183 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

That is a fine question but people are taking their inch and trying to stretch it for a mile. BW has always controlled the story and Shepard. They created and breathed life into the character and franchise. It is their right to end things how they want. Gamers do not have a right to write the games and make character changes. If BW caves it will be a blow against any artistic integrity of any media producing company ever. You cannot let the people dictate changes to an already finished IP. Do you get to write your own endings to movies or Tv shows or even change the characters given? Nope. You can have an opinion on disliking the endings and that's fine , but to demand changes and holler and kick a tantrum to get your way is not very mature or sensible. Does BW dictate how you do things in your daily life do they tell you how to do your job at work? No way. You have no right to dictate theirs.

I cannot understand the hate people going it was great until the final ten minutes so this game is trash? So your last bite of lasagna wasn't as piping hot and maybe a little watery from sitting does that make the meal less satisfying? Are you going to never touch lasagne again? Of course not. People are going wild with drama and entitlement mentality. They delivered on most accounts a very fine game which is the job we expect companies to do.

Your job is to buy it or not period. If you don't like it fine as all products have the caveat they aren't for everyone. They owe you nothing and they could have ended the series at ME2 if they wanted. Do you want to be so demanding a fan base BW would gladly ditch you? I think it has reached that point. I would not blame them if they turned a deaf ear to fan demands now. They listened and gave things all these years yet that only increased your appetite for more and bolder demands. You are not armchair game designers no matter how much you want to be. Your job is product consumer period. If you don't play the game again that is your loss from self-inflicted wounds.


Fair game is bugs and poor quality of things like graphics , and gameplay and even story critique. Demanding an ending patch is so over the top spoiled-rotten territory. It is fine to give feedback and likes and dislikes but keep a proper perspective. You are demanding what you want and do not care what BW the actual owner/creator desires. That is egotistical by any measure.


I personally would have preferred some other possible endings being available, but I will be cool with their decision to end their franchise , character, and IP how they choose. I intend to buy it when I have the means to do so. The author has all the rights of creation and that is the natural order of things. Yes I have read in detail the endings so I know what is in store for my playthroughs. Still doesn't dent my desire to play ME 3 in the least.


I empathize not liking something, but once you make your distaste known then that should be the end of it. I've played many good games with bad endings, but I put it in perspective that is a small part of the game. If I enjoyed it up until then then it was a great game and if it had replayability then I would play it again. You have to ask the opposite if you got the ending you wanted and the rest of the game was bad would that elevate the game to game of the year? Ummm no obviously. So fan demands are based on the premise that over inflates the importance of the ending. You didn't get what you wanted so deal with it like any other disappointment that you have no control over. Move on and let the anger and hate go. You only punish yourself for harboring such negative emotions beyond a reasonable time.


ME 3 was a product of many hours of work by many dedicated people and we shouldn't lose sight of that. They are fellow humans with feelings like anyone and to see people trash their hard work because you didn't get what you wanted is a head hanging moment. They should be proud of their work. Have you been praising what you liked or spending more time trashing the small part of the game you didn't?

[The Razman]

You're absolutely right.

The entitlement comes from wanting to have a "good" ending choice. When people say they don't want to play the Mass Effect games anymore, it's because they know everything they do won't change the depressingness of the ending. That's the same with everything that has a truly emotional, depressing ending ... I remember not wanting to watch Blackadder Goes Forth for ages because the final moments of the last episode were so sad, it coloured the rest of the experience, knowing what was waiting for them at the end.

I'm proud of Bioware for doing something so bold. I don't want them to change it just because some people feel entitled to have a "good" ending, with all the loose ends tied up.

[AJRimmsey]

game buyers are entitled to whatever they pay for.

if they buy a game they are entitled to a game
if they dont like the game then they are then entitled to ebay it.

iff however they think they are entitled to then demand the games changed to cater for them they are simply dilusional

they are also entitled to create thier own game catered to thier own tastes.
but good luck selling it.
as they will fast find they are a very small minority facing others demanding they change that game to the others demands.

[Planeforger]

The Razman wrote...

The entitlement comes from wanting to have a "good" ending choice. When people say they don't want to play the Mass Effect games anymore, it's because they know everything they do won't change the depressingness of the ending.

