183 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctoglethorpe]

We are entitled to disappointment, sadness, and the ability to vent it in public forums. Thats what.

Are we literally entitled to demand they change the game? No. Would it be smart for them to do it anyways? Yes.

Also, some of you still have this whole thign wrong. Most people are not demanded a "good" ending as in fairy tale happily ever after blah blah blah (although it sure would of been nice). All most of us wanted was an ending that reflected our choices the entire series has been built around and closure to the relationships we forged throughout our journey, not cheap ambiguity and a single concrete nonsensical ending that has nothing to do with a single choice you made throughout the series.

[LeonardoLuiz]

If they only listen to money, like everyone bashing and saying that "Gamers thinks that they own the game"

Okay, no more Bioware games for me.
i think that DA:O had better sales than DA 2.

If history repeats itself the same could happens with ME3.
Actually, remember how developers think that their nemesis is the "used copies?"
Selling your copy is actually one way to make your point. since they will get no money from it.

[AnttiV]

Moondoggie wrote...
Adverts for washing powder also say that they are voted the best. But there is never any proof of that and often they are not the best at all. People lie in advertisements all the time to make their products sound better. There are some restrictions but there are lot's of ways around it.

And there is a difference between saying a feature will be included and promising it. All features are subject to change. It's like if a picture of a TV in a store is red and the product is black because it was changed during the production process that does not mean they lied to you. They just decided black was better and changed it since the advert was made.

Actually, that WOULD be a basis for false advertising, at least in this country. If I buy a red TV and they deliver me a black one, it is perfectly in my rights to demand they change it for a red one. Also, in this country at least, they CAN NOT use "voted the best" without including directions to said poll/whatever it was. You can not asspull facts in advertising in this country at least. If you order, based on available information, product X with features A, B and C and it comes with features A, B and D you are perfectly within your rights to either demand your money back (secondary choice) or demand a product with features A, B and C (primary choice). Yes, it includes the color of the TV set or any arbitary feature that is not the primary function of the product.

I've actually been working for a company that was in the receiving end of such a complaint about the PACKAGING of the product. Yes, really. The product was advertised to come in a certain package and while the product was 100% as advertised, the package wasn't. The customer won the complaint and got his money back (because there was no way we could provide him the package as advertised, because it didn't exist).

[kbct]

Moondoggie wrote...

kbct wrote...

I said minority. I didn't say it was non existant. Stop going to extremes to make your point.

Besides, how many different people posted in that thread in support of it? If you read the first post, it says to be respectful. I can respect that.

I'm not sure how bombarding a company with calls and emails is being respectfull. That's like telling suicide bombers to go kill people to get their groups own way but "be respectful"

How is showing you that what i said was true "going to extreames?"

You're going to extremes because only 1% of the posters here agreed to write EA. You should talk about the majority of posters.

[Farbautisonn]

Moondoggie wrote...

The polls are not a fair test. You can vote multiple times for a start. Plus the main people who will look at the poll are the scary nutcase crowd who think they  can force game developers to change games to their liking.

-Define "fair". I have been able to vote multiple times aswell but only the first time did it count. Plus great job at steriotyping, hyperbole and overgeneralisations. You are little better than the very people you profess to be in opposition of. Second the only option a consumer has is to find another product, start a dialogue with the producer, or lobby against it.

And yes it's subjective what they want is something i find stupid personally. And others will feel the same way. That's the funny thing about entertainment not everyone will like the ending i saw several films at the cinema i felt let down by. But i didn't go crazy and start spamming the internet with polls and angry posts and threatening the film producers until they change the film to my liking.

-What you find "stupid" is both your subjective opinion and judgemental as well as arrogant. That others feel the same way is grand but since you do not allow others to feel differently you come across as a hypocrite. If a film does not deliver, you do not go see sequals and you tell your friends that it sucked. Thats what most are doing.

I get that some people feel crapped on in life and that they have no say and they desperately want some attention and some headlines in the media to boost their tiny ego but people need to get real.

-Again with the implied ad hominems and overgeneralisations. Thats is not very promoting for your cause nor for your logic. We are lobbying for dialogue and compromise. Not for individually tailored endings that cater specifically to our individual needs and wants.

