would be the happiest one around though...

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 11:59 .

[Dr_Hello]

@OP,

A question for you: in the extra cutscene where Shepard wakes up, why is he/she in the generic N7 armor and not the player's custom suit?

[Aduro]

Smiley556 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

If they skipped the whole sequence and just batently gave you the option to either be indoctrinated or not, would Anybody pick indoctrination? No ofcourse not. Ofcourse its confusing and hard to comprehend, thats the whole idea about the indoctrination. If they made it obvious he was being indoctrinated people wouldnt have a hard time picking the destroy option. Instead the writers did an AWSOME job actually making people doubt themselves the same way shepard does at the ending.

I didn't mean to refute that either. What I meant to convey is that there is a delicate balance when taking this approach. The game needed to be odd enough to get us suspicious but real enough to leave doubt - and to balance these two components so that it doesn't destroy the transition from one to the other or the integrity of the game.

What I meant was that Bioware did not balance it correctly, at least judging by how most of the fans seemed to react.

Well if assuming what I said is how Bioware intended it. In which case we have a load of people here who do understand the ending, and a load of people who dont, and here we are debating it. It would seem to me they got this 'balance' spot on.

I like having a back and forth with you Smiley  You seem insightful.

Yes, there seems to be a balance now, but most of those that now adhere to the indoctrination theory (including myself) had to be shown it on the forums. An insightful, intelligent group started to peice it together and many others found the logic of it after they finished the ending. I read through almost 60 pages in the main Indoctrination thread, a good portion of the comments were from people who hadn't seen it at all and were very glad to be presented with the option.

Likewise, I wouldnt be actively responding if I didnt want to debate with someone insightful. Theres a reason I dont like the comments that get thrown around in the way of "yeah but your wrong, its just wishfull thinking, cos I say so" and the like.

As that does seem to be the case, it reminds me of how I got here. The recognised the hallucination for what it is on the first go, before I read the forums. I came to the forums after I heard about the rage. You should try to imagine that anybody else who understood the last sequence of the game on their own without help from the forum doesnt really have much of a reason to come and debate the theory here. As we see with many games when new content comes out, as I recall for example the WoW forums, the forum is filled with complaints, because the people that dont want to complain, dont come to the forum at all.

Being here now I do my best to help clarify it to people. And I too have been pointed out allot of evidence that I didnt notice myself (for example I never considered the kid a hallucination back on earth in the first mission, but that clue here has made me realise that).

Also, people just generally hate being told their wrong, its human nature, so allot of people will oppose the theory and try to debunk it, even if it sounds very logical, just because agreeing would imply they were wrong in the first place.

Hmm, but doesn't that leave this discussion (on the divide of the audience understanding the ending) at an impasse? We can't neccesarily take the sample of people who didn't come to the forum and say they all figured out the indoctrination theory. You do have a point about how skewed the raging masses make the Bioware forum. Hmm, oh well. I'm tired, I'll lurk a bit more then go to sleep. Nice to meet'cha smiley

[zarnk567]

Not gonna lie OP you are coming off as very condescending in every post you make.....

[Chaife]

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP,

A question for you: in the extra cutscene where Shepard wakes up, why is he/she in the generic N7 armor and not the player's custom suit?

id say they just bugged that up, its like in some cutscenes your carring a gun you never use...

[Lugaidster]

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Just out of intrest, do you still get the stargazer and legend status if you choose the Sythesis ending?

yes but remember synthesis never happens, Shep imagines it but really he loses his battle to indoctrination and never "wakes up" at end.

so in a black and white way, control and synthesis are the same. you comprimise with reapers.. you get indoctrinated. ONLY sticking to the 3 game running morals of destroying them do you get to conquer indoctrination and live.

It just makes no sense, that they would indoctrinate Shep and even give him/her an option to destroy them. It seems kind os stupid, surely withholding that infomation would have been the better option for them.

And i don't see why, no matter what ending you chose, you get elevated to legendary status even though two options are clearly 'bad' endings according to this theory.

The options are symbols, not something actually happening. That means that Shepard hasn't activated the Crucible yet. Besides, indoctrination is very similar to inception if you know what I mean. The guy has to willfully fall for indoctrination. That's why it's so convincing. It's not telekinesis (a la TIM). That's why Saren actually could shoot himself. An indoctrinated individual believes to the core that he's right. If indoctrination was more superfluous and more similar to telekinesis then Saren would have never been able to shoot himself.

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[Smiley556]

Chaife wrote...

Aduro wrote...

charmedmeat wrote...

Please explain why they would knowingly upset their entire fanbase and risk a huge backlash and future sales? Oh that's right they wouldn't. This is why the hallucination theory is bunk, because they would have to realize they'd be facing exactly what they are without making it blatantly obvious (e.g. a cutscene at the end showing Shepard on Earth hallucinating).

Smiley addressed this before. If done correctly, Bioware comes off as the greatest story-tellers in the gaming industry. It can be perceived as an attempt at meta-story telling. The risk is mishandling it, and it is a rather delicate state. Then again, Bioware may have incorrectly predicted what would become of such a stunt, and we thus have our current predicament .

If this is the case and they release the ending as DLC what about the people who play offline? And do not have an internet connection? That means there are some people who bought the game without the actual ending...

The game clearly states that it requires an internet connection. People who play it offline arent considered. (Sounds harsh but yeah, welcome to the new age of DLC).