Without getting into spoilers (or...okay, extremely vague and mild spoilers), that isn't why people are upset.
People are upset because nothing was conclusive in the end, and nothing they did during the trilogy really mattered; the last ten minutes was just an immensely unsatisfying, plot-hole filled deus ex machina.

It's not so much that they didn't get the ending that they wanted - it's more that the ending came out of nowhere, totally jumped the shark, and raised more questions than it answered.

Anyway, back on topic, I sort of agree.
The ending is the ending Bioware intended; they weren't going to launch the game unless they were satisfied with the final product, and people aren't entitled to get anything beyond that. Bioware really shouldn't go back and just write a fan-fictiony ending, no matter how unlikable the current ending might be, because...well, that's what they wanted to write.

Modifié par Planeforger, 13 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[javierabegazo]

I think the most important thing they're entitled is the same thing every consumer should be entitled to, honest advertising. I think that video game developers should have the integrity to attempt to correct their mistakes when they're found, not wait until a large enough ruckus is made.

Throwing in easter eggs isn't enough to maintain respectability I don't think.

[GODzilla]

I don't think gamers are entitled to more as, say, cinema visitors.

Both had the opportunity to hear critics review the medium before they bought the ticket / the game, but in the end it is their own decision to watch / play it. I for instance went into the latest "Underworld" movie despite knowing it got mediocre reviews. But I loved the series so far and as a fan I watched it. And it was fun.

And as with games, experiencing a movie with a high or "hyped" anticipation can lead to severe disappointment.

Ask yourself: Are the producers of movies not trying to persuade you to watch the movie via trailers? And are these trailers not made in a way to show the best scenes of that movie, often underlined with fitting music (that may not even be part of the actual movie at all)? Of course they do. It's called advertising. And advertising is not inherently the same as "telling the truth".

So this whole nonsense about "Bioware lied & needs to apologize" is way over the top in my opinion.

Modifié par GODzilla_GSPB, 13 mars 2012 - 01:48 .

[AnttiV]

I'll write a quick reply before all the points disappear from my head, but I'll probably come back to this at some point.

But.

1) Are we entitled to demand something from a piece of artistic work?
Well, not, as such. HOWEVER! Please note that there are multiple reviews and tweets and posts by people responsible for what Mass Effect 3 ultimately is that reported (wildly) different things pre-release. We, the fans and customers, based our decision to buy the product on the information that was released to us before we got to see what the product really was. It clearly isn't what the reviews and reports make it out to be. I'm not able to right now scourge the web for all the links, but if you search this forum and ME's FB page, there are countless of examples of these.

2) Why the end sours the whole experience.
Think about you lasagne. It was delicious up until the end, yes. But at the last bit you notice that the lasagne contained an ingredient that you are allergic to. You get sick and start to regret ever eating the food. While it was undoubtedly good, the final piece sours the experience and makes the whole thing less than what you expected. For example, if you thought you were eating lactose-free lasagne the whole time, and when you're eating the last bit somebody runs in and tells you not only was it not lactose-free, they even ADDED more of that in.

3) Is it right for consumers to demand correction to products they have bought?
In general, yes. But that usually concerns only physical products that are not "art" or somesuch. Like you are fully entitled to exchange a product that is inherently broken. (like a Monitor with dead pixels, for example.)

It becomes a bit trickier when art and writing enter the fray. Are you entitled to demand a change to some book's ending because you didn't like it? No. You have the right to *ask* for it, but no rights to *demand* it. But, it becomes even more trickier when a series is concerned. You, as a fan and customer have some expectations of what you're buying into. Let's say you buy a Sherlock Holmes novel. You can quite well expect what is in it. If, at the last moment when the bad guy should be punished, Darth Vader comes in, shoots Sherlock in the face and says it was all a dream. I bet returning fans of mr. Holmes would be FURIOUS. They're buying into a series that entitle certain expectations, more so if reviews/reports of said product have surfaced before and the CREATORS of said product have promised certain things.

If those things are NOT in the product.. well, in my opinion the fans, in that case, ARE actually entitled to demand a change. If it was ANY physical product, it would be called false advertising and the company should go into court.

Note: I'm not saying ME3 as such an extreme, or that BioWare should go into court for what ME3 is. Not in the slightest.

[AnttiV]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

I don't think gamers are entitled to more as, say, cinema visitors.

Both had the opportunity to hear critics review the medium before they bought the ticket / the game, but in the end it is their own decision to watch / play it..