As for what they said did they hand on heart swear that everyone would be happy with it and that they'd tie up loose ends to everyones satisfaction including all your dating sim relationships with whatever LI you have?

-They said the fans would leave satisfied and that all loose ends would be tied up. That clearly did not happen. That they didnt swear on the bible or Qu'ran is insignificant. If we cannot take the word of a lead or dev seriously, we have no reason to take the gaming studio seriously. If we do not take them seriously we do not buy their products. End of story.

Did they promise it would be a happy sunshine ending where you get to save the world and get the girl and live happily ever aftter as the hero of ferel...I mean the galaxy?

-Nope but they did promised satisfaction and that they would tie up loose ends. No matter how much you try to escape that fact, it stands. I think we can asssume that we should expect that the game holds true to its own ingame setting lore and logic. Infact we are presented with endings and characters that make little sense, that has pideonholes us into a few nonsensical actions, and plotholes the size of a solar system. If that satisfies you, then grats. It does not satisfy me. And I am voicing my opinion as to why that is not so.

[kbct]

Moondoggie wrote...

The polls are not a fair test. You can vote multiple times for a start. Plus the main people who will look at the poll are the scary nutcase crowd who think they  can force game developers to change games to their liking.

And yes it's subjective what they want is something i find stupid personally. And others will feel the same way. That's the funny thing about entertainment not everyone will like the ending i saw several films at the cinema i felt let down by. But i didn't go crazy and start spamming the internet with polls and angry posts and threatening the film producers until they change the film to my liking.

I get that some people feel crapped on in life and that they have no say and they desperately want some attention and some headlines in the media to boost their tiny ego but people need to get real.

As for what they said did they hand on heart swear that everyone would be happy with it and that they'd tie up loose ends to everyones satisfaction including all your dating sim relationships with whatever LI you have?

Did they promise it would be a happy sunshine ending where you get to save the world and get the girl and live happily ever aftter as the hero of ferel...I mean the galaxy?

The poll is fine. It's not a representation of the population of ME3 owners, but even so, the probability that a majority of owners liked the ending is zero. I doesn't matter if some people voted more than once. Have you taken statistics before? Go look at the fan reviews here and tell us how many people liked the ending. Go look at the reviews everywhere on the internet.

Also, you really color your commentary with a lot negative conclusions. Stupid? Crapped on? Desperately? You should be more fact based.

[AnttiV]

Moondoggie wrote...

I'm not sure how bombarding a company with calls and emails is being respectfull. That's like telling suicide bombers to go kill people to get their groups own way but "be respectful"

How is showing you that what i said was true "going to extreames?"

Ehh. That is actually one of the oldest and more respectful forms of contacting people. It was widely used in the world before this thing we call "the internet". "Bombarding" is not the reason, or the cause or the aim. "Bombarding" is just a consequence of the fact that there are multiple people wanting to express their opinions.

While I'm not saying they should do this, I can perfectly well understand the logic behind it. When you think about it, it is EXACTLY what old(er) people do when they have a disagreement with a company - they send a letter. Because that is exactly what they have been though to do for the last couple of hundred years.

Sending hate mail is an ENTIRELY differrent things, and I'm sure nobody wants that. But writing a respectful letter explaining your opinion and send that to the company responsible, well, I can't see what is wrong with that. If you opposed said movement, please tell me what is the alternative. Should we just "rant" on the forums?

[philippe willaume]

InvincibleHero wrote...

That is a fine question but people are taking their inch and trying to stretch it for a mile. BW has always controlled the story and Shepard. They created and breathed life into the character and franchise. It is their right to end things how they want. Gamers do not have a right to write the games and make character changes. If BW caves it will be a blow against any artistic integrity of any media producing company ever. You cannot let the people dictate changes to an already finished IP. Do you get to write your own endings to movies or Tv shows or even change the characters given? Nope. You can have an opinion on disliking the endings and that's fine , but to demand changes and holler and kick a tantrum to get your way is not very mature or sensible. Does BW dictate how you do things in your daily life do they tell you how to do your job at work? No way. You have no right to dictate theirs.

I cannot understand the hate people going it was great until the final ten minutes so this game is trash? So your last bite of lasagna wasn't as piping hot and maybe a little watery from sitting does that make the meal less satisfying? Are you going to never touch lasagne again? Of course not. People are going wild with drama and entitlement mentality. They delivered on most accounts a very fine game which is the job we expect companies to do.