[sorentoft]

zarnk567 wrote...

Not gonna lie OP you are coming off as very condescending in every post you make.....

I must agree. I do not like the tone of taking this theory (for that is what it is) as fact. It is outright foolish. <_<

[Tiax Rules All]

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

piemanz wrote...

If this is true, then why is my shepard a 'legend' for choosing the wrong option?

 
he is already a legend for assembling the galactic fleet that ultimately beats the reapers.
that shepard dies heroicly during the charge on the beam in London. His story was passed on by all who knew of him

But according to this theory, my shep did everything wrong. She didn't survive and chose the control option. And still got the ending with the stargazers some 200 years in the future, which would have been impossible had the Reapers won, which would have been the case if your theory is correct.

I also still got the message congratulating me on becoming a legend.

Just out of intrest, do you still get the stargazer and legend status if you choose the Sythesis ending?

yes but remember synthesis never happens, Shep imagines it but really he loses his battle to indoctrination and never "wakes up" at end.

so in a black and white way, control and synthesis are the same. you comprimise with reapers.. you get indoctrinated. ONLY sticking to the 3 game running morals of destroying them do you get to conquer indoctrination and live.

It just makes no sense, that they would indoctrinate Shep and even give him/her an option to destroy them. It seems kind os stupid, surely withholding that infomation would have been the better option for them.

And i don't see why, no matter what ending you chose, you get elevated to legendary status even though two options are clearly 'bad' endings according to this theory.

sorry but you are still not getting the point.

Shepard is never on the citadel on ANY ending. ALL if it is in his head. He is in actuallity in a rubble pile in london.
the destroy option doesnt "destroy" anything.

its a metaphor for breaking the indoctrination, he imagines the epilogue earth and relays and normady crash on happy land as the ending. but its just him dying alone/and we see this only after he wakes up at the end. where you and shep (cause your supposed to be the same mind) both realise its all a dream and shep draws breath and "turns away from the light"

[Shunt Mcblunt]

Also to those that do not read the ME3 Save post, this could only be the end of Shepard story. What if there is Free DLC or even a ME4.

[LeTtotheC]

No offence but the fact you're having to explain this all out is indicative of how poorly written the ending is, especially if you have to fill in the details for us. I consider myself a competent reader, and whilst an ambiguous ending is fine, it has to make itself know that there's ambiguity and not just play out as if it's happening for real - just a few seconds of indication that it's indoctrination and not Shepherd's final attempts to end the war. Radio chatter doesn't cut it, and won't cut it for most people. Especially when for all intents and purposes no one had made it to the beam by that point. - the radio chatter happens BEFORE Shephard makes it in.

I love the thought you put into the ending, I really do. I just don't buy it as being the intent of the writers.

[Smiley556]

Aduro wrote...


Hmm, but doesn't that leave this discussion (on the divide of the audience understanding the ending) at an impasse? We can't neccesarily take the sample of people who didn't come to the forum and say they all figured out the indoctrination theory. You do have a point about how skewed the raging masses make the Bioware forum. Hmm, oh well. I'm tired, I'll lurk a bit more then go to sleep. Nice to meet'cha smiley

Yes I suppose it is hard to determine how many people understand it and how many dont, its impossible to make a statement about it. Regardless there is a certain form of balance now that much is true. Good night ^^

[Sc2mashimaro]

IF what you are saying is correct, then Bioware is pulling a truly ballsy and brilliant ARG on fans. Hopefully they won't make us pay more to see the end of something we already thought we were paying to see the end of, but I won't lie, I will pay to see the end if the indoctrination theories are correct. And, yes, there is in-game stuff that seems to support the theory in some ways. However, there is also the meta-data outside the game that suggests it is possible that indoctrination theory is wrong.

First of all, that ME3 has been billed as the end of the series and, thus, it would seem logical to assume that the end of the story comes as the end of the game. I have to admit, during the play-through of the end of the game I thought it might be an indoctrination dream, BUT because the game rolled the credits right after the weird jungle-landing cut-scene (I was just under 4k EMS) we are left to assume that it is actually the end of the story. That is a huge let-down.

I think it's fair to be skeptical of indoctrination theories, because I don't want to get my hopes up. I really hope you guys are right and that this is all a brilliant ploy by Bioware to mess with our heads. But I was already disappointed by the end once and I have no intention of getting my hopes up over a theory that Bioware has said nothing or done nothing to confirm. I have seen no strong evidence that they're running an ARG (which they would be if indoctrination theorists are right), but they haven't come out with a statement about the end of the game yet either. So, we'll just wait and see.

[Smiley556]

zarnk567 wrote...

Not gonna lie OP you are coming off as very condescending in every post you make.....

People dont like being told they are wrong, its human nature, and very understandable.

[-Merk-]

No offense to the OP, but I just wanted to say this.

If the ending of any big budget movie, game, or novel has to be explained to the average consumer, then it's badly written.

This game was not an artistic game, or a game designed to target a niche market. Mass Effect 3 was a big budget game designed to appeal to a wide audience. You don't do "deep thoughts" and "artistic endings" with mass market media. That's the fastest way to lose your mass market.

[ele25]

What Bioware did was give was a chocolate bar wrapper. We are so excited that we got chocolate then we open it and there is nothing. We are now heart broke with a poor job of writing. It's like they try to be these creative tricky writers that everyone wants to be. Yet the stunk horrible at it. Leaving to much to be unknown.