That's actually a big part of the outrage here. There are multiple reports and interviews with the people responsible for ME3 telling about things that are clearly NOT in the final product.

What if you go into the cinema, say, to watch "Return of the Jedi" (I hope you've seen it, otherwise my explanation kinda sucks). You've read reports pre-release that the ending is spectacular and the story will have a definitive conclusion, Darth Vader and Luke have an epic fight and even the Emperor takes part in it.

Then you go see said movie. At the very end, where luke grabs the lightsaber from the Emperor's chair, the scene changes and a hologram of an evok walks in, explains that at the very start of a New Hope, when luke comes out of his uncle's house he actually went into coma and everything that happened was a dream. Then he shoots you in the face and the movie ends.

You think you'd be happy, then?

[Blayzereborn]

We're entitled to a story that doesn't blatantly contradict itself.

[Farbautisonn]

We are entitled to what a producer of a product promises us. Nothing more and nothing less. And we can then choose to try to enter a dialgoue with the producer if we feel the product does not live up to our expectations. If the producer disagrees with us, we have a choise to stop buying the product. If the producer agrees with us, it would be natural to assume that changes would be made or perhaps even some reimbursement be set forth. If the producer ignores us, then we have little choise but to ignore him back.

[AnttiV]

Farbautisonn wrote...

We are entitled to what a producer of a product promises us. Nothing more and nothing less. ....

Well, exactly. But what if the producer of said content promises things and those things do NOT end up in the final product (as is the case with ME3). I think we then DO actually have some say about it. Definitely NOT enough to demand anything for free, or even for them to remake half of the product. But I say we have enough say to actually demand that the promised features be added to the product, even if we have to pay a small price for it. (I'm okay with this, because we NEVER agreed to a price, they could say the final product is worth $100 and the $40-$90 people have paid is only part of the price. That would be dumb beyond measure, but that is really in their power.)

[AnttiV]

It's called advertising. And advertising is not inherently the same as "telling the truth".

Not, per se. But in many countries, mine included, Using lies in advertising is illegal. And telling that "feature A" will be included in "product X" while in the end it isn't can be considered a lie.

[Moondoggie]

AnttiV wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

We are entitled to what a producer of a product promises us. Nothing more and nothing less. ....

Well, exactly. But what if the producer of said content promises things and those things do NOT end up in the final product (as is the case with ME3). I think we then DO actually have some say about it. Definitely NOT enough to demand anything for free, or even for them to remake half of the product. But I say we have enough say to actually demand that the promised features be added to the product, even if we have to pay a small price for it. (I'm okay with this, because we NEVER agreed to a price, they could say the final product is worth $100 and the $40-$90 people have paid is only part of the price. That would be dumb beyond measure, but that is really in their power.)

All features are subject to change during the creative process. They never once said "I promise and give my word that these exact features with zero changes to them will be in the game"

[kbct]

We're entitled to nothing. BioWare doesn't have to do a single thing for us.

However, there is nothing wrong with people expressing their dissatisfaction and trying to affect change.

[Moondoggie]

AnttiV wrote...

It's called advertising. And advertising is not inherently the same as "telling the truth".

Not, per se. But in many countries, mine included, Using lies in advertising is illegal. And telling that "feature A" will be included in "product X" while in the end it isn't can be considered a lie.

Adverts for washing powder also say that they are voted the best. But there is never any proof of that and often they are not the best at all. People lie in advertisements all the time to make their products sound better. There are some restrictions but there are lot's of ways around it.

And there is a difference between saying a feature will be included and promising it. All features are subject to change. It's like if a picture of a TV in a store is red and the product is black because it was changed during the production process that does not mean they lied to you. They just decided black was better and changed it since the advert was made.

[Farbautisonn]

Moondoggie wrote...
All features are subject to change during the creative process. They never once said "I promise and give my word that these exact features with zero changes to them will be in the game"

-Actually they did. On multple occasions they stated that all of the loose ends would be tied up and that we would be "satisfied" with the endings. Now I know that "satisfaction" is highly subjective, but its not satisfactory enough when 89% plus of people polled are dissatisfied.

[Moondoggie]

kbct wrote...

We're entitled to nothing. BioWare doesn't have to do a single thing for us.

However, there is nothing wrong with people expressing their dissatisfaction and trying to affect change.