Your job is to buy it or not period. If you don't like it fine as all products have the caveat they aren't for everyone. They owe you nothing and they could have ended the series at ME2 if they wanted. Do you want to be so demanding a fan base BW would gladly ditch you? I think it has reached that point. I would not blame them if they turned a deaf ear to fan demands now. They listened and gave things all these years yet that only increased your appetite for more and bolder demands. You are not armchair game designers no matter how much you want to be. Your job is product consumer period. If you don't play the game again that is your loss from self-inflicted wounds.


Fair game is bugs and poor quality of things like graphics , and gameplay and even story critique. Demanding an ending patch is so over the top spoiled-rotten territory. It is fine to give feedback and likes and dislikes but keep a proper perspective. You are demanding what you want and do not care what BW the actual owner/creator desires. That is egotistical by any measure.


I personally would have preferred some other possible endings being available, but I will be cool with their decision to end their franchise , character, and IP how they choose. I intend to buy it when I have the means to do so. The author has all the rights of creation and that is the natural order of things. Yes I have read in detail the endings so I know what is in store for my playthroughs. Still doesn't dent my desire to play ME 3 in the least.


I empathize not liking something, but once you make your distaste known then that should be the end of it. I've played many good games with bad endings, but I put it in perspective that is a small part of the game. If I enjoyed it up until then then it was a great game and if it had replayability then I would play it again. You have to ask the opposite if you got the ending you wanted and the rest of the game was bad would that elevate the game to game of the year? Ummm no obviously. So fan demands are based on the premise that over inflates the importance of the ending. You didn't get what you wanted so deal with it like any other disappointment that you have no control over. Move on and let the anger and hate go. You only punish yourself for harboring such negative emotions beyond a reasonable time.


ME 3 was a product of many hours of work by many dedicated people and we shouldn't lose sight of that. They are fellow humans with feelings like anyone and to see people trash their hard work because you didn't get what you wanted is a head hanging moment. They should be proud of their work. Have you been praising what you liked or spending more time trashing the small part of the game you didn't?

You are not wrong, but I think you kind of missed the point.
To start with I work as an IT consultant, and it does not mater how long or how much of my little heart I spend on a project I am judged on what I deliver. And that the way it should be.
 
I totally agree with creative direction being what BW sees fit however. Their job is to give an anding that stand on its own leg and cater for the different play through especially since that was one the selling point of ME3.
 
It does not mean taking in account every several decision across the 3 games, but it does mean that from creative direction taken they needed to take in a count mores possible play through. IE not having different endings per se, but telling the ending according to the play through.
 
Most of us are not after a Disney ending.  And in fact we are ready to pay for the extra content.
 
The ending as it is, does not really makes sense for several types of play through. It does in some case, as  it did for my super paragon siding with every misunderstood species so the green ending is spot on.
 
So either you don’t let me choose the blue and the red ending or if I can choose either of those it need to match I have made in the game that concern the path I am choosing
 
Ie for example
If you take the red ending and that you have humanised a certain AI  and sided with particulat lamp post
A few flashback/future with the said AI  dying contrasted with her telling you that she kissed someone then the N7lamppost  saying I or the lamposts  coming to the rescue contrasted with boy dying in the into.
Before we actually taked the red route  a look at the other options and we see the one  as turning into a husk and the other as ending up as the elusive man.
 
As the Normandy cut scene does not make sense with the way the ending is told,
And we need to know what happened to the companions, it has much shep story as theirs and they deserve a nice offing.
 
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 13 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

[MedhiaNox]

I'll apologize for not reading your post - but the answer is really simple. They're entitled to the same things everyone else is... which is nothing at all.

You are either fortunate enough to receive - you worked to obtain - or were filth enough to take.

Not a single thing is "deserved" as if there is some cosmic checks and balances weighing your material worth.

[Wise Men]

AJRimmsey wrote...

game buyers are entitled to whatever they pay for.

if they buy a game they are entitled to a game
if they dont like the game then they are then entitled to ebay it.

iff however they think they are entitled to then demand the games changed to cater for them they are simply dilusional

they are also entitled to create thier own game catered to thier own tastes.
but good luck selling it.
as they will fast find they are a very small minority facing others demanding they change that game to the others demands.

Well stated. I really don't know where gamers get this warped sense of entitlement. In fact, it seems that we are the only consumer body with it. It's quite unreasonsable.

It seems to me, In all other forms of media or entertainment, It's quite simple, either a consumer decides to buy a product or not. But gamers seem to be the only ones who continue to buy said product but then complain about how it was packaged. It's doesn't make much sense to me.

I say, we need to lose this warped sense of entitlement. The developer has a product. We get to decide to purchase the product or not. We also get to influence the direction and some areas of development, to a degree. We don't get to decide every facet of how it's developed. And I feel we should be ok with that. Seriously, who DEMANDS that a company rewrite their body of work? It reminds me of the movie "Misery". (and that's pretty sad).

[byzantine horse]

Blayzereborn wrote...

We're entitled to a story that doesn't blatantly contradict itself.

No you are not. Give JK Rowling a call and tell her that you demand a different ending to the last Harry Potter book else you will sue her. I can tell you before hand that she won't listen.

[AnttiV]

MedhiaNox wrote...

I'll apologize for not reading your post - but the answer is really simple. They're entitled to the same things everyone else is... which is nothing at all.

You are either fortunate enough to receive - you worked to obtain - or were filth enough to take.

Not a single thing is "deserved" as if there is some cosmic checks and balances weighing your material worth.

That is really your opinion? The nobody is entitled to ANYTHING? Let's do business together.. if you send me money, I promise to bring world piece, give you the moon from the sky and drown you in gold and jewelry. However, you're not entitled to receive anything so I'm really just keeping you money, thank you. Have a nice day

[Ex0dus_]

I like how people suffer from functional analphabetism nowadays. It feels like people don't even want to understand each other anymore, but deliberately wanting to spark conflict.

[AnttiV]

InvincibleHero wrote...
....
You have to ask the opposite if you got the ending you wanted and the rest of the game was bad would that elevate the game to game of the year? Ummm no obviously.
...

The generalizing. You can't know all people. I, for example, am part of those people who would think that a very good ending does indeed elevate the game to a better status. There are multiple games in history that I have played, not liked (at all, in some cases) but the memories from them are that they were very good games because the ending was awesome/beautiful/epic/just generally well written and fitting.

Not exactly that, but there is a whole game series that I have played solely for the characters/story even though in game mechanics I absolutely hate them. I hate to play games like those, but he story/characters/ending makes it worthwhile to drag myself through the mechanical gameplay.

To those who know:
"At last, the masks had fallen away. The strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift given to me; more powerful than the sword that now held his soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me; the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion: hope."

[Captain Arty]

Consumers have the option to complain all they want. They have the option to petition for whatever they want. The producer has the option to try and please the customer or to ignore them.

I've been in movies that were so bad that I walked out halfway through and demanded a refund. In a couple cases I've gotten it, because the theater knew there was a chance they'd lose my return business if they didn't.

A friend told me a great example. Imagine the fury of Harry Potter fans, if at the end of the last book, the ghost of Dumbledore appears, tells Harry there's a secret ancient conspiracy to periodically control wizards, that he's been wrong all along, and that to kill Voldemort Harry must die, taking all magic out of the world with him. It's completely up to Rowling to write such an ending, but she would have dealt with massive backlash. All the readers that spent time reading 7 books would be pissed that they spent that time reading a book with such a sloppy, nonsensical ending.

[MedhiaNox]

@AnttiV: Why would I send you money?

Do not complain to me when your sense of entitlement is met with disappointment - it was your perspective that was incorrect - not "the universe which didn't give you what you were entitled to".

[Ben Shep]

AJRimmsey wrote...

game buyers are entitled to whatever they pay for.

if they buy a game they are entitled to a game
if they dont like the game then they are then entitled to ebay it.

iff however they think they are entitled to then demand the games changed to cater for them they are simply dilusional

they are also entitled to create thier own game catered to thier own tastes.
but good luck selling it.
as they will fast find they are a very small minority facing others demanding they change that game to the others demands.

I agree 100%

[kbct]

Again, we aren't entitled to a new ending. However, we have the right to request a new ending. It's important for people to be vocal about their dissatisfaction if they expect any chance of changing the future.