Expressing criticism is fine but threatening to bombard EA with spam and trolling internet forums  to demand they get their own way is something that they are not entitled to do.

Some people have lost all touch withy reality and think that buying a game means they own it and they get a say in it's creative direction.

[Agorme]

Tbh even if it is those endings , at least let it make sense...

[kbct]

Moondoggie wrote...

kbct wrote...

We're entitled to nothing. BioWare doesn't have to do a single thing for us.

However, there is nothing wrong with people expressing their dissatisfaction and trying to affect change.

Expressing criticism is fine but threatening to bombard EA with spam and trolling internet forums  to demand they get their own way is something that they are not entitled to do.

Some people have lost all touch withy reality and think that buying a game means they own it and they get a say in it's creative direction.

I've read a ton of posts over the past week and I haven't seen anyone threaten to bombard EA with spam. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying it's a rare occurance if it did. Again, I've found the people that are "demanding" something are in the minority. Most are "requesting" something.

Most people here HAVE NOT lost touch with reality. Most people are simply dissatisfied with the ending and want to let BioWare know about it.

[Moondoggie]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...
All features are subject to change during the creative process. They never once said "I promise and give my word that these exact features with zero changes to them will be in the game"

-Actually they did. On multple occasions they stated that all of the loose ends would be tied up and that we would be "satisfied" with the endings. Now I know that "satisfaction" is highly subjective, but its not satisfactory enough when 89% plus of people polled are dissatisfied.

The polls are not a fair test. You can vote multiple times for a start. Plus the main people who will look at the poll are the scary nutcase crowd who think they  can force game developers to change games to their liking.

And yes it's subjective what they want is something i find stupid personally. And others will feel the same way. That's the funny thing about entertainment not everyone will like the ending i saw several films at the cinema i felt let down by. But i didn't go crazy and start spamming the internet with polls and angry posts and threatening the film producers until they change the film to my liking.

I get that some people feel crapped on in life and that they have no say and they desperately want some attention and some headlines in the media to boost their tiny ego but people need to get real.

As for what they said did they hand on heart swear that everyone would be happy with it and that they'd tie up loose ends to everyones satisfaction including all your dating sim relationships with whatever LI you have?

Did they promise it would be a happy sunshine ending where you get to save the world and get the girl and live happily ever aftter as the hero of ferel...I mean the galaxy?

[Moondoggie]

kbct wrote...

I've read a ton of posts over the past week and I haven't seen anyone threaten to bombard EA with spam. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying it's a rare occurance if it did. Again, I've found the people that are "demanding" something are in the minority. Most are "requesting" something.

Most people here HAVE NOT lost touch with reality. Most people are simply dissatisfied with the ending and want to let BioWare know about it.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9854872

So what do you call this? "non existant"?

The sad thing is all they do is create hassle for some poor receptionist that had nothing to do with what they are so angry about.

Modifié par Moondoggie, 13 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[kbct]

Moondoggie wrote...

kbct wrote...

I've read a ton of posts over the past week and I haven't seen anyone threaten to bombard EA with spam. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying it's a rare occurance if it did. Again, I've found the people that are "demanding" something are in the minority. Most are "requesting" something.

Most people here HAVE NOT lost touch with reality. Most people are simply dissatisfied with the ending and want to let BioWare know about it.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9854872

So what do you call this? "non existant"?

The sad thing is all they do is create hassle for some poor receptionist that had nothing to do with what they are so angry about.

I said minority. I didn't say it was non existant. Stop going to extremes to make your point.

Besides, how many different people posted in that thread in support of it? If you read the first post, it says to be respectful. I can respect that.

[Moondoggie]

The saddest thing i think is the amount of resources dedicated to this nonsense. They could use this collective to fight for a worthy cause like all the real problems in the world but instead all that matters in their tiny self centered universe is "I didn't like the ending to my game! CHANGE IT!"

[Moondoggie]

kbct wrote...

I said minority. I didn't say it was non existant. Stop going to extremes to make your point.

Besides, how many different people posted in that thread in support of it? If you read the first post, it says to be respectful. I can respect that.

I'm not sure how bombarding a company with calls and emails is being respectfull. That's like telling suicide bombers to go kill people to get their groups own way but "be respectful"

How is showing you that what i said was true "going to extreames?"