If some people come across as entitled or demanding, then oh well. You can't stop it.

[knightnblu]

You are greatly oversimplifying. By reducing the argument to good vs. bad you ignore the multitude of criticisms regarding the endings. I have written many posts regarding the endings of ME3 and I have detailed significant moral issues, logical fallacies, and plot holes that renders the ending incapable of holding water. I believe these criticisms to be legitimate. Does BioWare have to listen to any of it? Not at all, but it is also readily apparent in ME3 that they do with the nods to various posts acknowledged.

With that knowledge firmly in mind people are again voicing their opinions regarding what they feel to be an error. Particularly in view of the book debacle, the leaked scripts, the leaked game play beta, etc., because all of this means that the company has been locked in a frenetic push to fight fires, make product, and get it out the door by deadline. In such an environment things get missed.

Was ME3 a great game right up until the final ten minutes? Absolutely, in my opinion BioWare handed us an incredible cap to the series. Then...well you can read my complaints about it in other threads. My point is this, the complaints against the ending are legitimate and not merely simple grousing by fans who hate to see Shepard's story arc end. Is it true that folks like to complain? Sure, but that is not the case with the ME3 ending.

[InvincibleHero]

The Razman wrote...

You're absolutely right.

The entitlement comes from wanting to have a "good" ending choice. When people say they don't want to play the Mass Effect games anymore, it's because they know everything they do won't change the depressingness of the ending. That's the same with everything that has a truly emotional, depressing ending ... I remember not wanting to watch Blackadder Goes Forth for ages because the final moments of the last episode were so sad, it coloured the rest of the experience, knowing what was waiting for them at the end.

I'm proud of Bioware for doing something so bold. I don't want them to change it just because some people feel entitled to have a "good" ending, with all the loose ends tied up.

I'd like to know how that differs between replaying multiple times and getting the two choices in ME and ME 2. No matter how you played those games the end choice was independant also.

[Ben Shep]

byzantine horse wrote...

Blayzereborn wrote...

We're entitled to a story that doesn't blatantly contradict itself.

No you are not. Give JK Rowling a call and tell her that you demand a different ending to the last Harry Potter book else you will sue her. I can tell you before hand that she won't listen.

Lol, I didnt like the ending to lost so i might give jj abrhams a call ask him to change it!

[Mr.House]

I'm tired of this entitlement bs. How is wanting a ending that makes sense and does not ruin the series entitlement? We paid for these products, we helped co write these stories with our choices, we gave Shepard life, we grew attached to the crew and characters, so yes wanting an ending that makes sense, brings closure and is not complete bs is not to much to ask for.

[Wise Men]

MedhiaNox wrote...

@AnttiV: Why would I send you money?

Do not complain to me when your sense of entitlement is met with disappointment - it was your perspective that was incorrect - not "the universe which didn't give you what you were entitled to".

You beat me to it.

[Cartims]

I have an opinion, I didn't like the ending...loved the trilogy however..
It's not entitlement. it's my OPINION.
Now I will go play something else....this is over for me....bye.

[rabidsmurf]

AnttiV wrote...

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

I don't think gamers are entitled to more as, say, cinema visitors.

Both had the opportunity to hear critics review the medium before they bought the ticket / the game, but in the end it is their own decision to watch / play it..

That's actually a big part of the outrage here. There are multiple reports and interviews with the people responsible for ME3 telling about things that are clearly NOT in the final product.

What if you go into the cinema, say, to watch "Return of the Jedi" (I hope you've seen it, otherwise my explanation kinda sucks). You've read reports pre-release that the ending is spectacular and the story will have a definitive conclusion, Darth Vader and Luke have an epic fight and even the Emperor takes part in it.

Then you go see said movie. At the very end, where luke grabs the lightsaber from the Emperor's chair, the scene changes and a hologram of an evok walks in, explains that at the very start of a New Hope, when luke comes out of his uncle's house he actually went into coma and everything that happened was a dream. Then he shoots you in the face and the movie ends.

You think you'd be happy, then?

I agree with this.  We paid for a complete game.  The ending feels like a hook to push more DLC down our throats, instead of just putting in the game where it belongs.